Why do all Mahler recordings seem too bright?

Buy BIS and you will have no problem , by far the best company.

As many have said the Minnesota /Vanska is fantastic as is Karl Neilson .

Ivan Fisher is a strong second .

lowrider57 wrote:  Because some engineers in the heyday of multi mic'ing would place a mic on each individual instrument instead of 2 or 3 per section. Some conductors, particularly Karajan liked to be involved in engineering the production process. He wanted everything micd. 

Yeah, many used to do that.  Less common now and, strangely, even less  (relatively speaking) with multichannel recordings.  The ones that sound best in 5 channels used 5 mics, perhaps with a spot 1-2.

Typically the second movement such as an adagio is well balanced and can sound heavenly. Bruckner wrote such beautiful adagios.

Why do you corelate the number of instruments with the the number of microphones?

Because some engineers in the heyday of multi mic'ing would place a mic on each individual instrument instead of 2 or 3 per section. Some conductors, particularly Karajan liked to be involved in engineering the production process. He wanted everything micd. 

@kr4 I wasn’t addressing brightness in the Ivan Fisher recordings, should have separated the two thoughts. My issue is with many modern day Bruckner digital recordings. There is emphasis on the brass (trumpets and trombones) due to over mic’ing or in the mix. The recordings are not balanced in a ff or fff passage. Adagios are usually well mixed.

I was not addressing brightness in the Fischer recordings of Mahler but giving this as an example of what I think is a well-balanced Bruckner recording. 

The reason I mention Bruckner is due to the large scale orchestra close in size to Mahler. I’ve seen quite a few Bruckner performances where 5 trumpets and 5 trombones are used. That's a lot of microphones being used for recordings.

Why do you corelate the number of instruments with the the number of microphones?

@kr4 I wasn’t addressing brightness in the Ivan Fisher recordings, should have separated the two thoughts. My issue is with many modern day Bruckner digital recordings. There is emphasis on the brass (trumpets and trombones) due to over mic’ing or in the mix. The recordings are not balanced in a ff or fff passage. Adagios are usually well mixed.

The reason I mention Bruckner is due to the large scale orchestra close in size to Mahler. I’ve seen quite a few Bruckner performances where 5 trumpets and 5 trombones are used. That's a lot of microphones being used for recordings.

lowrider57 wrote:  

No, but I've heard the outstanding sonics of his Maher cycle. Will check it out on Qobuz.

The close and multi-micd Bruckner is not always what I consider bright, but the brass section can also be too forward in the mix. They're the loudest instruments and there's no need to emphasize them.

Well, try the second movement to hear what I think of as a perfect balance in the horns in the multichannel version.  (It's even better in a different, unreleased rendering that  I have the privilege to possess!)

Have you heard the Ivan Fischer/BFO Bruckner 7 on Channel Classics?

No, but I've heard the outstanding sonics of his Maher cycle. Will check it out on Qobuz.

The close and multi-micd Bruckner is not always what I consider bright, but the brass section can also be too forward in the mix. They're the loudest instruments and there's no need to emphasize them.

lowrider57 wrote:

May I go off-topic for a moment? I find many of the Bruckner digital recordings bright, and this only applies to the horns. Massed strings sound perfect, but all those mic's on the brass section ruin some performances for me.

Have you heard the Ivan Fischer/BFO Bruckner 7 on Channel Classics?

May I go off-topic for a moment? I find many of the Bruckner digital recordings bright, and this only applies to the horns. Massed strings sound perfect, but all those mic's on the brass section ruin some performances for me.

Anybody else have this issue?

The Sort Kones have an interesting design, it drains vibration and decouples. Nice find, I'd like to try these. 

Thanks to all for the thoughtful discussion.  I’ve been enjoying the MN/Vanska reading of the 2nd and will look for more of this pairing.  

With regard to the brightness issue: I do have an update. 

One of my suspicions was that my system was suffering from microphonic distortion on the peaks.  The other was that my amp was clipping.  I appears to be the former. I borrowed some Nordost Sort Kones to audition and the harshness during peaks is essentially gone.  I’ll be auditioning other solutions to see if this can be further improved.  I now recognize the significant importance of resonance control.  My audio cabinet is really furniture (we’d rather look at a nice cabinet than at audio gear).  I should have been paying more attention here.  

The uniquely large dynamic swings of Mahler brought this to the fore.  

Best to all,

Amen on That !  MN/Vansaka  are Fantastic !

@kr4 thanks for the recommendations! I just listened to the Vanska/Minnesota and it’s much better! I should have tried that one without prompting because I’m often surprised at how much I enjoy both their playing and recordings.

