Which would you choose; Pass 250.8, arc 75SE or luxman m900u?

Luxman in the blink of an eye.

@erik_squires I already have the GIK acoustics treatments and they transformed my room in an incredibly positive way. However, I was trying to be audacious and put in a big floor stander into my very small room. Thus the investigation into DSP preamps to go along with the GIK treatments. However, like I mentioned above the Luxman was so good that I will get that first and fit the speakers afterwards. I most likely won’t be able to fit in a floor stander. I will try with a home demo of the Paradigm Person 3F but in the likely case it won’t work there are many monitors that I can select.

So farI have heard the following monitors that would fit my room which I think sound good to great:

Harbeth - https://harbeth.co.uk/special-editions/c7es-3.php
KEF LS50 or REFERENCE 1
TAD ME1

A lot more choices available that I have not contemplated since I have been looking at floor standers prior to my eureka movement with the Luxman’s.

BTW - I have not spent any cash yet on my system. So glad I did not since I would have gone a different way prior to my Luxman audition.

Jump on a Pass 250.8 great sounding amp.

Hi @yyzsantabarbara

I own the Luxman 507ux. I totally hear where you are going with this, since this amp did the same for me, but I do suggest that another way to extend your speaker’s range is great room acoustics. 

For a fraction of what you spent on your preamp/amp, I’d spend some money with GIK Acoustics. Great advice, and biggest bang for the buck.


Over and over I’ve heard good room acoustics make speakers sound bigger and better.


Best,

E

you may also want to try the dartzeel amplifier there is one available used here on audiogon (no I am not selling mine)....has the same special solid state but not solid state sounding qualities and if you can pick up used ends up being cheaper than the luxman....unless you can a bargain on the luxman new.....there is a recent newer version of the dartzeel but that is super pricey....the older one is upgradeable but upgrade pricey....anyway food for thought...obviously since you heard the luxman its the safer choice but unless you have bass hungry speakers almost universal acclaim of the dartzeel...btw I also own pass monoblocks 260.8 in a different system and they great too and run about 30 watts class A....I often dont go out of Class A.....can often find a demo version of that through reno hifi for about 11K which is pretty great deal....

I went yesterday and listened to the Luxman m900u amp and c900u preamp. The reason for this second visit to the dealer (Excel Audio in Newport Beach CA) was to determine if I needed to get the c900u preamp or if a lesser preamp with a DAC and room correction would work with the m900u amp. Something like the following preamp:

Anthem STR preamp
Linn SELEKT DSM
Lyngdorf 3400 (using only preamp section of integrated)

Long story short, I have changed my opinion of how to buy a system for my small room. Get the electronics before the speakers. The Luxman gear was so good that even with lesser speakers ($16K vs $5K) the sound was better with the Luxman.

I am even tempted to run the Luxman m900u + c900u with the KEF LS50’s I own if I cannot make a bigger speaker work without DSP. I was totally against using a monitor speaker because I wanted the bigger bass with the floor stander. However, that logic is out the window with the Luxman gear. Everything I played through them sounded special.

in all candor it’s always about the first watt quality. luxman and ref 75se have that in spades. then comes the mojo which they knock out of park. fwiw

I have the Pass Labs 30.8 amplifier (class A) and it sounds great for the pop and jazz music I listen to. If I listened to classical music I would probably own a tube amp. 

Without wanting to engage in regurgitated info already posted, the OP will ultimately want to select one or two of these amps for audition in his home system. All we can do is provide informed guidance to him. 

@celander I agree. We need more of what you are recommending and much, much more shared (including additional context) so that those reading can make choices, with higher degrees of confidence and informed processing. Very Well Said. Thank you!

David, I simply recommend taking all the input to heart. And factor in bias to the extent possible. The closer the owner’s gear setup is to mine, the more I’m likely to weigh that contributor’s input favorably for the reasons set forth below.

Here is the problem as I see it. We all have different listening environments. We all have different gear setups, ranging from power conditioning (or not) to power cables to IC’s to gear and speaker cables (if needed for those not having active speakers, like I do for my ATC SCM20-2A’s which I love owing to their compactness) to speakers.

When I make posts to threads about specific gear, like I have about Jay’s Audio CDT2 MK2 transport on TeaJay’s thread, I list all the gear and accessories used in my opinion. Regrettably, the biggest factor, the acoustic space, is left out for obvious reasons.

An owner endorsing gear they own is simply bias confirmation.

@celander   I get your point, but what do you recommend?

It's a journey for most of us that [hopefully] moves our understanding and knowledge forward. Sharing where one is, at that point in time, and the choices made along the way [for better or for worse] seems reasonable and fair. 

An owner endorsing gear they own is simply bias confirmation. That in of itself should trigger a red flag in the minds of prospective purchasers. Are such endorsements valuable? Sure they are. Are they more valuable than anyone else’s input? I doubt it. 

