Why do I need power management if I have a great power cord?
Isn't it kind of unnecessary to additionally add a power conditioner if I have an expensive audio file grade Power cord connected to a component?
So you buy a Power conditioner from a hi-fi store and they say oh, you need a really good power cord to go with that and then another one to go from conditioner to the component. Do you need it all and why? Seems the last couple of feet before the component should be more than enough.
Fascinating how no one discusses how proper shielding will protect from all the Radio frequency related noises, within all the comments herein, that are generated after the electrons depart from the wall. It’s all very simple why does everyone overthink this problem?
Further no one seems to discuss measuring the interference that occurs before and after Power conditioning. To me this would be a huge selling point yeah no one talks about it. And what about restricted versus unrestricted electron flow that many conditioners do or don’t do. Thereby explaining why amps should go direct to wall unless power management device is unrestricted.
Maybe we should throw dedicated outlets into the mix, just to allow the denialists a trifecta!
Lets up the (ante) dedicated outlets with 250 volts!
I know the power goes through multiple transformers as part of the electric grid's distribution system before it reaches the transformer in my neighborhood. I know my audio equipment has transformers. In my experience by adding transformers to the main AC power branch circuits, from the electrical panel in my house to the audio equipment in my room, would be sound degrading. i.e. step up / down transformers, bucking transformers, power conditioners, AC regenerators (none of the former are on my audio lines). FWIW: I have four dedicated audio circuits in my audio room all four circuits are 250 volts, 20 amps. All four wall plugs are Hubbell IG4550A.
My audio equipment sounds better on 240 volts. I plug all my audio equipment directly into the plug. See the link below regarding the 240 volt option. Also, see the second link below: Emotiva Page 10 section 7 regarding IEC power cord.
Mike
The 240V Option
Some high end amps can be switched over and run on 220 volts and I recommend it may sound better. The transformer primaries and the core seem to run slight more efficiently yielding lower impedance so the supply might appear slightly ‘stiffer’ to the amp’s audio circuits (always a good thing). Because the amp is now running at twice the voltage but half the amps (current) the wall wiring looks twice as thick to the amp as it does at 120 volt (ohms law). Now the amp makes even less audio noise on the line and it then rejects its own line noise better. The 220 volt outlet can be a standard 15 amp with 10 Ga.. Wire up to 80 feet then 8 gauge beyond that.
For the 220 volt lines, the electrician may, or may not know about a NEMA receptacle and plug number that is the same size and form as our common Edison duplex 120 volt receptacle but the wide blade of the plug is on the opposite side as the 120 volt duplex. Hubble or commercial Leviton works fine for 220 volt, and the 6-20 series looks less industrial in your home.
It is Nema plug number 6-20P. ‘Stay on line‘ is a good source but your electrician may like a local supplier.
BE SURE TO CHANGE OVER THE AMP INTERNALLY IF YOU DECIDE TO RUN 220 VOLT !
Last Trick – Twist the conductors
Lastly, you might ask him to twist the conductors one twist every 6-8 inches or so. Each line should be alternately twisted relative to the one next to it. This prevents any coherent coupling between them. Keep them away from each other by minimum 4 inches. It is perfectly OK to cross them at a right angle.
Final Word
If your electrician has any concerns about all this, be aware he is always concerned about CONTINUOUS current draw and rates everything and splits up the loads like the air conditioning and the electric dryer for the available amperage. Please explain to him that we are designing for incredibly short peak current pulses and we need the resistance back to the utility as low as possible for best amplifier performance. The continuous draw is negligible from an electrical standpoint. 10 gauge wire is the largest size that will fit into a wall outlet and as far as I know does not violate any codes but you and your electrician are responsible to be sure this is true in your state, county, and city.
Be sure that your speaker cable is at least 10 gauge. You should consider 8 or 9 gauge for speakers that are below 87db sensitivity, and/ or 4 ohms. Some manufacturers say, ‘our 14 gauge behaves like 10 gauge, etc.’, this could be true but I go for the real measured gauge.
