Where to invest the most in the "digital chain"?

Room first

DAC second

Main reason is the DAC is the brain of the digital system, it can not only send  a streamer signals to your amp/preamp but also a CD transporter.

I am loving this thread already as the emphasis is on best components first and then Ethernet and USB "treatments" second.

That said my system does sound glorious with some well-chosen Ethernet, USB and Power upgrades.

It's always amusing when someone posts a completely outrageous scenario and the audiophools pile on thinking it was serious. 

Bravo !!! You got these phools to believe you spent almost $700 on an ethernet switch, thousands on power supplies and wires,  and less than $200 on a DAC.

always like to start my day with a hearty laugh.... thanks

The best investment is the first stage of the digital chain. That would be in the bank before you spend it.

The streamer lives in the digital world while the DAC has the important job of processing the digital input and converting it to an analog signal that gets output to the preamp (or to the amplifier if internal VC), and it must do all of that without adding noise or interference.  

Room correction is really the only thing that matters, and the more that can be done there, the better. Now perhaps I’ll be accused of being an elitist or a snob, but my Trinnov Altitude 16 has solved the problem of audio reproduction.

Nothing in the audio chain except quality room correction can compensate for what your room takes away - and this effect dwarfs any other minor improvement that can be made. It’s so large, I would go so far as to say it almost doesn’t matter what else is hooked up until you’ve done that.

Of course, my suggestion should be taken in context. Quality room correction is not cheap, unfortunately. Perhaps you can get good mileage by treating early reflections using physical room treatments (and don't forget about the ceiling and floor...). I haven’t tried that myself, but there is more than one way to skin a cat...

Quality room correction is not cheap, unfortunately

I have a Trinnov too, but you don’t need to spend that kind of money to get room correction. It is fairly inexpensive to create and use convolution filters that can be used within Roon, HQplayer , and many other software packages. Way too complex for a tutorial here but here’s a start

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/accurate-sound-launches-multichannel-hang-loose-convolver-r1140/

@herman

"It's always amusing when someone posts a completely outrageous scenario and the audiophools pile on thinking it was serious. 

Bravo !!! You got these phools to believe you spent almost $700 on an ethernet switch, thousands on power supplies and wires,  and less than $200 on a DAC".

herman - Absolutely spot on m8. What a phool the OP must be.

@daveteauk I don't respond to trolls but I can guarantee that you would not speak to me like that face to face. At least not twice. Go and learn some manners then come back when you are ready to be a grown up.

I invested in the streamer and it was worth it.  DAC too, but  that was more based on listening to it.   The streamer decision was easy after weighing what Aurender does / can do .   You can't recover lost DATA  after the source , so I think of the streamer as a modern day "Transport"   

I was waiting for streamers to mature a little and bought an Aurender N200.  It's a kick ass machine.    Love it so far.

@oddiofyl great comment. As I'm learning as I go I've already started researching and saving for a better network transport and DAC. I have my eye on a few options but will take a look at the Aurender.  

Consider KEF LS60 wireless or the smaller monitor LS50 II and get rid of alot of boxes and cables and enjoy fully powered digital streaming.

Interesting but I'm not ready to drop £6k on a pair of speakers. I am planning to do some A/B testing tomorrow against my upgraded wireless router to see if all the Ethernet magic in the chain has any discernable benefit. If I can't hear a serious difference I will be returning / selling a lot of components!

Since your streaming, look at the weak points of streaming before changing DAC’s or room treatments.  The SOtM cable 7u is great.  Adding an EtherRegen (needs an LPS and better yet a Master-clock also) to use as a “moat” and using the 7u between it and the streamer will give you a cleaner feed.  I have the 7u and also have the older ENO filter.  The 7u is better.  I have 3 switches and use the EE 8switch as the first buffer from the house Router’s noise.

USB, Ethernet or other Digital Cables are very influential to SQ.

I have an ifi Purifier, a dozen PS Audio Noise Harvesters and 3 Akiko Corelli’s.  I find the more noise suppression I add the sweeter the sound in terms of background blackness.  If you can demo a Corelli you might be very surprised at what it does.  The thing about noise is you don’t hear it until its gone, it’s not like distortion or jitter.

Jitter is the bane of digital and reclocking the USB and Ethernet is the starting point.

Depending on your DAC’s inputs using a DDC to avoid USB may be beneficial.

Keeping all SMPS’s or LED/fluorescent lights off for the electrical leg you audio is on will greatly reduce electrical noise.  Shutting down/ unplugging electrical equipment like computers, any SMPS’s in the house ( if you look you will find them in every room) can’t hurt either.

Keeping unused audio gear off like a phono pre amp or CD player.

Separating your digital and analog gear on dedicated lines keeps the digital noise out of the analog.

