Cartridge upgrade

I have the same TT.  I wasn't super impressed with the Virtuoso wood cartridge despite the great reviews.  I bought a Hana ML moving coil cartridge and it was a big improvement.  I'm using it with a Sutherland TZ Vibe phono preamp. 

Plenty of nice $1K or less carts to choose from. Get the next level table/arm combo first.

I use the  Kiseki Blue found for $750 used with low mileage. 

Upgrade turntable before cartridge. Your own deduction is sound. 

does it make sense to put a $3,400 cartridge on a $1,700 (base audiophile) table? 

If the tonearm has VTA adjustability feel free to upgrade the cartridge which will be a noticeable sonic upgrade.  

I would cap the budget at ~2K which would include the incredible sounding Lyra Delos, above which there are severely diminishing returns IMHO.  

I have the same turntable and had several cartridges on it, Ortofon 2m Black, Hana MH, Hana ML and now Hana Umami Blue all through Pathos In The Groove phono stage. Do not see any reason to change the table, at least at this point, despite having cartridge much more expensive than the table itself.

I would worry more about the phono stage rather than the TT although arm does matter.

With the Chinook you should be good to go!

I’m biased. The Kiseki Purple Heart NS is one of my favorite carts. I was a dealer for many years. FANTASTIC cartridge!

IMHO, you need a better table and arm.. The Chinook is SWEET, so no problems there.

@OP The Marantz is a effectively an entry level Clearaudio using technology from their earlier decks. Putting a cartridge priced at the level of the Kiseki on it is overkill. As a point of reference, you should have a listen to the new Concept Signature with something like a Hana ML on it and then consider an upgrade path from there. You can always sell on the Marantz to add to your upgrade fund.

@rfauto That is a fine little table and you can put any cartridge you want on it although you might have to add a little mass for some cartridges. It appears that Kiseki is pulling out of the American market as the usual retailers are not carrying them any more. You might look at the Audio Technica ART20, the Lyra Delos, The Soundsmith Voice and the Grado Statement. I would get The Soundsmith Voice because its tracking ability is top notch, it is very dynamic, it is high output which will give you a vastly better signal to noise ratio, Soundsmith's service is second to none and retipping is way more reasonable than any other cartridge. Buy it directly from Soundsmith. 

You can only expect top notch performance when the cartridge is set up correctly. You will need an alignment jig preferably for Lofgren B or A. The tone arm has a calibrated counter balance which is fine. Set anti skating so the arm drifts slowly towards the spindle between grooves in the run out area or on a blank side.  

Lots of conflicting advice in this thread.....

What other kind of advice is there?

id say get a better cartridge but don’t spend $3400. There are many great cartridges out there for under $1500 that will handily outperform the Clearaudio.

I have this table as well, and I've been very happy with it using an AT OC9XSL MC cart. I think people tend to underestimate the ability of this turntable. I have no desire to upgrade to a more expensive table with this combo. 

I have always been a "more for your money" type of buyer.  Audio Technica has a great lineup of cart's at a wide variety of price ranges. I would look at the VM line and you can choose different stylus types.  Go for the microline or shibata.  Bargain.

$3,400 will buy you more sonic benefits if spent on a cartridge than on a turntable.  You have a fine phono preamp and the turntable/tonearm is good enough, at least for now.  Think about your end game system and plot a path.  The Manley was a great first step.

Thanks everyone for your input. @mijostyn  I have a friend that has a Soundsmith Paua Mk II on his table. In my opinion it’s one of the best sounding cartridges I have heard. However, I think that costs more new than a Purple Heart. I would like to hear some of Soundsmth’s other offerings as I find their price to performance motivating. Has anybody had any experience with the Kiseki Blue Gold Spot. I wonder how their sonically different to a Purple Heart. 

I wonder why you are especially interested in Kiseki cartridges. Decades ago, the Kiseki brand was a significant player in high end audio and associated maybe with Sugano, who went on to Koetsu fame. I think in recent years the name has been co-opted by a different company and I’ve not seen such glowing reviews of the modern lineup, although they also resurrected some of the names, like Purple Heart, from days of yore. I would stick with more main stream brands, like AT, Ortofon, Dynavector, Soundsmith, Grado, etc, where I think you also will get more for your money. For example, the AT 9Xa and 9Xi cartridges that cost less than $1500 or even the Nagaoka MP500 for a shade under $1K. Or Soundsmith "The Voice" for similar money. Just my two cents. (If you're planning to use a SUT, do some reading before you pair a low output MI cartridge (e.g., SS or Grado) with a SUT.)

@lewm I kind of wanted to grab a Purple Heart as a fellow commentor mentioned Kiseki is pulling out of the US market. I guess I could grab one used somewhere down the line. However, I’m not against buying from Soundsmith or some of the makers that you mentioned. Over Christmas there was a sale on Hana Unami Blue’s. In hindsight I should have grabbed one. I kind of want to shy away from a cartridge that requires a step-up transformer.  My Chinook is the Upscale Audio Ed. that has up to 65 db of gain.  Is that enough?

@rfauto The Voice is $3000 and a great buy. I have heard it up against $10,000 MC cartridges and it more than held its own. Turn the volume all the way up with your preamp on Phono without any music playing. What do you hear? Now turn the volume one third of the way down. That is as loud as you will need to go with the Voice before blowing up your speakers. Hear any hiss? 