Now, without exception over the last 12 years, comments from those that have done the above heavy gauge wire wall power mods say there is audible improvement in dynamics while making the sound even more detailed, yet much more relaxed with dark backgrounds leaving only the notes and music. I was very surprised the first time I did this house power mod. I did not expect the mid-range and the highs to clean up and get more coherent as much as they did. Of course bass and dynamics are better as you would expect with better current delivery.
@atmasphere I greatly respect your advice. I guess, what I wonder, is if some “power conditioning” devices still may add value. I’ve got an Audience AR-1p plugged into a quality power strip to power my HeadFi setup. Am I kidding myself?
Ditusa#. This makes the most sense out of any electrical tweak I have heard about. I’m going to research more into the 240 V option that makes sense. Does anybody else know anything about this?
I guess, what I wonder, is if some “power conditioning” devices still may add value.
If passive devices, it can, and will be marginal.
I’m going to research more into the 240 V option that makes sense. Does anybody else know anything about this?
Yes. If you are having problems with AC line noise, this will do nothing since the noise is coming from outside the house. Your house is powered by 240V which is split into two halves; that's what electricians are talking about when they talk about 'the other side of the line'. You can see this by simply looking at your breaker box- the left and right columns of breakers are the two sides of the line. There is no transformer involved to cause the two sides to be 117V (or 120V or whatever).
I learned this the hard way about 30 years ago. I built a loft apartment in an old building and when I put circuits in the panel I didn’t know about balancing the load. When I got my first electric bill it was sky high. I was delivering parts for an electrical construction company and I asked one of the engineers what happened. He Came over to inspect my job and laughed because I had all the circuits on one leg. He explained me that the electric meter reads the higher of the two legs and if you don’t balance the load you’ll get a crazy electric bill.
... I really didn’t sign on to audio Gon tonight looking for a beef. I guess some of you guys are hearing something, I tried to hear it and spent a bunch of money in the process and nothing...
Money that may have been better spent on things that do make a difference
My answer is yes to your first question, but your own conclusion is incorrect. It doesn’t require a detailed knowledge of logical and/or formal fallacies to understand why that may be so.
…
People often will spend a few hundred or more on questionable things, and do it multiple times. And often not spend teh same total amount in a single “upgrade”.
Hope rings eternal.
@atmaspheredo you have experience with your amps benefiting from using the two example of power conditioning units that you mentioned?
On my system power cables do make a difference with power conditioner or similar such devices. I use two WyWires Juice II Platinum HC power cables on my Nordost QB4, one feeding the QB4 and off from that one feeding my amp. It clearly is noticeable changing out power cables. I’m evaluating at the moment a Nordost Valhalla II PC feeding my PS Audio P10 and it is noticeably different than the WyWires Juice II Silver HC I own and currently use. Dedicated circuits definitely make a difference as well, but system dependent. Before dedicated circuits my Pass X250 was a little on the lean side and lacked authority; adding dedicated circuits opened up the Pass and extended and controlled the bottom end. I ran No.10 to my amp and another No.12 circuit to the rest of my system. Best just to try for yourself and not be steered one way or another by others.
I will just throw this into the mix. If you take a look at the box that contains your circuit breakers for the house you will probably find that all the lines that run through your house have 12 gauge copper wire. So explain to me why anyone would think that they need 10 gauge or thicker running the last couple of feet from the plug to the amplifier.
Because when you do it, a good audio system sounds better.
How do I know this? I have tried it multiple times on different iterations of my system over the last twenty years or so of my fifty years in pursuit of great sound. You can see my systems under my ID.
@atmaspheredo you have experience with your amps benefiting from using the two example of power conditioning units that you mentioned?
Yes.
@atmaspheregreat discussion of these two power conditioners. I wonder 2 things:
1. How much load do they add? To supply a 400W amp does the load (and heat in the room) go up to 800 watts?
To supply a 400W amp the total draw is likely about 475-500 Watts.
2. Are these expensive high end units able to totally eliminate transformer hum?
Maybe! If the transformer is noisy because there is a 5th harmonic, then yes. If the transformer is noisy because of DC on the AC line, then very likely yes also (although a $50 DC blocker can sort that out). If the transformer is noisy out of its load and/or design, then no.