Having done some initial listening tests this evening between Wi-Fi and the very complicated (and expensive) Ethernet path my conclusion is that Wi-Fi is just as good as over £1k's worth of Ethernet toys.

I plan to do some more tests tomorrow but I'm very pleased everything is still returnable! Now that £1k can be redeployed into a new DAC to experiment with.

You can’t recover lost DATA after the source , so I think of the streamer as a modern day "Transport"

While this is true, it is not a reason to spend more on a streamer. Every streamer, every ethernet switch, every cable, passes bit perfect data unless you choose an option to somehow manipulate it with DSP. Streamers are computers. Computers do not lose data.

If you are hearing differences it is not because any data was lost

Jitter is the bane of digital and reclocking the USB and Ethernet is the starting point.

. Data is sent in packets. The DAC does not use the clock from the USB or the Ethernet so reclocking the Ethernet and USB has absolutely no bearing on any jitter in the DAC.

If you are hearing differences it is not because of jitter from the source

I believe the DAC makes the biggest difference. I’m using a Musician Pegasus DAC, which uses .005 ladder resistor, the same accuracy as the Denefrips Pontus II and Terminator. I’m using a SMSL SD-9 streamer wireless which every type of connection to a DAC possible, including I2S to a Musician Pegasus DAC. I’ve owned a Topping D90 MQA DAC and while it sounds good, the Pegasus sounds analog to me and has me putting up the Topping DAC for sale. The Pegasus costs 1100 USD, and is worth every dime. The SMSL streamer is 399 and decodes MQA.

It sounds like you are at the starting levels of hifi. There aren't that many dacs for £1000. A lot of the models audiophiles recommend cost $3k or more. I have decided to be happy with what I have and wait a few years before upgrading. Then I may be able to find a nice, used dac for a good price.

If you want something now the Okto Dac8 has gotten great reviews and it has a streamer built in. Could be a step up for you.

In the interests of transparency I've spent the last several hours listening to a number of pieces of music that have passages of silence as well as single instruments and acoustic vocal tracks - with these on repeat I've slowly removed a number of components from the "digital path".

The end state I have landed on is that the Wi-Fi circuit in the Zen Stream is more than good enough for a low noise signal (hence removing the Cisco 2960, EE 8Switch and SotM iSO CAT7 and assorted high-end Ethernet cables).

The connection between the Zen Stream and the Zen DAC v2 is now just the supplied USB cable and an ifi iPurifer 3.

Removing the iPurifier and re-adding it yielded the most noticeable improvement in SQ with audible noise on an MQA Studio recording of Adagio for Strings without the USB filter, and near-perfect silence with it added in.

It is worth noting that I have recently upgraded my Wi-Fi router to an ultra-powerful TP-Link DECO XC80-5g which reaches every corner of my three-story house with rock-solid high-speed connectivity.

I have my eye on several potential upgrades to the Streamer and DAC in the near future, with a preference for a Streamer that supports Qobuz natively as well as Tidal with MQA decoding.

I appreciate all the responses, even the hostile ones as they are always a test of ones self restraint ;)

I have no filters or anything special "cleaning " the ethernet.   Just the N200 connected via SPDIF so yes, the streamer is the clock.    

The N200 with my DAC sounds great,  it's much better than the Vault.  Like I said before,  demo a really good streamer and it's unlikely you'll want to take it out.

I purchased DB Audio modified Mac mini and his DAC with all options. I also have an Audio Research CD player. The Audio Research and the DB Audio system are close but my preference goes to the Mac mini + DAC. I have used a streamer linked to the inboard DAC in my Classe pre amp and its not even close. 

My opinion is much like the rest of this stuff, don't use any weak link. There is no substitute for top quality across the entire chain.

@slbjbb now that is super interesting, thanks for the insight!

@jabbaman : for what its worth, my DB Audio digital front end has a Morrow audio level 6 digital cable as well as a level 6 power cord the DAC. The Mac mini is off grid powered by a 12 volt car battery. https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=158212.0

Each step was a clear, audible improvement in detail, focus and soundstage. 

I am coming at this from a slightly different angle. My Mac MCD500 has a great DAC, based on the ESS Sabre Reference 8-channel D/A converter in Stereo Quad Balanced mode.

My Node 2i, while competent, was the weakest link in my chain. I researched multi room players (love playing the music room and backyard at volume) and decided on the Cambridge Audio CXN v2. Better in every regard to the Node2i: tighter bass, smoother, nuanced, dynamic range improvement. Still go to vinyl for serious listening, but am enjoying the relatively modest upgrade immensely.

I got big improvements with ifi spdif ipurifier 2 and 2 meraki routers cascaded by fiber. From my bluesound node n130.

@anzaanimalclinic .  I read your post with interest.  I've just invested in the Sotm 7u, based on many positive reviews and comments of the Sotm cable family.  I'm hoping it will be my primary ethernet cable that feeds my Zenith Mk3.  I realise there are many others I could A/B.  However, the ones which interested me (FTA, Laboga) are not easily available or returnable.