@lewm you are not kidding. I tried the Hyperion on my SUT and it was AWFUL. However, rf has a Manley Chinook, so not a problem. Are you still listening to the Nagaoka? I almost went for one, but on a nostalgic lark I picked up two Shure V15 V MR bodies in excellent condition. I'll try a few Jico styluses and sell one.

@rfauto You have a Manley Chinook and can play any cartridge MM, MI or MC without a step up transformer. You are cleared for any cartridge except perhaps the lowest output MCs with outputs below 0.2mv. You could use them but won't have the greatest signal to noise ratio. Moving Iron Cartridges like the Soundsmiths and Grados have one major advantage over other cartridges and that is a much lower effective mass. The moving system of the cartridge is much lighter and can follow the groove more accurately. I would take the Voice over any MC cartridge below the price of $6000. Then there is Soundsmith's customer service and relatively inexpensive rebuild prices. 

Find a gently used Soundsmith cartridge, i got a Carmen II 5 years ago and just had it rebuilt and I'm still way under the price a new one would cost. Soundsmith rebuilds their cartridges for around 20% the cost of a new one and they sound fantastic.

You will get a great sonic improvement by investing $3.4K in either the turntable or cartridge. If you are looking long termed, I would start with the turntable ($5K would get you up another level)… but you easily could get a bigger incremental improvement swapping cartridges. Do both, even better.

Cartridge 1st!

You will definitely hear cartridge differences on a most basic TT, think 'preferred' rather than better, and you may or may not hear differences between arms and/or spinners.

You can always move a cartridge to a 'better' arm or table later.

I did not know that the Voice cost as much as $3000.  Since that is so, I could not recommend it as a cost-saving alternative to the Kiseki.  Albeit, taken by itself, I take Mijostyn's word for its excellence. (I never heard one.)  To the OP, if Kiseki is pulling out of the US market, that might mean their cartridges are not selling well here for any one of a number of reasons.  But keep in mind, Kiseki of today is not the same as vintage Kiseki.  I also omitted to mention Hana; they also make excellent modestly priced cartridges.  And my other main point is that I do not at all subscribe to the idea that there is any sort of linear correlation between price of a cartridge and sonic excellence.

Mijo, Yes, I am still listening to the MP500 but switching back and forth with some others.

FWIW, have owned a Kiseki Purpleheart NS for several years.  Recently installed a Hana Umami Blue just for a change.  So far the Kiseki sounds better to my ears.  Excellent cartridge.  The Blue is fine, but there’s a magic to the Kiseki; it is full sounding, sweet, detailed, with an excellent and realistic mid range that is clear and unmuddied.  The Umami probably has some time remaining to fully bloom, but the Kiseki is special; certainly preferable to the Ortofon Cadenze Bronze I ran for years.  

Of course a more expensive cartridge will play and sound better on your turntable. The same way a set of Pirelli PZeros would on a Toyota Camry. You will not benefit from everything the cartridge has to offer. 

I've had the Virtuoso wood on a Clearaudio Solution table, and really was left wondering what the big deal was. It never impressed me over $200 cartridges.

I recently bought a Hana moving coil but haven't taken the time to switch over (I have to pull my preamp out, open it up and reset the tabs for the correct load) and then take the time to dial in the new cartridge. I do it soon as this summer I just haven't had time to do much critical listening. A dealer I spoke with likes the Hana's and Dynavector MCs for under $2K for what it's worth.

I have had both the Kisecki blue and purple heart.  There is no doubt that the Purple blows the blue out of the water.  Hard to find a better sounding cartridge at that price.  To get the most out of it though, proper cartridge set up is key.

@mijostyn thanks for your input regarding a cartridge for my table.  I made a stop at my local Clearaudio dealer last week.  He agreed with you that the satisfy tonearm on my table could handle a significant cartridge upgrade.  I was planning on moving forward with a Soundsmith Voice purchase but was told by my local audio shop that my phono stage might have trouble properly loading that cartridge.  I ended up ordering a Hana Umami Blue.  It hasn't arrived yet but I'm really looking forward to using it.  Cheers,  Russ

@rfauto If that is really the case, that idiot had no idea what he is talking about. Your Chinook is capable of applying the correct 47 k ohm load the Voice needs, Just read the diagram on the back of the unit!!! Return the Blue. The Voice is so much superior it is not funny. That idiot must have been trying to sell you another cartridge. 

@rfauto I also forgot to mention you have to go into the unit and set gain to 45 dB. The instructions tell you how to do that. On the back you set the dip switches to 47k.  

@rfauto what dealer are you working with? It would be one that I would want to stay clear of. 

That’s kind of what I thought too. I currently have my Clearaudio Virtuoso V1 MM carts gain set at 45db, load resistance at 47k ohms and a load capacitance of 100pf. So, the moving iron Soundsmith is virtually the same….  The other reason I went with the Hana was that I got $800 off of the $2500 list by trading in my old cart. That got me into the sub $2000 for a new cartridge.  It made more sense going that direction on my current table. I’m still going to buy a Voice at some point, probably when I buy another turntable. I’ve been looking at VPI Classic Signatures. Add a 10’ Fatboy tonearm and a Soundsmith Voice. I’ve got some house projects going on. So, I’m not quite ready to spend the cash.