@mgrif104: The Minnesota/Vanska are amazing. Their Beethoven and Sibelius sets get heavy play at my house.

I just bought the MTT/SFSO set "Mahler Project". It came highly recommended from a few friends. I should get it in a few weeks, since it's on back order with the seller I bought it from on Amazon.

I don't know what's going on.  All I can say is that Bernstein recording of the 5th with the Vienna Philharmonic on DGG sounds gorgeous on my system.

@twoleftears: this is so true. That has to be the ne plus ultra of 5ths. In the Adagietto, you can hear the sweat coming down Bernstein's face.

I have an amazing Bernstein story: when I was heading back to college in NY from thanksgiving holiday at my parents' house in the early 70s, I got to the Pittsburgh airport and the Allegheny Airlines agent at the counter (a guy) said to me, "would you like to sit in first class?". Being the son of a steelworker, I said "hell yes!". I got to the plane and walked aboard, and there, sitting in the seat next to mine, was Leonard Bernstein, smoking a cigarette with a cigarette holder, and a big smile on his face. He talked my ear off the whole flight, asked me to call him "Lenny", and gave me his phone number, telling me to call him and come to Avery Fisher Hall to see him. I was NOT a music major, but I sure knew who Leonard Bernstein was.

It wasn't until years later that I figured out that my "upgrade" had been paid by Bernstein, who undoubtedly told the agent to put some young boy in the seat next to him, as I was unaware, when the flight occurred, that Bernstein was bisexual and partial to young white men. Yes, I do tell people that Bernstein tried to bed me. 

@mgrif104, in response to your request for Mahler recording recommendations in your post, I'd like to suggest Ivan Fischer & the Budapest Festival Orchestra's recording of Mahler's 2d Symphony on Channel Classics SACD.  A first-rate performance of a great piece, wonderfully well-recorded.  Also recommendation-worthy -- Fischer/BFO's recording on Mahler's 4th, on Channel as well.  

Also Claudio Abbado's live recording of Mahler's 7th with the Berlin Phil., Ricardo Chailly's studio recording of the Mahler 5th with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, and Maris Janson's live recording of the Mahler 1st, also with the RCO.

I've heard Mahler played live many times, and have probably 60 recordings of his symphonies.  These are some of the best recordings and performances, IMHO.

@lowrider57 

I don’t have any room treatments - But again, I don’t experience brightness or harshness as problematic on most recorded music.  

You may be right that my amp is clipping when I have it turned up a bit so I’ll reconsider that. (Interestingly, I can listen to Beethoven (my favorite) symphonies and piano concertos at full volume without this effect(. But, Mahler does like massed everything and you could well be right that the organ tones underneath the high brass, with added triangle and crash symbols may be too much.  Too much for my amp, too much for my ears. 

I’m still going to explore the micro phonics potentially affecting my gear as that seems logical to me the more I think about it.

Kind regards to all - and thanks for the thoughtful replies.  

I don't think anybody has mentioned treating the room acoustics.

@mgrif104  do you have any room treatments? You should be using some type of absorbion to reduce standing waves. These are the mid to high frequencies and can cause music to sound bright.

And I reread your comment

it’s harsh on the top end when the dynamics are loud. I’m pretty sure it’s not my amp clipping though it sounds like it.  

When I've experienced brightness or harshness in the music it's at all volume levels, not only at loud dynamic peaks. If this is the case, @mapman may be right about your amp clipping. It's being overdriven at at loud volume.

It's well known that in the early days of digital recording and DDD CD's, DGG had some of the worst nails-on-chalkboard digital glare.  But as time went on things improved, and like I say, more recent DGG Mahler sounds fine to me.

Listen to the Ben Zander/ Boston Philharmonic Youth Orchestra recordings of the 6th and the 9th.  Recorded live in Boston Symphony Hall, with, to my ears, no EQ or compression.  Multi miked but mixed to a very naturalistic stereo.  Sounds great on my speakers and my headphones.  The same forces just recorded the 4th and last year performed the 1st.  I am waiting eagerly for the CDs.  I attended all these concerts from a mid-orchestra floor seat.  The kids are allright!  Maestro Z has these young performers rehearsed far more than pro orchestras can, and their skill and enthusiasm are evident in the music they make.

I’m going to place my bet that the issue is a combo of nature of the recording combined with more distortion from amp during louder or more challenging sections of Mahler for example when the pipe organ sucks the amp dry or louder brass sections. I will be surprised if it’s a vibration thing but you never know until you try. Can be multiple factors like that combined and any improvement might help. Power conditioning would be the other area that is worth having a handle on for smoother sound and less fatigue. Also physical isolation of digital components and power amps from the rest is always worth a try. No ICs running alongside power cords? Little details like that.

