Sometimes, AI can be your friend:
An integrated amplifier increases the strength of electrical signals to reproduce sound. It combines a preamp, power amp, and other functions into a single unit.
IOW, an integrated amplifier already includes a preamp so, no, if you have an integrated amplifier you should not need a stand-alone preamp.
Back in the day, preamps amplified very small electrical signals so they could then be adequately amplified by the power amplifier. When digital players and DACs began outputting higher voltage signals, some people began using them to drive power amplifiers directly. In those cases, the only other thing needed was a method to adjust the volume, so passive volume controls were introduced and, later, on-board volume controls began to show up in DACs.
However, some listeners began to notice that their systems sounded better with a preamp in the signal reproduction chain. Why would a preamp be necessary when the DAC has enough output voltage to drive the power amp directly? It turns out that having active preamp circuitry, even in cases where the DAC output offers plenty of voltage, improves the impedance ratio between the output from the DAC to the input into the amplifier, which reduces the effects of the interconnect cables. As with most things in audio, there are trade-offs and the success of getting good sound without a preamp depends on the length of cables, the specific equipment used, as well as listener preferences. Therefore, one size does not fit all.
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...oh, I DO have a rather nice older pre I was gifted with...a long story there, as are most around my maelstrom....it's 'on-call' in the 6x6 for A/B, and has onboard room eq....
...as does the 'puter....which has 3 along with 'other' cheap tricks... 👍😎
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+1 for the comment by Soix on the tube preamp plus solid state power amp; when I switched from all solid state, then to all tube, and then to tube preamp with solid state monobloc power amps, I achieved a significantly higher level of sound quality. I think I have hit near end state for the amount I have spent on my system that has both digital and analog sources. Even my non-audiophile wife—who loves good music—commented on the realism … achieved with the tube/solid state combination.
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A good>better pre is necessary if running source to PA IF the PA doesn't have level controls onboard. Adding switching between source and PA allows for nearly anything one could desire inline between...
....which is how I've been able to be 'pre-less' ( No, not peerless, which is another issue for another day...) for quite awhile now. A 6x6 matrix unit allows to 'daisy-chain' as desired with whatever makes the boats float around here...
Generally and octave+parametric room correcting eq handles dB dosage daily.
'Upstream' of the matrix is the digital 'source' switching, with 8 in/out with 3 monitor loops to select (one 'main' with 2 additional) and a diy TT 3 in with a RIAA in/out control if 'upstream' from a 'Real pre' with a 'TT in' pair onboard (getting rarer of late...but I've not shopped integrateds or receivers lately either).
Yes, there is a lot of ic's involved.....'decent', but if I went sorta SOTA it'd co$t more than all else involved and would be kinda like pig lipstick. *L*
It's more set up for the arcane audio acts I'm up to and pleases these ears.
...and it's likely what one would want if one is diy'ng speakers....sans enclosures.
I'm 'into' a enclosure-less variant in one pursuit.....
Yes, you'll have to ask wtf that means.... ;)...
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at a certain budget - say X, your best bet is to get the best integrated for X. When your budget is 2X, you will get a better sound by buying a preamp and a power amp. And then, as technology changes, tomorrow some company may come up with an integrated for 2X that sounds better than the separates. It's a never ending cycle...
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Separate preamps and power amps provide greater flexibility to customize SQ by mixing and matching brands and models at the additional expense of interconnects, power cords, racking area, and vibration isolation. Some will say separate chassis provide better SQ because of better power regulation due to separate supplies and better isolation from interference. However, I have found modern integrated amps produce near equivalent or better SQ than some separates at the same price point. I went from separates to an integrated system. I do believe a seperate DAC and server/streamer sounds better than most fully integrated systems and here, the additional flexibility is worth it. I also find that running a DAC with preamp capabilities through an integrated amp or preamp sounds better than using the DAC as the preamp direct to a power amp. but it seems counterintuitive. The shortest signal path should produce the best SQ. I cannoli explain why other than my preamps or integrated amp is of better quality than the DAC preamp function.
