For whoever asked: his name is Brien Grant.
He asked that you please use my name as the referral.
I have a high degree of confidence in him. He is sort of obsessed about tube quality.
A question about tube rolling
Hi Ya’all,
At the ripe old age of 70, I have discovered tube rolling.
Up until now, I have simply been about getting good tubes, say Telefunken or GE or Siemens, stick ‘em in there, and phougheadaboudit
I bought a Pro-ject Tube Box DS2 because I just wasn’t getting what I thought I should be getting out of my Koetsu Onyx and Leopard from my Beard P505.
Out of the box (pun unintended), the Tube Box made an immediate improvement.
But, still not quite there. I looked at the tubes and they were unbranded. So I went shopping on eBay and found a pair of Telefunken red tips for $280.
It turns out that the seller lived a half hour away, and so he drove them over to me.
it also turns out that he had 10,000+ tubes - or so he says - in his basement. So he comes with the set that I paid for, and three other sets, and he leaves them with me.
As some of you know, I’m a cheap rat bastard who refuses to spend more than $0.50 on lamp wire for my speaker cable (ok I lied, I do have Monster cable). So even though he explains that he’s got exotic Valvos and Teslas and who knows what else, costing up to $1,900 a pair, I stick to a $500 ceiling ‘cause … I’m a cheap rat bastard … and there’s also that law of diminishing returns sorta thing.
A week later, he brings me four more sets.
One of those sets cost $800. And they sound, well better (although there was a situation where a $50 tube that he brought for me to put in one of the line stages of the Beard sounded better than the $250 one.).
I have listening sessions once a week, so I got my guests involved one evening. I used David Crosby’s “Laughing” from “If Only I Could Remember My Name” and we listened to it over and over, with each of the four sets of tubes, and I explained to them what to listen for in the bass guitar line, the pedal steel at the top, Crosby’s voice, the chorus (and particularly if Joni Mitchell’s and Steven Stills voice were distinctly recognizable as THEIR voices, with nuanced inflection, not just voices separated out but not of any distinct characterization), the acoustic depth and colorations around each voice and instrument, if everything was planted in a specific location on the soundstage, and last but not least, the size - width, breadth and height - of the stage. Then I asked them to pick the set that they liked best and to explain why, according to each of the parameters.
They had so much fun doing that, that going forward I will be keeping tubes of different signatures just to do these exercises with new guests, as they volunteered after the listening sessions that they felt that they learned to hear in a way that they never considered before.
Which was exactly the point of the exercise.
But I digress.
The tube guy said he had some more tubes to try out.
This time I say “Ok. Hit me with your best shot. Throw the very best pair of tubes you have at me. Just sock-it-to-me! (There I just dated myself). And just don’t tell me what they cost!”
So he comes with five sets. Some are really interesting, they have … getters? And one is that best shot. And one is a set that he says are a little weird but he thinks that they will work.
So, up until now, I have been able to hear differences in each set. And some are better, some worse, some do some things better, some do other things better, some are just different.
Of the five, I just go straight for that best shot.
Holy. Efffing. Crap.
Let me say that again, for effect.
Holy. Effing. Crap.
I had thought that my system was up there. And, well, it is: one can say that it is detailed, precise, deep, exciting, dramatic.
This is now… I guess the words I would use are true, and honest…and effortless. Whatever it is, it’s a whole other level.
I did not think that just one pair of 12AX7s or ECC83s could make such a humongous difference.
They are from 1957, and cost twice as much as the Tube Box that they are going in
So, the question is …. There was to be a question, remember? It says so right up there at the top, in the subject line. The question is: I guess I know the answer. Let me put it this way: has anyone had a similar nirvana-like experience just from upgrading tubes, and should I be paying these kinds of prices for them?
