Fritz Speakers

Best speaker value that I can imagine!  Super Quality drivers, well matched crossovers and beautiful classic wood cabinets.  I feel like a criminal for stealing my Rev 5 SE’s on the used market for $1200 shipped to my door.  Best purchase decision I have made hands down!

@larsman - I think everyone has a right to objectively review his works as a finished product.

It makes me sad though when people who can’t/won’t build their own speakers start looking at the value of his work as merely the sum of the parts. :)

So I used the word "dissected" specifically to refer to people trying to figure out if Fritz speakers are worth it based on parts.  Certainly very very few speakers are worth it based on parts, but Fritz is among the highest value.

@erik_squires - I've got Fritz speakers too, but getting 'dissected' here on Audiogon? Almost every mention of Fritz or his speakers I've seen here or elsewhere has been very positive...

Typical driver to product markup is 10x, even more if the speakers are built in house.

As I've said before, and even started a thread about this, it disturbs me greatly that Fritz, who sells his products for bargain prices, gets his speakers dissected here on Audiogon in ways absolutely no one would treat a Focal, B&W or Klipsch.

It is embarrassing to see people nit pick his speakers, which are stellar performers and huge values, apart based on part cost.

I have the Fritz Carrera BE speakers since last Oct. Just added in May a Rythmic FT12SE sub. Only have room for one in my 12X16 highly treated room. More than enough easy integration.Crossed over around 45 Brian's Rythmic defaults are pretty close to what I'm set to running.

Rogue CMII amp, Yggdrasil+ LIM boards, PSA memory transport, Node2i.Yes I do vinyl too.

Super is all I gotta say!

Recommended.

Question the Fritz speakers value because the Philharmonic are way low at $2k?

I do not know the parts cost for Dennis's products. 

Fritz Revelator from scanspeak is $320 and the S/B acoustics tweeter is $409. the tweeter. So you have $1,400 in just drivers.

The XO parts-who knows $200? The Boxes $500. $2,100. Most big names then use a factor of 4-5 $7,600 to $9,000k. Fritz MSRP is $3,700. Steal them used for

$2,200 or $200 over cost.

That is value.

I got a pair of Fritz Carrera BE's a few years ago after Fritz brought them by my place in San Francisco. They are wonderful indeed and Fritz is a great guy! But time for an upgrade still, and did an audition for upgrades the other day. I brought the Fritz's along for reference and I preferred them to a few speakers that cost almost 3x as much, but I then heard Marten Oscar Duos, and yeah, that's what I wanted, so I just put in an order. I'll have my Fritz's up for sale when those Martens show up. 

I was more the satisfied with the bass from my Fritz Carrera BE speakers but then I added 2 rel t/7x subs and could not believe it.  Bass is incredible but what is even better is that the midrange and soundstage seems wider and deeper.  Once properly integrated into my system I could not imagine not having the subs. 

I have owned several Fritz Speakers as well as many other Brands. The Fritz Carrera BE is great at low listening levels. 

i know fritz personally, he is local to me, we talk reasonably often and i have a good sense of his lifestyle

he is not killin’ it... no bentleys no yachts 😂... seriously, he is selling the speakers at a very fair price and his profit margin is hardly high...

love it when folks complain about other folks’ little businesses making sooooo much money... so much easier than trying to start such a business and seeing how the costs add up... people who have experience actually running businesses don't spout this nonsense

The drivers used in Fritz speakers are high quality and relatively expensive.  Then factor in the cost of a real wood veneers on the cabinets, assembly time.  Well, the cost is not at all out of line. 

The manufacturers you need to question are often the big boys out there.  The cost of their drivers relative to msrp is often shockingly low and disappointing to say the least.

I purchased my Carbon 7s last year. John provides a 30 day trial with right to return if dissatisfied He knew I was busy moving into a new home told me that  I need not be worried about the 30 days. I got back to him after a few days and responded to him that he need not worry about a return. 

Regarding the subwoofer discussion, the Carbon 7s are not in need of a sub as the LRS+ are in a small room. There is far more information below 50Hz with them. 

FYI

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/poor-fritz?highlight=Fritz%2B

I will add that my Carbon 7 SE mk ii's were $2600 when I purchased them last year.

(I think the price has gone up a little bit since then). 

So they aren't all $3500 like the Carreras.