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I think Luxman has a good volume attenuator if that is the issue
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A good separate preamp will 95% ofthe time sound muchbetter
most integrated amps have cheap little roundAlps volume attenuators which are not good and Rob detail ,you want a zr2R resistor ladder attenuator, then relay
for top quality.
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I make the world best sound audio system with an integrated amp. My audio system will sound worse if I used a separate pre-amp and power-amp configuration system. Also, my system will sound worse if I used separate transport and DAC. Alex/Wavetouch audio
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if you have an integrated amp, you don’t “need“ a preamp, but most people would likely say that separates of comparable make or quality to the integrated app will be better.
Some say omitting the preamp and running the dac directly to your power amp is superior and a lot of others who say just the opposite. I’ve tried both in my system and definitely prefer the preamp, I think it adds a density and richness to the sound that is missing otherwise. There are, however, plenty of knowledgeable people who disagree. Like so many matters in this hobby, it’s a matter of personal preference, not a hard and fast rule
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Some say a separate preamp offers more choices. Some say it introduces more possibility of unwanted noise because of the extra component and cables to connect them. Some say it's mostly a way for dealers to make more money. I fall into the latter two camps.
Then there's the mostly erroneous belief in "synergy." If you believe in that, an integrated amp reduces that possibility.
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I think it is pretty obvious why an integrated amp, in most cases, is not going to sound as good as separates. I know of several people that drive their tube integrated amps with a separate tube preamp. In my experience the preamp section rarely matches the quality of the amp section or vice versa. The only reasons to go with an integrated would be size, cost or simplicity.
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My understanding is that source components with variable outputs typically have a higher impedance and lower maximum voltage than would be the case with a good preamp or line stage, so the latter “drive” the amp input stage with more authority, not only relating to the volume level, but dynamics and the ability to generate an expansive sound image…source material permitting. Very few integrated amps put the same attention to parts and power supply as separate preamps have. That said, I am in the process of consolidating a system with a separate line stage (C-J PF-R), phono preamp (Phono Box DS-3), and headphone amp (Head Box S2) into a new one that does all 3 in 1…the new Quad 33.
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Mulviling and ghdprentice hit the nail on the head. A good preamp is so important. I don't mind a little coloration but a nice preamp adds body and texture. I've tried a couple times without a pre and the music was analytical and boring. I don't care what anyone says there is nothing like a good preamp in your system. A former friend of mine argued until he was blue I was wrong. I kept laughing and said you will not convince me because I know better.
I wish I could remember who wrote a review on preamps in a system but they unequivocally stress they are very beneficial.
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I have a luxman L-507z integrated amp. I havent seen anyone put a tube pre-amp on it yet. Altho with cornwalls it might be interesting.
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Some people like a preamp even with an integrated because they want to use room correction like DIRAC
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I don't understand the OP's original question. If you own an integrated, why would you need an integrated?
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Another thought on design and options for sonic purity. My integrated only has one input direct wired to the tube stage. Bypassed the selector circuit as I only need one input for my dac. This is another step that can deliver sonic benefits. Again, for today’s digital only systems not requiring multi-inputs or phono. Ralph that would be a nice option for the digital purist. One last idea. Please no more fuses. Simply have the on/off switch be a magnetically controlled circuit breaker of high quality. Another nice gain in sonic performance.
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A good hybrid integrated amp can have a nice active tube line stage. Mine happens to have one employing a nice separate power supply and tranny for the preamp section. Very little sacrifice and in some cases none! It depends on the design of the integrated amp and the use of short signal paths.
Yes, monoblock amps can indeed have a sonic advantage. Not simply because you have a separate chassis, rather that plus the design. Some stereo amps can sound as good or better than monoblocks depending on the design. No absolutes, but rather case by case…..