@pistha It's hard to describe but along with less heat (Pass amps are power hungry and I had to turn the thermostat down when the 250.5 was in system. no kidding ;-) ) the biggest change I heard is a fuller type of sound. Pass's midrange was sweet and clear but the mental image I had then when listening to my system was that there's was something missing, colors being washed out if I can use this picture analogy. Colors with the ARC were definitely fuller and more saturated in comparison (mid bass and midrange were definitely better). I could hear the synergy we are talking about. I guess one will get the same experience with running a XP10 with a X250.5. It's just that I had an ARC preamp not a Pass. Please note that I do not have a REF 75 SE. It's the regular version (not SE) but I replaced the KT120s with KT150s (big difference and part of the upgrade to SE). If you can get a factory SE, it's even better. Hope this helps, as I said it's hard to put in words all those differences but I purchased my REF 75 3 years ago and still remember my initial reaction when I hooked it up: "ahhhh got it!" I was -and am still - quite happy with my move. 

Quite the contrary, I do listen to those who have spent their hard earned cash on a product - like I have.  

I do not however trust a salesman who just picked up a new line that is suddenly the end all be all now that they carry it.  Where was all the praise for Krell before they could sell it to me?  That's where my BS detector goes off.

And I’m sure the OP (or any other causal reader) can discern that, too. You seem to discount the power of endorsement by an owner having spent hard-earned money on their gear. 

Certainly you can see the difference between a consumer who has a different opinion and a dealer trying to hard sell the OP, right?  If you can't then you may want to spend some time thinking about it.

@hk_fan, so dealers are D-bags yet owners are not for engaging in the same activity? It seems to me that the manufacturers and dealers who engage in self-promotion are not guaranteed any product sales for doing so.  

@guyl - good to know you found the move from X250.5 to Ref 75 rewarding! Perhaps I should consider that move. I spent so much time talking to ARC and Pass before I made the decision to pair my Ref 5 SE with the X250.5 I was initially discouraged by the 20K min required i/p impedance that ARC expects. They pretty much said that thats a statement that isnt necessarily valid anymore. Apparently the ref 5's o/p impedance doesnt swing much beyond 1500 ohms and a 20K i/p imedance on the Pass was more than sufficient. Curious - what improved when you went from X250.5 to Ref 75? Thanks!

@guyl, +1 for your impedance matching insight. I have a new thread devoted to that topic (again).

Yes, manufacturers often voice their gear together. Once, the late John Ulrick of Infinity Systems and Spectron Audio fame told me to keep my Dunlavy SC-IVa’s with my Spectron Audio Digital One Class D amp because John Dunlavy voiced his SC speakers with that amp as one of his go to amps. 

For the even more enlightened, taking a thread completely off topic and steering it to products you represent that the OP never had ANY interest in - will result in readers criticism... and rightly so.

This crosses the line between providing information and being a D-bag.

@celander You are right. Impedance matching is particularly important and I've learned the hard way that mixing components that are great on paper but do not mix well does not provide the optimal setup. Of course, great combinations can be found even when components are not from the same company but like you said, gear coming from the same place is expected to sound great. It also help 'solve' the "what if" problem as what you get is what was intended in term of synergy and you are no longer wondering how the system would sound if you were to change a component in the chain. At least it worked for me as I do not have the same sense of urgency to make a move as before. If I wanted a different sound, it is very likely I would have to change the whole setup and go a different route. Anyway, some people may disagree with my statement but for me, finding a combination I like helped me focus more on listening to music than to my components/system :-)

@guyl, ARC and others design their gear to work synergistically together. So I’m not surprised you enjoy your ARC combination.

I find nothing wrong with a dealer or manufacturer making a contribution to a thread if they feel it’s warranted. Even if such posts might be perceived as blatant self-promotion, it’s up to the OP to evaluate the content of each post, as well as the reasons why such info might be discounted. Most here are adults, so I’m confident that everyone can discern the content of each post for what it’s worth.

For the enlightened, perceived abuse of another member is usually the reason why posts are called to the attention of moderators for removal. 

I had the Pass 250.5 (not .8) with an ARC REF5 SE and sold it for a REF 75 which I still own. The ARC combo is the best I've heard in my room and I had a few high-end units over the years to compare (Bryston, Classe, Simaudio, Luxman, Pass Labs, etc). Synergy is critical and of course this is facilitated when components are coming from the same brand. I was skeptical initially about the relatively small power number of the ARC amp (75W) but it sounds as powerful as 200W SS amps I had in my room and does have the quality of tubes without the 'disadvantages' (very neutral sound not warm). It's a Stereophile class A if that can help :-) I highly recommend this ARC amp and I've read many times that it sounds better than its bigger brothers in the ARC line (could not confirm that myself though).  

Pass Labs, they are as good if not better than any amps in the price range.  You get a total package.  You will not regret your purchase.

OP: I have the ref5se paired with a pass x250.5. Awesome details from arc matched with the fast and deep x250.5 - I am in heaven! I’ve pondered an all arc system - but fear it might be too clinical. 

@oddiofyl Be careful, your posts will start mysteriously disappearing like mine have been..

Audiotroll can't post without upselling or steering in a sales pitch...  he's right they are the new car saleman of Audiogon....  

OP: while I appreciate your seeking advice about 3 specific brands from the forum, it seems like you need to audition them in your system. All the banter here will not resolve the ultimate question. 