@ghdprentice"High end audio is a very complex endeavor… full of ambiguity and complexity."
Well said. The problem is not "trying to prove a negative," as someone else said, the problem is to hear something that one does not yet know how to hear. Hearing is mostly interpretation and only partly physical. One needs to know what to listen for.
I think of the days before OLED TV’s. People would say, "This IS a black background." Then, much blacker blacks came along and people could now see that they had been missing something. And it was not just the blacks. It was everything on the screen. Everything gets better -- and the whole experience gets better.
So, the first reaction -- "This is just 'up-selling' or 'snake oil' -- turns out to be wrong. What folks came to learn was that quieting visual noise (making backgrounds blacker) changes the foreground by changing the background. That is very hard for people to understand, because they are focused -- almost exclusively -- on what is in the foreground. The fundamental mistake they make is to disconnect foreground and background. They are entangled for both perception and conception. @mahgistermakes this point very well when he tries to direct attention to the room's acoustics. But his point applies very well to the technological devices' designs and their power sources, too.
This point about the "blacker background" applies pari passu to other things besides background noise; the way highs, mids, bass registers are expressed by speakers, the way transients and dynamics are shaped. And the technologies that make all these areas better are often not easy to grok, which is why your suggestions of resources like Robert Harley is so appropriate.
I think you have nicely put your finger on a key aspect of the hifi pursuit. As you say we need to learn (train our ears) to find the some imperfections once we get beyond a certain level.
So my observation is that a blacker background on a tv does not make the programming better or worse. However if you focus on the blackness of the background you can make yourself unhappy with your equipment. Is that a smart thing to do? Does this all come down to the old saw about whether we want to listen to the music or the equipment? The brain is very, very good at filtering. It can filter all kinds of distractions if we allow it to. But some are too distracting. For instance I really dislike the surface noise that comes with many LPs, so for me digital sources are preferred. Is there such a thing as 'optimal stopping' in audio? I think so.
@ditusathanks, I understand how a home circuit panel works. I have no reason to make this up. I got a crazy high electric bill and I asked my friend who was the vice president of engineering for a large electrical firm why my bill was so high. He came by the house switched around some wires in the panel and said everything would be fine and let them know. The next time my bill came it was approximately half. I asked him what I had done wrong and he explained to me that my electric meter reads the higher of the two phases and that is why my bill was out of whack I was drawing 80% of the current I was using on one phase. Then he said that’s why things that draw a lot of current like air conditioners stoves etc. are always 220 v So that you never have to have that issue. They draw an equal amount of power from both phases. I promise you I’m not making this up and I saw it firsthand.
Basic physics. Everytime you double the size of a conductor, you reduce the resistance of the conductor by half. Output impedance is the product of LCR. Reducing any aspect of the impedance allows the available current to increase (the current well). Instantaneous power demands in audio are not often spoken about. Take the Telarc recording of the 1812 Overture as an example. Someone smarter than me did the calculations on the reproduction of the cannon shots in that recording. To accurately reproduce that event considering the average listening level of 2 watts would require 10,000 watts of instantaneous power. Point of the exercise was to illustrate the power demands on a musical system. I don't know of any presently available amplifier to produce that type of current dump. If there was an amp capable of that considering that most amplifiers (not talking class D here) are somewhere between 50%, - 78% efficiency. Do the math. The power distribution cable from the transformer to the entry service is #2 wire. It just makes sense, logically and mathematically, to supply a dynamic system with huge instantaneous current demands as much current as possible. A Class A PASS XS300 monoblock will dump 48A on demand. You need two of these. See where this is going?
Solid state systems are current hogs. Ever feed a hog?
My two cents. If you have clock radio as you source of music any power cord will work and everything will sound the same. If you have something more resolving and you have good hearing, then everything makes a difference. My ears are definitely not what they were, but with my equipment, I can hear the difference between lamp cord and 12 gauge romax and a $300 power cord that was designed hifi amps. And then there comes the point of diminishing returns, but that’s a whole other story.