31 responses Add your response
@unreceivedogma If I came off negative about your preamp my apologies. It was only when you mentioned your cartridge I pictured a "high end" preamp in my head. But in retrospect I shouldn't even have made the comment.. I've never heard your phono preamp. I thought I did mention something like if it's bringing you joy & you found something that meshes well with your system then that is a great thing. Me, you, or anyone else doesn't need to justify what works for us, our components, & our room. Especially now in this current age of audio where there is good sound to be had without the prices of 20 plus years ago. I personally feel we've truly reached the age where money doesn't dictate how well a component will sound. Speakers may be a little different..but just my opinion. I hate to see the thread turn to something outside of the Tube topic. Wasn't my intention to take it off track if I did. My bad if my comments come off as critical. That's not what I'm about. |
I asked the expert audiophile “DeepSeek” 😝 to: compare the Pro-ject Tube Box DS2 to more expensive phono stages. ANSWER: When comparing the **Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2** to more expensive phono preamplifiers, it’s important to consider the additional features, build quality, and performance improvements that come with higher price points. Below is a comparison of the Tube Box DS2 with some of its more expensive competitors: --- ### **1. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Sutherland Engineering PH3D** - **Sutherland Engineering PH3D**: **Verdict**: The PH3D offers superior transparency and detail retrieval, making it a better choice for audiophiles seeking a neutral, high-fidelity sound. The Tube Box DS2, however, provides tube warmth and is more affordable. --- ### **2. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Audio Research PH9** - **Audio Research PH9**: **Verdict**: The PH9 offers a more refined and spacious soundstage, making it a top choice for high-end systems. The Tube Box DS2 provides a similar tube warmth at a fraction of the cost but lacks the PH9's ultimate refinement. --- ### **3. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE II** - **Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE II**: **Verdict**: The Black Cube SE II offers exceptional clarity and detail, making it a favorite among audiophiles who prefer a neutral sound. The Tube Box DS2, with its tube warmth, is better suited for those seeking a richer, more colored sound. --- ### **4. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. Simaudio Moon 310LP** - **Simaudio Moon 310LP**: **Verdict**: The Moon 310LP offers superior clarity and detail retrieval, making it a better choice for high-end systems. The Tube Box DS2 provides tube warmth and is more affordable. --- ### **5. Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 vs. EAR Yoshino 324** - **EAR Yoshino 324**: **Verdict**: The EAR Yoshino 324 offers a more refined and luxurious tube sound, making it a top choice for high-end systems. The Tube Box DS2 provides a similar tube warmth at a much lower cost but lacks the ultimate refinement of the 324. ---
### **Conclusion**: |
Wow , what a great experience , meeting a tube guy is like winning the lottery for tube rolling . I will say that rolling 2 exact same tubes is a lot easier than my situation where I have 6 tubes of 3 different types used in a Tavish Designs phono preamp . Yes I had more than one AH HA moment because of the 3 different types and to make things more complicated the interaction between the 3 types . Even then there is the adjusting on the fly of the capacitance ( I use an MI cartridge ) that creates another level of ah ha . It's nice to hear that a fellow 70 something uses David Crosby's album as ones litmus test , since this is my favorite number one album . |
I'm new to tube rolling as well. I bought an LTA MZ2 preamp about a year ago. It was used and came with a pair of 12SN7s of unknown history. Shortly afterwards, I bought a pair of Sylvania VT231s and it was a very different sound but not what I was looking for. I consulted with Brent Jessee and traded those for a pair of NOS RCA 6SN7GTB. The difference is dramatic. I'm sensitive to sibilance and these tubes almost completely eliminate that and present a warm rich sound that really compliments my rather analytical speakers. None of these were very expensive but it has wet my appetite for trying other tubes. But knowing which ones to look for requires years of experience I don't have. Working with Brent Jessee to find what you're looking for is highly recommended. His knowledge and willingness to help is a rare quality that I appreciate.