I also stand by my other comment that many recordings are brighter than they ought to be. Treble energy dissipates in the concert hall. However, the way orchestras are recorded - with a mic at most stands - does not recreate the balance heard mid hall. The mics are capturing what the musician might have heard, but not the audience.

There are (at least) two issues here. First, you are right that treble energy dissipates in the concert hall and, consequently, a good recording must capture that balance and the associated ambiance in order to have any expectation of reproducing the sound realistically in the home. Very few today (for many reasons) are created the way you describe and that’s a good thing.

Second, too many home systems are configured to create a flat response at the listening position without dealing with room acoustics and speaker-room interaction and that can result in a brighter sound than is desirable.

Since you said you’re listening to Hires, you’re either listening to CD or streaming digital.

Not necessarily. I listen mostly to high-resolution files and, whenever possible, in multichannel, as well. That includes the ones I have already mentioned along with a goodly number of direct live mic feeds. In some cases, I can compare the live feed with the commercial release. High-frequency imbalance is rare.

@lowrider57 thanks.

I think you’re right about needing to tame the vibration coming in to my gear. That seems to me to be the most obvious - it’s harsh on the top end when the dynamics are loud. I’m pretty sure it’s not my amp clipping though it sounds like it.  As I don’t have any control for that in place, I’ll start there. My local dealer should be delighted to sell me more gear.

I also stand by my other comment that many recordings are brighter than they ought to be.  Treble energy dissipates in the concert hall. However,  the way orchestras are recorded - with a mic at most stands - does not recreate the balance heard mid hall. The mics are capturing what the musician might have heard, but not the audience.  

Like some others here, I have many wonderful performances of great music performed by stellar ensembles but recorded under the DG label.  The sonics are beyond disappointing.  Fortunately, Qobuz has brought to my chair a fabulous array of alternatives - and I needed help from this group here to sort through them to find some that are better balanced.  

 Best,

@pwerahera 

You're welcome. It's unfortunate that DG had many of the greatest talent and performances and were unable to achieve the SQ of Decca, Philips, etc.

Regarding Levine, I consider him an excellent Mahlerian, I don't think I have any of his DG but have many of his RCA CDs (very good quality). But there it is, DG engineers managed to make the VPO sound bad, as they did too often. Abbado's Mahler with the VPO sounds wonderful, as does his early BPO. I believe some of the recordings are from the 70's and would have been recorded analogue. His BPO circa 2000 was DG digital and is quite listenable with very good performances, although the over-micd orchestra is rather 2-dimensional.

I feel the same way as you, there are some recordings that I don't listen to, even with my well set up digital playback. With streaming it's easy to find other performances with good SQ.

Blue Coast

loweride57: You hit the nail on DG. My digital front-end is not great, but should be okay for most recordings. I have Cary 303/200 with Burr Brown PCM1704 DAC and I also have two Audio research DACs, DAC2 and DAC3. DAC2 has Ultra Analog D20400 chip set and DAC3 has a crystal Semiconductor delta-sigma DAC with tubes.

But some of my DG recordings are ear-bleeding kind including one by Annie-Sophie Mutter "Carmen-Fantasie" with Levine conducting Weiner Phil. This is a modern recording with 4D Audio, whatever that is. If volin is not properly miked, then it can sound harsh including mass violins as well. However, Bruckner's 4th by Abbado and Wiener Phil and Mahler's #1 also by Abbado with BPO on DG sounds fantastic. I have accepted that not every recording is going to sound great. As long as I can get most of my recordings to sound good/great, I am fine. Thanks for the suggestions.

Mahler included funeral marches in his symphonies and also use a large number of brass instruments. So I am not surprised some poorly done recording sounding "bright." However, there are many Mahler recordings CDs and LPs that sounds well balanced from top to bottom without any edginess or harshness.Some of the DGG recordings can sound bright, but not limited to just Mahler's work.

Since you said you're listening to Hires, you're either listening to CD or streaming digital. I wanted to expand on the mention of DG recordings. DG was way behind other record labels when converting from analogue to digital. Known for their multi-mic and close-mic'd techniques, early digital sounded bright, sometimes harsh, especially the brass section. Some 1980's CDs nearly make my ears bleed, and I have a well dialed-in system. There was good advice above to try some other recordings. A good quality master is key to reproducing classical or any music using acoustic instruments accurately and realistically.

Eventually, DG digital improved but I wouldn't consider it audiophile quality. I've found MTT recordings to be high quality, very listenable, even with their high-end extension. 