I also have the Sotm ISOCAT 7.  I did seek the advice from Sotm before buying the 7u.  Naturally, they stated that the 7u cable is significantly better than the cheaper 7.  They also advised that the ISOCAT go before the 7u.  They're actually pretty good with comms.  May Park was very responsive to my questions.

So, I'll have my very non-audiophile Netgear Orbi satellite feeding the ISOCAT.  I noted you have a number of switches, including the EE.  Can I ask if you tried the EtherRegen, or a decent Fibre bridge?   I have my eye on the ADOT fibre package at FutureShop.

@donnylovely - that is very interesting indeed.

I have replaced my Amp and DAC and that has resulted in great improvements. I'm currently using USB into my Ares II DAC with an ifi USB iPurifier3. I have tested with and without the iPurifier3 and it definitely helps remove noise. I have also tested with a very expensive USB cable versus something for around £30 and noticed no difference once the iPurifier3 is at work.

As a continual tweaker, I have got a few components on order and will experiment with them in various combinations:

Audiolabs DC Blocker (will test on my Rega amp and the Denafrips DAC - may end up with two, one for each, or none if I can't hear a positive difference)

ifi GND Defender (as above)

ifi iSilencer+ - for the source end of the USB connection

Audioquest Cinnamon Coax - will try this instead of USB from the Zen Stream

ifi SP-DIF iPurifier 2 - will try it with the AQ Coax (with an iPower X for the 5V input)

Douk U2 Pro DDC - will try this with and without all of the above tweaks to see what gives in this super-budget device (I have a second spare iPower X 5V for this though reports say it is better with USB power)

An Intel NUC for ROCK - I want to evaluate Roon as I want to use Qobuz and Tidal in harness. Plus Tidal connectivity is intermittently glitchy to the Zen Stream.

If I like Roon I will try it direct to the DAC both via USB and via the Douk DDC - to see if I can eliminate the Zen Stream altogether. I will also probably buy a better PSU for the NUC.

Other than the NUC, everything is returnable (though I got the NUC for less than the barebones unit sells for new so I'm sure I can resell it).

I also have a pair of Cisco 2960's spare with SFPs and a short fibre optic cable that I can put in front of the NUC if necessary.

Believe it or not, my end game is to have as few boxes as possible but I want to experiment to find the best SQ with the "budget" kit.

If the DDC makes a big difference I will almost certainly try a Gustard U-18, Singxer SU-6 or Denafrips IRIS (if I can find an IRIS!)

With all of the above said, I'm also very interested in the new ifi Neo Stream but if Roon works well for me I will try to remove another network device and go direct to DAC. However, I suspect the galvanic isolation of either Wi-Fi to the Zen Stream or the Optibox into the Neo Stream will really help (plus the Neo Stream removes the need for a DDC and Coax/USB tweaks!)

@lollipopguild - I've actually removed Ethernet entirely from the path. I have upgraded my Wi-Fi router quite significantly and switched to the Wi-Fi circuit in the Zen Stream which sounds superb (and Wi-Fi is about as 'isolated' as you can get compared to Ethernet!)

So all of my Ethernet purchases have been returned except for my 2960s.

@jabbaman what router and wifi circuit did you use? Do you have a link to the mods? 

In my system the 3d sound stage dissappears over wifi. With one modded meraki 220, it’s kinda there, but with two, that is where the magic happens.

I've implemented a TP-Link DECO XC80-5G and it is superb. The Wi-Fi circuit is built-in to the ifi Zen Stream. 

J

hi @jabbaman 

I would like to say you missed out 1 more 2 more on the chains between Zen Stream & Zen Dac. 

it is iDefender + 5V iPower-X for your Wireworld USB cable. that really shine the ipurifier3 to the max level because of the iDefender. 

@jorjlien you are probably right however I have now implemented a DDC between the Zen Stream and my (new) Denafrips Ares II DAC with a basic Startech USB cable into the DDC and a high-quality Audioquest Coax from the DDC to the DAC.

I have experimented with a variety of cables and purifiers in the path and have sent them all back now I have the DDC in place. As a result, I have a better DDC on order to see what is possible here.

@jabbaman 

Ares ii ya need DDC, but DDC need a real good power cord too. 

@jorjlien it does seem that a DDC makes a positive difference. I'm using a budget one at present which is USB powered and sounds pretty good. I have a Gustard U18 coming which has an internal LPS. I have a spare quality IEC lead waiting for it. 

@jabbaman 

yes the power supply does the major job for the whole thing, get the power cord with the noise filter as well. 

The power cord will go to the dedicated digital gang lead of high quality with a two AC purifiers. Power noise shouldn't be a problem!