@roxy1927  Thanks.

@audiotroy   Can you and others expand on why an amp with a "recessed midrange" is a good/recommended pairing with "warm speakers?"  Thank You!

the Dali Epicons are warm speakers an amp with a recessed midrange would be a good thing.

Totally agree with Trudat. The OP asked about 3 specific amp brands and this what advise should be given on and not convoluted sales pitch on a totally different brand. Unfortunately this is happening on many threads on Audiogon.

@jetter

Thank you for asking who the "F" I am (saw your post before you edited that out, nice of you to stay classy, they would like you in San Diego)

 I’m a long time lurker who yes, just began posting recently. As for other details, I’m a 40+ year audio enthusiast like many on here. Happen to have a bit more time these days as my kids are out of the house. So, I’ve formulated many opinions over the years on audio, I don’t think they are better or worse than anyone else.

That said, it’s pretty clear not only in this thread, but many others (that I have seen over the years) that many, but not all here are a bit tired of Troy’s self promotion and how he goes about it.

Glad he helped you out. I hope your system brings you joy.

That said, I am interested to hear how power cords, isolation products and more accessories will bring Roxy’s system more excitement.

Roxy what do you mean by excitement?

What is your entire setup including accessories?

Are u using stock power cords, power conditioning, vibration isolation?

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Roxy... what's the budget?

Used OK?

By excitement?  More forward?  More impact?  More detail?

What is your source?

'exciting'

Hegel H30 Nice deep soundstage but as others have said looking for something more exiting. Interesting too that I read in a magazine review certain instruments have less impact on this amp than they would on another amp. I found this to be true!

I would be interested in other suggestions as trudat said to excite my Dalis a bit more which I like a lot and a speaker changer would be too costly and overwhelming at this point.

@roxy1927   For clarification: You have the Dali E 8 for speakers and the ARC R10 as a pre (?). What is your current amp?

No HK_Fan we are the new car salesman of audiogon and we are one of the very few dealers that keeps abreast of the latest gear and keeps bringing in new and exciting products.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Troy is the energizer bunny of self promotion. He's been doing it for years. Lately, the moderators have been deleting my posts re Troy--but they don't delete his promotional posts which either laud his wares or backhand the competition. It is truly a sad outcome.

Like anything audio, it comes down to opinion.

As for overpriced - oh I suspect most of it is!

No question Nelson voices his amps to have a house sound.  I'm a fan, I have a 250.8.  But I try to give some context.  I want a live sound, I listen to rock, blues, reggae.  I like a big sound, I do NOT like every single cymbal to come forward.  But I do like a nice thick midrange, a very coherent sound and my bass a little "hot".  Excitement however - that I do really, really love. I will sacrifice pinpoint imaging for a "live, big sound)

I've heard Dali's, but not my cup of tea so I can not comment there. Good speaker, not for me.

I think the ARC stuff actually punches pretty well for a tube amp. I heard them pushing some DynAudio Contour 30's and they were slamming in the bass.  

Luxman - gorgeous old school stuff.  I think the tone/loudness controls on the preamps are very useful for many.

The amps - way cool looking.  Some of my favorite.  I finally heard them just this past week at a friends house.  Very nice amp, maybe a bit "airy" for my tastes.  Compared to another he had (BAT) the bass wasn't quite as deep, powerful, or punchy.  The highs were more defined and more delicate.

So, I think for the Dali's - either the ARC or Pass might help the excitement level.

(I have a Pass 250.8, XP12, and just acquired some Ohm Walsh 5000's, I really dig the combo but I'll admit its a bit different set-up than many "audiophiles" would use.).  

Or, time to demo some speakers, what amp/pre/source do you have currently Roxy?

I know the ARC75se very well plus the luxman. I’ve never been a fervent ARC guy but it truly is superlative with plenty of slam, extended highs and very detailed with a wonderful midrange. Total high end piece. 
I also know the Luxman amp as well as i have one in my home right now(and the ARC). It too is at the highest level of the other camp, SS.  It’s plenty smooth without giving up an ounce of detail. The unit has under 20hrs on it but still it’s really good. I would call it very transparent and musical but not warm at this point. 
i have a little experience with pass but it’s hardly definitive. i auditioned in home a 250.8 but was not inspired to purchase it. i believe, but it’s just an opinion, that the pass was not as detailed or exciting to listen to as are the Lux and Arc.YMMV
to correct an item from above. the luxman lists for 15k not 19k. most audio gear is overpriced but the m-900u looks the part and has the sound to back it up. it’s a beauty. 
ref 75se’s used or demo for the going rate of 6k or so may be one of the best buys in audio with performance to match anything within its power range. my apologies for being so verbose.

Thanks Jetter it was lovely talking with you.

trudat "The problem I, and many have had is your veiled, and at times not so veiled attempts to promote constantly. Much more so than other dealers out here."

Hey pal, you joined this site 4 days ago, and every one of your post have been criticizing audiotroy. Who are you to tell anyone what problems we have had with him?  

Trudat Audiolabrinth mentioned Krell first we just agreeded that their new gear is great.

As per Dali they do sound a bit warm hence you dont want an overly warm amp