With the advent of GAN and chip amplifiers one can certainly fit a good active, tube line stage in a nice integrated complete with extra shielding! I can see Ralph of Atma-Sphere building a great sounding integrated amp with an active tube linestage and his Class D Gan output in one larger chassis. I am sure it would compete with many expensive separates. Will we see that soon Ralph? 🤓
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@troutbum If you have an integrated amp you may not need a preamp.
But a preamp can be very useful if you have monoblock amplifiers. The reason is simple: the longer the speaker cable, the less resolution and impact you'll have out of the speakers.
Monoblocks allow you to keep speaker cables short. This might mean you have to run long interconnect cables to the amps. But if you have a good preamp, and especially if it is balanced line, that's no problem and you can have no loss in resolution or bandwidth doing that- no downside. A good preamp also reduces artifact you get from interconnect cables (usually this isn't a problem in an integrated amp).
Integrated amps usually trade off some sonic performance for size. You can see where this is going: the best systems often use monoblock amps with a preamp.
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I have 4 source components, turntable, tuner, SACD player and music server/player. I need a preamp. My 72 year old ears are not that good any longer, I use tone controls now. Never did before and that was dumb, suffering through some God-awful recordings because I was stubborn. I love my McIntosh preamp, blue meters and all.
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I like minimum systems. So, one day I hooked my CD player directly into a top shelf stereo high-power amp. The CD had a volume level adjustment. It was just awful. You could almost hear the digital bits. I don't think anyone with a top system is skipping the pre-amp.
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I have used active, passive and just volume controls on components. The best sound without question, for me, has always come from a active preamp. The most disappointing for me has been the performance I have gotten from several very high quality passives.
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This is an issue for folks without a good system and realize they can build one without one with all digital. Sounds great... then they put a preamp into their system and realize all the body and naturalness of the sound they were missing. If they don’t do it, they may never know. There are lots of testimony to this effect scattered around this site.
@ghdprentice 100% my experience. With a good tube preamp - more palpable, alive, "full" sounding. Imaging is more holographic 3D, too. More satisfying and immersive.
I defintely won’t go back. I DO think it’s a coloration. But a really beautiful and special one - a happy accident the universe left for us to discover. We’re NOT scientific instrumentation. There is a very real possibility that our perception of musical information is maximized with reproductions that are "colored" in a certain way beneficial (symbiotic?) to our organic interpretations.
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I wish I had an explanation for the vastly better sound you get with a good preamp. I don't. But in almost every case it is. This may change over time as DACs incorporate ramps into their circuitry... also, separate boxes almost always sound better.
This is an issue for folks without a good system and realize they can build one without one with all digital. Sounds great... then they put a preamp into their system and realize all the body and naturalness of the sound they were missing. If they don't do it, they may never know. There are lots of testimony to this effect scattered around this site.
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No preamp here, only a phono stage and switchbox.
Or as Mapletree Audio calls it, a Line Router.
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I feel if you have a power amp ,we'll yes you need one...if you have a receiver nope.
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I have been a huge preamp user/buyer/seller over the years. I love a great tube preamp having owned at least 15 or so over the years. I have also built several very good tube preamps over the years. Today’s hybrid integrated amps are so good that I do not think sound quality is an issue anymore. The last two integrated amps I have owned keep pace with separates priced up to $12,000 - $15,000. In addition, you save the cost of one set of ICs and a power cord. Also, the short signal paths of a rightly constructed integrated coupled with eliminating the cable and connectors of separates is a potential sound quality enhancer!
I now own a John Tucker/eXemplar Audio made hybrid integrated with a tube preamp section. He included some nice upgrades (parts quality) I wanted and the result is wonderful. My previous Circle Labs A200 was also a hybrid design with tube front end that sounded very good.
So a preamp is certainly not a must if most concerned with sound quality. We have many good choices in integrated amps today!
For me the preamp was always the “heart” of a great system in the past. However if not into vinyl, than in today’s systems the front end dac/server combo can now play that role. I have found my dac is now the heart of my system.
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Active preamps have always provided the soul for my systems, performers become real live flesh and blood, totally indispensable for me.