Basic physics. Everytime you double the size of a conductor, you reduce the resistance of the conductor by half. Output impedance is the product of LCR. Reducing any aspect of the impedance allows the available current to increase (the current well). Instantaneous power demands in audio are not often spoken about. Take the Telarc recording of the 1812 Overture as an example. Someone smarter than me did the calculations on the reproduction of the cannon shots in that recording. To accurately reproduce that event considering the average listening level of 2 watts would require 10,000 watts of instantaneous power.
The capacitors only get filled up when they are at or below the voltage coming out of the transformer-rectifier-regulator. That physically is happening in a rectified sine wave that operating at 120 Hz. So there is a great deal of time (maybe a 1/4 of the time), where the AC is NOT feeding the capacitors any DC.
The power supply in an amplifier is holding DC and buffering the AC to provide that energy reserve..
This is pretty much analogous to how a toilet works. The thing flushes very quickly, but takes many seconds to fill the bowl. The pressure and size of the pipes coming into the house do not go directly into the flushing… they merely keep the bowl filled for subsequent flushes, thereby buffering the demand for water.
The power distribution cable from the transformer to the entry service is #2 wire.
For the entire house… running an electric oven, AC, etc. It is not for a single (0r pair) of MB amps that draw 900W (~9A) each.
It just makes sense, logically and mathematically, to supply a dynamic system with huge instantaneous current demands as much current as possible.
Do the lights in the house flicker whenever the bass drum hits?
If not, then the amp is not pulling that output power directly from the input AC.
It is buffering the energy in the capacitors.
A Class A PASS XS300 monoblock will dump 48A on demand.
How do we arrive at 48A? Are you using 8 ohm speakers? Or what is their impedance?
300W at 8 ohms implies “rails” at ~50V, and at 8 ohms that is about 6 amperes.
(Driving a 1 ohm load can get us to 48A - so I guess you have 1 ohm speakers?)
In any case that amp is a device providing voltage amplification and impedance matching. It is not forcing 48A into the speaker, it is only providing up to 50V. The speakers get whatever ohms law translates into in terms of current.
Holmz, there is no future in trying to have a cogent discussion with a person that misses 90% of the conversation to dwell on 10%. You are obviously so much smarter than I am.
To quote directly from one of many reviews on the Xs300: "The Xs 300 mono amps were not only better sounding in every respect than the XA-160.5s, but they had nearly twice the power: 300 watts into 8 ohms, 600 watts into 4 ohms, and 48 amps worth of peak output current."
Let’s take your analogy to the opposite side of your argument. 900W represents 7.8A @ 120VAC. 24AWG wire has a current rating of 8A. Are you willing to use 24AWG on the Xs300? Ask yourself why Nelson would use a Neutrik powerCON rated for 32A @ 250VAC.
Holmz, there is no future in trying to have a cogent discussion with a person that misses 90% of the conversation to dwell on 10%. You are obviously so much smarter than I am.
How do you arrive at concluding that I am smarter than you?
I am just trying to understand here, and make sense of the physics.
What is wrong with me only needing further explanation of 10%?
Maybe I got the other 90%
Let’s take your analogy to the opposite side of your argument. 900W represents 7.8A @ 120VAC. 24AWG wire has a current rating of 8A. Are you willing to use 24AWG on the Xs300?
No!
would probably use whatever cable Nelson provided, or I would ask him.
Ask yourself why Nelson would use a Neutrik powerCON rated for 32A @ 250VAC.
The output of the amp needs to be larger speaker cable because the voltage is lower and there the current is higher for the same wattage.
The PowerCon is a great connector. I think that they only come in 32A, and that covers most all professional needs. Is that between the seperate power supply and the amp? Or is it from the wall to the amp? If it is “between” then it makes sense as the separate box is probably supplying 50V “rails”, so it needs be higher current capability than the 120v side is.
If one is using a 12 gauge wire for the speaker, then the incoming power, being at 120v, should not need to be bigger than 12 gauge (If we assume that the amp was 100% efficient). The amp is not 100%, but the 120v is a lot higher than a 50V rails so the current will be lower on the AC side.