I wouldn't start changing your components, although cables do make a difference and you said yours are new and may need more run-in time. I think you should check for any vibration coming from your system. Components need to be isolated from the shelves they sit upon. Are you using any anti-vibration footers or devices? I listen to classical almost exclusively and couldn't get rid of the brightness until I removed vibration from my system. Vibration from the DAC and CDP contribute most to poor reproduction of digital. 

There are many high quality classical recordings, keep in mind early digital may have problems. I love old recordings of the great maestros and their orchestras. But sometimes I want to hear high quality so I seek out record labels and orchestras which have been recorded and mastered well.

Mahler = Dynamic= the more power the better

Jasonbourne52 Spot on

There is nothing bright about the recent Los Angeles recording of Mahler 9. Or the CSO Resound recoding of Mahler 3. Both are the best recordings of those works played better than any other orchestra. 

Mahler included funeral marches in his symphonies and also use a large number of brass instruments. So I am not surprised some poorly done recording sounding "bright." However, there are many Mahler recordings CDs and LPs that sounds well balanced from top to bottom without any edginess or harshness.Some of the DGG recordings can sound bright, but not limited to just Mahler's work.

Symphony #4 Klemperer and Philharmonia Orchestra (EMI), Symphony #5 by Solti and CSO (London, Super Analog), Symphony #6Horenstein and Stockholm Philharmonic Orchetra  LPs are highly recommended. They sound well balanced in my system with Thiel 3.6 speakers, Mark Levinson 23.5 amp, Cary slp 03 preamp, and Audio Research PH5 phono amp. Cary and AR has NOS tubes. Another gem is Mahler's 1st symphony with newly discovered "Blumine" movement recorded by Frank Brieff and New Haven Symphony Orchestra (Columbia Odyssey).  I am in Colorado and have attended Colorado Mahlerfest few times. So I have a very good idea how these works sounds live.

Thanks to @kr4 - for recommending some that are better.

I don't necessarily regard them as "better."  I just recommended them in the hope that they might seem "better" for you. 

Huh? Wha? My many Mahler recordings are actually pretty well balanced, tone-wise. Maybe it's my forgiving system or my admittedly ancient LPs, but from the Solti London recordings to the Bruno Walter Odyssey recordings to the Horensteins to my three copies of the Vanguard Wunderhorn recording, they're all just fine.

Btw offloading low end from mains to a sub can help with any speaker even large more full range ones because the bass is where an amp works exponentially harder with lower frequency and excluding the lower frequencies allows the amp to work much less harder which always results in lower distortion. So a powered sub or two with active crossover might still be just what the doctor ordered. Your 100w/ch amp would likely never break a sweat with a sub handling the lowest octave or two instead.

Here is a good read about value of adding subs: https://ohmspeaker.com/news/for-optimum-sound-how-many-subs-and-where-do-you-put-em/

Btw I picked up the entire Bernstein Mahler symphony series on CD about a year back somewhere on eBay new for about $12. Best deal ever! Can vouch for fact that these recordings are not inherently bright. Streaming Symphony #2 now as we speak. This thread reminded me it’s been too long! I do rip all my CDs and stream them only for playback and I find that to be a very robust way to help assure quality at the source with my digital recordings

Yes well that was one of the big things about Ohm Fs ie being able to drive them well on the day. It’s a piece of cake these days with the newer Ohm Walsh models and newer amp technology like Class D.  
 

Oh right those are bigger Kefs right?  Should be up to the task with the right amplification I would think  

Yes it’s always hard to say where a problem comes from with gear one is unfamiliar with but if brightness is persistent throughout the recording and not just the louder peaks that are the problem could just be a matter of some tweaking. Again hard to say. Power conditioning might help. Hard to say with absolute certainty. Do you have a smartphone? If so download a sound level app like decibel and use that to measure spls during peaks or other times the brightness occurs. That will help establish if the issue correlated to the spl peak levels or not

Adding a sub or two is almost always a strong option to consider with any monitor speakers, especially for large scale classical symphonic recordings. . They do not extend flat down to the lowest octave guaranteed. Filling that in alone adds balance and may helping . Using an active crossover to offload bass from mains to subs allows main amp to not have to work as hard which always lowers distortion.

Smaller monitors alone are never optimal for any large symphonic works. Ok perhaps, but not optimal.

Thanks @mapman mapman.  Fyi: The Reference 3s are entirely different in size and configuration than the R3s, the latter which are standmount and the former of which are floor standing speakers (about the same size as the largest in the R series. KEF’s naming conventions don’t seem to carry over in their lines. 