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There are SO MANY good phono options under $2K. You can get a Pass Xono for well under $1500, the PS Audio Stellia is recommended a lot a goes under $2K used (though I haven’t heard this one). You could even just get a Bob’s Devices Sky or CineMag 1254 SUT box to cover the MC gain with your existing ProJect in MM mode, and that would make a huge change in sound and you could still tube-roll. These CineMags sound GREAT with Koetsu. Rogue Ares Magnum is a halfway decent tube phono with the 1254 SUT built in, and you have even more tube rollong options there (12AX7 and 12AU7). Trumpet MC is only 1300 new and lots of tubes (4x 12AX7, 2x 12AU7)! I’ve even used it with a Coralstone diamond. Anyways, to point of your original question, biggets wow / nirvana moments I’ve had with subs of same-tube type are:
Yes, I’ve paid good money for my reserves of both of these tubes (plus many others I’m fond of)! Then I’ve heard lots of really big differences by swapping similar-but-different tube types - but that might be considered "cheating" and sometimes you will definitely be changing the parameters and "sound" of the amp. Like 12BH7 for 12AU7, KT120 for KT88 (or vice versa). Had an old headphone amp with tube 3 slots - 1 input and 2 outputs - where you could swap almost anything with adapaters. It originally shipped with all 6SN7, but we quickly found it sounded far better with 5687 outputs (lower output impedance), and then later with 6BL7GTA or 6BX7GT. On the input slot a 2C51 (w/ adapter) was found to be much better than 6SN7, and then Western Electric 396A was the best of all. Boy, that was a lot of fun back then. |
re: Pass Labs Xono, XP-15 It is solid state. I tried three Graham Slee products. I did not like them for two reasons: - the sound was “flat”, not holographic. |
I’m committed to the Pro-ject Tube Box for budget reasons. I’m not going to spend $15,000 on a phono stage when my entire system is about $45,000, spent over a 45 year period, or in other words, about $1,000 a year. If someone wants to recommend a phono stage that’s no more than $2,000, I’m all ears. And, I have these weird little boxes in the chain, just before the amps, “BBE Sonic Maximizers” https://reverb.com/item/74294033-bbe-282ix-desktop-sonic-maximizer that I learned about from a guitarist friend. They are $90 each and probably everyone here is saying wtf but they WORK, as long as you don’t use them as tone controls. They adjust the phasing, and in doing so they make the sound more detailed and present. So big $$$s is not necessarily better. Black cat white cat whatever catches the mouse. You may ask: but you spent all that money on the Koetsus? (I have a rosewood signature as well) I paid nowhere near full price for the Leopard, and the (old original) onyx was a gift from a quite famous rock musician ( he allegedly had four of them) who will remain unnamed for fear of being accused of name dropping. The only hint I will provide is that he is an ardent environmentalist and he heard through the grapevine that I played a not insignificant role in keeping fracking out of NY State and that my Koetsu Black, at 25+ years, was reaching the end of its life, that I was budget conscious and decided to help me out. As for the results I’m getting: this guy goes around the New York metro area and up into New England, into dozen’s and dozen’s of people’s homes selling hi end gear, and tubes in particular. He shows up with a tube tester and a bag of 20 or 30 or so pairs of tubes, and we stick ‘em in the phono stage, and I listen to specific tracks that I have memorized over and over with each set. While he listens for maybe 30 seconds and then based on that, rummaged through his bag looking for the next set. After doing that for an hour or so, he leaves 3 or 4 sets behind for a week so that I can burn each for 24 hrs then listen. I was at his home, his system is much more modern and his amps alone cost far more than my entire system. Nevertheless, on the last visit, I put in a fourth set, and instead of listening for 30 seconds then running to his bag, he just stood there and listened to the entire track. He says that “I’ve worked on so many high end systems, I’ve never stepped back and listened to an entire track before. This system is not just better than almost anything I’ve heard. It’s different in a way that is totally …” and I forgot the word he used but it was along the lines of “caressing in a completely enveloping” sort of way. And yes, tubes are known to change, for worse but also for better, not just over weeks or months, but over years. And yes, I’m lucky to have found this guy who happens to live in my neighborhood so to speak. It is a blessing from the audio gods, to be able to try stuff out before you buy, as some tubes have a terrific rep but when you put them in they are just “meh” and I’m talking about British Mullards for example. @trivema I’ll post a list of the tubes later. The ones with the “nirvana” are mCp-something. He is a big fan of Valvo, and those in fact have been the best. They leave Telefunkens in the dust. theaudioatticvinylsundays.com |
@unreceivedogma so what brand/style was the last pair of 12AX7 you rolled in? I have vintage NOS and NOS testing Telefunken smooth and ribbed plate, Mullards, RCA black plates, GE 5751 black plate triple mica, Sylvania 5751 bp, Brimar, Amperex BB, and Raytheon bp from the late 50’s. All sound a little different with distinct sound characteristics. My fav is the Raytheon bp, combines warmth of the Mullard, clear transparency of the Tele, and treble sparkle of the BB. |