The whole thing about 2 gauge coming to the house, is to cover things like ovens and dryers which need huge amounts of power/current.
a 1kW hair drier or 900W amp does not need 2 gauge.
So my observation is that a blacker background on a tv does not make the programming better or worse. However if you focus on the blackness of the background you can make yourself unhappy with your equipment. Is that a smart thing to do?....Is there such a thing as 'optimal stopping' in audio? I think so.
I would agree that there is such a thing as optimal stopping. What I have found recently -- by adding a relatively inexpensive linear power supply to my streamer -- is that the content (or "programming") *did* get better because I was able to hear instruments and notes that were not previously available to me. If that occurred by adding better power to my whole system, it would be quite reasonable to do.
So, perhaps, one metric to answer your excellent question -- roughly, "When is it optimal to stop improving the system?" -- is this: *when no more content is added or improved significantly.* Or even, *when I cannot justify spending this money, here.*
Knowing when to stop is kind of a judgment call which comes down to each of us. It's that same part of us that knows when to stop eating at an "all you can eat" buffet!
Exactly so, A large, fast, over spec’d capacitor bank in a power supply is the key.
“
The capacitors only get filled up when they are at or below the voltage coming out of the transformer-rectifier-regulator. That physically is happening in a rectified sine wave that operating at 120 Hz. So there is a great deal of time (maybe a 1/4 of the time), where the AC is NOT feeding the capacitors any DC.
The power supply in an amplifier is holding DC and buffering the AC to provide that energy reserve..“
There exist electrical-magnetical distortions and crosstalk induced by the gear and there is also distortions and acoustic crosstalk induced by the speakers/ room / two ears relation...
I will explain soon the psycho-acoustic geography of my room in my acoustic thread... 😁😊
"When is it optimal to stop improving the system?" -- is this: *when no more content is added or improved significantly.*
The answer to the question when stop upgrading is related also to acoustic treatment and control...And your own purse for sure...But price tag of the gear is overevaluated much in S.Q. experience and acoustic and psycho-acoustic underevaluated much... Then...
I was hearing new details about sound and more accuracy after acoustic devices tuning or speakers/room tuning...
There is also the acoustic cues and factors that cannot be given by the gear alone in an optimal way and ask for room treatment and control...
Especially listener envelopment/source width ratio and timbre....
This was my motto for years: dont upgrade before the audio system is well embedded in mechanical and electrical and acoustical working dimensions...
I myself for example add a linear power supply for my dac with success and a lower noise level but the linear supply itself must be controlled for his vibrations for example...I even add a "golden plate" on it (shungite+copper tape)...
I've been trying to understand what you are saying. But first of all, respectfully, I think the relationship of the size of conductor to resistance involves a square and a determination of output impedance is more complicated that just being the product of LCR. I am not an EE so I struggle like many others with the complexity of electrical circuits.
But it sounds to me like you are saying that the benefit of a short, fat wire (a bespoke power cable) connected to a long thin wire (the household romex) carrying AC current is that it acts kind of like a capacitor in that it stores up current as a reserve in instances when the amp needs more. My problem with this vision is that in an amp's power supply the AC is converted to DC and if the amp has a linear power supply built into it (and here I am thinking of a solid state class A amp, in fact I am specifically thinking of a Pass Firstwatt F6 which I am currently building) then it includes a generous bank of capacitors and resistors specifically to smooth out the dc current after it has passed though the rectifier that converts it from the AC into DC. I believe that same capacitor bank also acts as the current reserve for the amp. I suspect this reserve is much, much larger that what could be conceivably stored in a 3 or 6 foot length of power cable. So it seems to me that either I am mistaken or you are mistaken about how this all works. I tried searching for a more definitive answer on the net but I suspect I just did not know how to phrase the "fat wire, thin wire" question correctly.
For what it's worth, I don't know if you have ever had the chance to look inside an amp, but the wires carrying the current as well as the outgoing signal are pretty thin. Also while reading up for this amp building project I recall Nelson Pass, a man for whom I have great respect, making a comment regarding wires to the effect that he has nothing against nice wires and if people give them to him he uses them but beyond that he seemed not too concerned.