I also have LS50s (not the Meta) in another system w/ a REL S3 sub - they’re remarkably good. But, yeah - they couldn’t manage Mahler above modest volumes.  The Reference 3s - can play at volumes much greater than I care to listen - and do so without strain.

Interestingly, back in the 80s, I bought a pair of Ohm Fs - speakers I thoroughly enjoyed but could never properly drive.  At the time, I had a 100 watt (remember Hafler?)  which was laughably too little for the famously inefficient Fs. But, boy did they sound nice at moderate volumes when the amp wasn’t panting.!

Best,

Btw I have KEF ls50 metas with a Klipsch sw308 sub in a smaller room running off Bel Canto ref1000m monoblocks amps (class d 500 w/ch). Fronted by Audio Research tube preamp. Does Mahler well at modest volumes. The little Kefs are still the bottleneck in that they are just not big enough to deliver at very high spls over 90 db or so. Then I have same front end driving Big Ohm F5s with 12” Walsh driver in next larger room. That takes the lid off. Mahler can be played and enjoyed easily at concert level volumes. Just for comparison. Have heard kef r3s and believe those to be a step above ls50s in terms of absolute SPL levels.

Hi Mapman,

I don’t feel the KEF Reference 3s are small - particularly for my modest listening space.  And, I don’t listen at live symphony levels - even though they’re only about 10 feet away. Plus, they sound lovely on most other things. So, I don’t think it’s the speakers.  It’s true the 100 watts I have could potentially be limiting, but even at peaks, I’m not seeing more than 20 watts and the quality of the amp overall is high. (I do wish I still had the T+A PA 3000HV - it was stellar, but ultimately, too big to properly place in my cabinet.)

My digital front end is quite good - while it can be bettered, I’ve put a good amount of attention and $$$ at it and my network. I’ve auditioned a LOT of similarly and more expensive gear and this is where I’ve ended up.

I suspect what I’m experiencing is threefold : 1) Many Mahler recordings actually are too bright. Thanks to @kr4 - for recommending some that are better. 2) my speaker cables are on the bright and revealing side (they’re new and sound wonderful on most things but they are brighter than what they replaced, and 3) I need to tame some resonances coming through my cabinet and into the components creating some euphoric induced distortion. 

Searching for good music is fun so I am tackling 1 here.  I think I’ll address 3 with a visit to the dealer to try some Nordost sort cones and the like.

Happy Thanksgiving all!

What is the source for these in your system? Digital or vinyl? Good recordings of Mahler symphonies are a challenge on the grand scale of things. Lots of things going on and big dynamic shifts and crescendos. That is the unique thing about them compared to many. Lots can go wrong anywhere from source to speakers. Could easily be multiple factors. Need more info to be able to properly assess case by case.

If your setup isn’t cutting it I would seek out a dealer who can demo a system that can. Then you are in a position to assess what’s different and what might to done to correct it.

off the cuff, I love those KEFs but they are small and will be challenged to deliver live symphony SPL levels with something like Mahler #2. Also 100 watts on the amp is not bad but probably also not enough to do the whole job cleanly with those speakers with the most challenging large scale symphonic recordings. Off the cuff I would advise more power (to better handle dynamic peaks) or more efficient speakers (most likely a good bit larger) and add a powered sub or two to the KEFs and cross over at 60 hz or above to remove the low end from the small monitors. This assumes your source phono setup is up to the task. If digital less of an issue there, more personal preference addressed by choice of dac.

A good Mahler symphony recording will separate the men from the boys. Everything needs to be going exactly right with your hifi. There is perhaps no tougher challenge for a hifi to reproduce.

if your hifi does Mahler well, it will do most anything. It’s a very good litmus test!

we’re it me, first thing I would try is throwing a good quality Class D amp at the problem. 250 watts per channel or more. Very feasible these days without breaking the bank .  Most Class D amps soft clip like a tube amp and that alone might help.   

Cheers and Happy Thanksgiving.

What speakers and cables are you using?

@jasonbourne52 I never listen at enough volume to approach clipping.  In this system, it’s a relatively small listening area

@antigrunge2 thanks for the smile!

@kr4 thanks for the recommendations!  I just listened to the Vanska/Minnesota and it’s much better!  I should have tried that one without prompting because I’m often surprised at how much I enjoy both their playing and recordings.   

Listening too loud - amplifier clipping. More power needed.

Maybe because he wasn‘t dim?

I can understand that to some degree.  You might try one of these:

Stenz/Koln on Oehms

Vanska/Minnesota on BIS

Fischer/BFO on Channel

I don't know what's going on.  All I can say is that Bernstein recording of the 5th with the Vienna Philharmonic on DGG sounds gorgeous on my system.