Yeah..like others have mentioned my first thought was to try a better phono preamp. But then if the Pro-ject makes you happy & seems to "synergize" with your gear I guess that's a good thing. I'm kinda jealous that you live so close to a tube hoarder but not jealous of those prices. Legit tubes are becoming harder to acquire though. I've always struggled with paying for tubes that cost anywhere close to the price of the actual component used. If you start DIY-ing that situation comes more into play. If some of these tubes are truly unused you will experience some changes in sound & perception from them. I have definitely experienced tubes that sounded better right out of the box...strong emphasis on bass & vocals for them to eventually even out. Where I actually preferred them when they weren't so linear sounding. But the same could be said that they sound kinda Meh at first & eventually transform into something more liquid. My point being that you really need to put some time on them before realizing their true nature. My approach would be to get a pair & wait a few weeks before trying something else. If you sample a pair that you really like & they are over $200 a piece I'd remember the exact tube type & at least explore elsewhere for a better price. Expensive doesn't always mean better. Just like with your more modest prices preamp, you may experience that a $50 pair of tubes does just as much magic for you. I wish I had a nearby neighbor that was cool enough to let me sample tubes. You are extremely lucky. I've spent good money on tubes that definitely were not worth the price I paid. If you decide to pay big dollar prices make sure these tubes are tested appropriately. Find some everyday tubes & then tubes for special occasions. Get some "Socket Savers". Eventually getting socket savers for all your favorite tubes..leaving them attached to your most expensive favorite tubes 24/7. Just my 2 cents. It blows my mind how expensive tubes are..but I guess back in the day I thought they would be around forever. Then I got into surround sound & solid state & didn't think about tubes for 15 or 20 years. |
Like pairing wine with food… without more data about the seller…hard to know…but value is always in the ear of the listener… I am w Mike about the tube box not extracting the full measure of Koetsu…magic… finally so glad to hear of your joy solo and with other music lovers at your listening sessions… |
Yes, I have done quite a bit of tube rolling. The biggest change was when I upgraded my first row of 12AT7 in my Raven Blackhawk amp to Brimar 6060 Yellow T’s. I was shocked of the SQ improvement over my favorite Mullard ‘59 square getter, RCA and Raytheon ‘50-60’s winged black plates, Tungsram ‘70’s. I couldn’t believe the improvement. I lucked out…Bought a used pair that tested new and close at a bargain price for these rare tubes…I have noticed some amps respond to tube changes more while others respond less. |
Yeah, I think I saw good Allnic phono preamp for sale on the other site for about $1500. Perhaps this would be a better next step. I think, Allnic comes with NOS Mullard tubes when new, unless they changed that. Would this phono stage work well with your cartridges and line preamp ? I don't know but some others here do know. |
Wait you've got a Koetsu Onyx and a Leopard? A Pro-ject Tube Box is still not where you need to be, for phono stage, at this level. Tube-rolling is way way WAY secondary to the main issue, here. You can go the SUT + tube MM stage route, or at least please consider a Pass Labs Xono, XP-15, or XP-17 for theses Koetsus, at a minimum! I normally use SUT / tubes but I've also tried my Blue Lace with a Xono and it sounds great; it serves the Koetsu very nicely. |
It is not clear to me what your auditioning drill is. I infer that you are listening to all of the tubes sequentially on the day that they were brought in. I would never make decisions about the value of a tube based on such an experience. Most all of the tubes I have used have sounded quite different after their 24 hour break in (even if they have been previously used). I sort of agree with Knotscott's post; it really is all about synergy within your system as well as your predisposition for a particular tone. Happiness can be found in new production tubes as well as NOS. Caveat emptor. |
I use old production tubes that currently sell for much more than what my meager gear is worth, but I paid little for them years ago (purchasing, testing and culling them myself). I would pay more for them now if needed, but I already have everything I desire. This said, if you are dealing with TTM I suggest you do a deep Google dive on the owner/operation. Brent Jessee would be a good start for tested ready to go old production tubes.
DeKay |
Also question is how long will those tubes last ? Are you reasonably sure they are new or almost new ? Putting tubes that cost twice as much as the phono preamp would be extravagant, but if they are that good why not ? The alternative would be to upgrade the phono stage but then you could end up with wanting expensive tubes as well. It's an interesting situation. |
To answer the question, yes and maybe no. "Yes" to similar nirvana-like experience just from upgrading tubes, but I suspect hearing that difference gets attributed to several previous upgrades that help reveal the improvements, as well as the synergy between them all to have that nirvana magic. some changes are just "clearer" in certain areas without the magic synergy, and they tend to become more clinical sounding. The whole system is a chain. I find things like the right cable or the right tube to be the icing on the cake that brings the whole system to that magic level. Had you done the tube changes much earlier in your endeavors, would it have possibly changed what you heard or how you felt about it? p.s.: I am happy for you! Enjoy. |