This seems really unlikely!! Giving the amp the benefit of the doubt, and assuming it can double power into 2 Ohms, it would be making 1200 watts. If it can do that the current would be about 24 Amps. To do 48 Amps, the amp can would drive 1 Ohm with 2400 Watts (that would be 48 Amps of current) and I just don't think so. The math is against it.
You missed my point. I am a proponent of large gauge dedicated wiring runs from ythe service entrance to the system... NOT thin gauge romex.
Power cables do not store energy, at least the good ones don’t.
I built my first amp when I was 13 - 61 years ago. I have built over 30 amplifiers in my lifetime including an F6 for a friend of mine. I grok amplifiers.
@piaudiol So we would agree there is no point to have a heavier cable between the wall plug and the amp than what is behind the wall plug running to the circuit breaker?
So we would agree there is no point to have a heavier cable between the wall plug and the amp than what is behind the wall plug running to the circuit breaker?
Thanks for that link. My next acquisition may have to be some high impedance speakers! But tell me, can we cheat and just add a resistor in the line to a lower impedance speaker and get the same enhancement of performance from the amp?
I've seen advertising, but not the actual quote (which IME is something very different!). Do you have a link?
But tell me, can we cheat and just add a resistor in the line to a lower impedance speaker and get the same enhancement of performance from the amp?
Yes, but the resistor will work against you than for you. It will absorb power too- for example if a 4 Ohm resistor in series with a 4 Ohm speaker, the resistor will absorb about 1/2 the power! Its not practical, and the speaker will see a vastly reduced damping factor.
Thanks for that link. My next acquisition may have to be some high impedance speakers! But tell me, can we cheat and just add a resistor in the line to a lower impedance speaker and get the same enhancement of performance from the amp?
I think a better test would be to add the 4 ohm resistor on the incoming power plug cable between the amp and the wall.
At 4 ohms and 120v that limits the incoming current to 30A.
If we assume that the spec sheet about 900W draw is correct, then we have 8A of RMS current draw.
At 8A the voltage drop with 4 ohms is 32v, so we go from 120 (which is like 170 at the peak) down to 88v (which is really 138).
The effect is that we significantly cut down the angular time over which the capacitors can be filled.
I would doubt it could be heard at anything below really loud levels, but it would be interesting to try it.
The impedance difference between a 10 gauge and a say a 18 gauge feeder cable is in the milli-ohms., 4 ohms is a wildly high value.
But it is a great test to go way beyond the scope of reality to see if there is a benefit in the theory of the input cable driving the speaker.
Note: 8A at 30v drop would be a 240w so it would need to be a large resistor, or a few 100W resistors in parallel… like maybe 4x 8 ohm ones to get to 2ohms.
And a fan cooling them would be great to have.
Yes, but the resistor will work against you than for you. It will absorb power too- for example if a 4 Ohm resistor in series with a 4 Ohm speaker, the resistor will absorb about 1/2 the power! Its not practical, and the speaker will see a vastly reduced damping factor.
I’m a power supply guy and it occurred at a show in a discussion with Nelson, who is also a power supply guy. I, too have read about that number in reviews...
I’m a power supply guy and it occurred at a show in a discussion with Nelson, who is also a power supply guy.
But whatever the minimum impedance is for your speakers, then divide the 50V rail by that impedance… and whoo-la… we get the maximum amperage that the amp can deliver to YOUR speakers.
A theoretical (or real) 1 ohm load is the only way to get 48A.
It is quite possible that he designed it to be able to push a 1-ohm load, but that has little to with what it will actually provide in a specific use case.
I, too have read about that number in reviews...
Perhaps the reviewers could be repeating what others say, or what the specs say?
If they measured it, then it gets to be more towards facts, than being more like “lore”.
It would probably be more productive to reach out to Mr. Pass for clarification as to what it means, and what it means with a a specific speaker.
(I, and likely others, would be interested in what he says… I suspect that it means he has a monster of overkill in the power supply… which is great.)
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