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I can't imagine life without preamps. I own several. Actually most of us who play vinyl records have two, because the phonostage is a preamp, or a pre-preamp if you want to think of it that way. Then there is the line stage, which usually has all the controls on it, volume, input selection, outputs for amps and subs and so on. Think of it as your control center. An integrated amp has all of these things "integrated" into one box, but all the parts are there. So for most of us, having a preamp, or two is absolutely the way of it. I will leave those you want to work around it to their own devices. For the majority of us, having preamps is sine qua non, that is latin, meaning: without which nothing.
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I’m ready to admit my favorite tube preamps are a "coloration" (i.e. a pleasing distortion) added to the sound. But I really, truly prefer the resulting sound with them in the chain. If you want something that is a straight, transparent pass-through (i.e. "wire with gain"), then solid state or passive is the better way to go and I think there are many fine preamps which can get you there.
Back in the day of "just" analog sources, a preamp with some extra gain could be quite useful. Now we have digital sources that can push out 4 - 10 Volts from their XLR outputs, and your preamp is simply acting as a fancy attenuator (to be sure - attenuator quality matters!). You might as well look at something like a nice Khozmo passive, if you’re doing digital only (being careful to match impedance between source and amp, the goal being a 1:10 ratio on each side).
If you’re doing BOTH analog and digital sources, then you might have an awkward dance of optimizing for both of those with one preamp. Though these days, there are plenty of options for getting the analog source levels up on par with digital - e.g. using a SUT, or a high gain phono like Pass Labs or ARC Reference.
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@erik_squires I agree with your statement. I run SoundLab Majestic 745 speakers. For power I use the Hegel H30 SS mono blocks. I had the matching Hegel SS preamp for a while but found a significant sound improvement (IMHO) when I introduced the BAT Rex 3 Line Stage tube preamp. In my application, it's the best of both worlds. Cheers.
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Choice and sound quality. You don’t "need" a preamp.
A good example of having separates is an electrostatic speaker. You love the sound of tubes, but the tube amps tend to be poor performers (queue the chorus of A’goners who will "not always.." this post) so you mix a tube pre wiht solid state amp.
Also, simply power. Having separates allows you to up/downgrade your power size and try different amps (D, A, A/B) without changing the pre.
In a sense, it's similar to having a separate DAC from your preamp. Having these separate lets you change your DAC while keeping everything else.
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Preamps are becoming a bit of an anachrononism. I don't use one. You need volume control and you need the ability to switch between sources. Today most people have 1 or 2 sources: digital or vinyl or both. Almost all DACs have an analog output signal ready to go to your amp without a preamp.
Many DACs now have volume control. If they don't, many user interface programs such as roon have volume control. I use a Transformer volume control which is wonderful.
Most DACs can accept multiple digital inputs so your CD transport or your music server can be switched through your DAC.
If you do vinyl, you'll need a phono-preamp which is a seperate. if you do digital and vinyl, you'll need a way to switch between 2 analog sources. My Lampizator DAC has an Analog input so that it can be used to switch to a second analog source. I have a custom amp which I had built with 2 inputs so I can accept a second input from my HT system to use my front speakers for HT.
So I'm never very mainstream. Most people use a preamp. All dealers will tell you that you need one (they sell them). But my goal is to touch the signal path as little as possible. Preamps can be like swiss army knives and the signal coming out doesn't even resemble the signal going in. People shop for one that they enjoy the way the overprocessed signal sounds.
just my 2c and it's worrth what you paid for it.
Jerry
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The way your question is worded, the correct answer may be, you don't need a preamp as it is already incorporated into your integrated amp.
The answer from @soix above, suggests the preamp section of an integrated amp is not sufficient, and adding a separate tube preamp will improve the sound.
All further discussion will be subjective opinions on who makes the best preamp. 🤣 Cheers.
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If you have an integrated amp a separate preamp/line stage is not needed.
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Some people prefer separates, some people prefer integrated. No hard and fast rule.
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Take any solid state integrated and hook a really good tube preamp to it and you’ll have your answer.
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