Seems like a year ago I literally wrote a posting here saying that Fritz, being a small time operator, gets grief no one would give a big brand. Why is it that a small speaker shop gets 10x the demanding internal scrutiny that they will give a Wilson or B&W?

Given the parts quality, unique crossover topology and execution, Fritz remains an amazing value compared to a Wilson or Magico, and a better performer than many in the size category that cost much more. Go scrutinize a Wilson crossover. Please, I dare you.

I seriously don’t get where this sense of entitlement comes from.

Could someone give us a breakdown of the cost for each component including xover, tweeter, woofer, wires and terminal/post. Finally, the business seems out of a direct sale model so no middle man (dealer) is involved so I wonder how much is the markup? This appears a solid performer and a good investment IF the cost is justifiable.

Since when do companies or manufactures give a cost breakdown of every component in their product? I don’t know of many nor would I except that as a consumer tbh.

I can’t comment on the actual costs to source all the parts, produce, keep inventoried, sell and ship the speakers, which as you mentioned are comprised of lots of different components that presumably come from different places and vendors....but I do know it’s a one-man operation who builds the cabs to a very high standard, uses top shelf drivers, a unique crossover assembly that requires tuning by ear, real wood veneers, a high quality grill system and includes US shipping on a very heavy pair of speakers in the pricing.

Those attributes are some of the motivation that pushed me to purchase directly from John rather than buying a used pair at the time which would’ve saved me almost a grand. I like supporting certain makers/producers when I can.

I’ve never heard the BMR monitor but I’ve been thinking about buying pair for my dad when we update his system as he downsizes later this year.

Could someone explain why such a "plainly" designed pair of speakers cost that much as $3.5k. Is the veneer finish made of real wood? Could someone give us a breakdown of the cost for each component including xover, tweeter, woofer, wires and terminal/post. Finally, the business seems out of a direct sale model so no middle man (dealer) is involved so I wonder how much is the markup? This appears a solid performer and a good investment IF the cost is justifiable.

This questioning makes sense when one compare this product with PHILHARMONIC BMR monitor which is beautifully crafted, highly raved sounding speakers but only costs $2k.

When you speak with John (Fritz) please tell him I sent you.

I need some absolution. You want the speaker I have. Carrera 7 BE.

Curious if ≈ 50 Hz would be too high for the Sub frequency given that the Carbon 7’s are 3db down at 38Hz

Would too high of a sub crossover interfere constructively with the mains and all of a sudden it’s way too bassy?

the spec is +/- 3db so you can count on the bass cutoff to be -6 db from the level of bulk of the low treble and midrange ... thus start at 50 hz for the xo and adjust... the speaker is probably down 3 db closer to 50 hz -- incidentally, the good thing about rel subs as that both the xo frequency as well as level dials have detents, so you can track where you are in its range and adjust by small step

fritz is on this board frequently he may also chime in

PS - I wrote a blog about how wrong our assumptions are about how a speaker will sound in the room vs. the specs.

https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2021/12/room-speakers-eq.html

If you are doing Fritz + ub I strongly encourage you to plug the ports and raise tbe sub Hz as high as you can. Try it. 😁 but before you buy a sib you should listen in room.  Hi speakers put out a lot more bass in room than you think

Thanks for the feedback @jjss49 ​​@atmasphere 

these are worth watching ... regarding rel subs integration

https://youtu.be/KGR6iw9FpkI

and here is a really good one for you mike @mesch

https://youtu.be/nnQDkT8VYRg -- lil maggies with rel and xa25

I don’t have first-hand experience with the brand but I’ve noticed his models use fairly large ports, which will contribute significantly to low level dynamics. His series crossovers should also aid in that I’d imagine. 

Based on what @atmasphere and @jjss49 stated, I believe I will start with a single sub for use with both my Carbon 7 and LSR+ speakers. Likely purchase the small REL with 8" driver. Run speakers full range with CO set around 50hz for both speakers. 

my 2 cents on sub integration

i use rels (a pair) and their high level inputs, thus the main speakers are run full range, i place the two rels asymmetrically

i follow the instructions carefully on set up and it always works out well, plenty of speed and seamless transitions (meaning you can’t hear it even if you try)

i agree with ralph, keep the xo as low as possible, i would say with fritz’s probably around 50 hz as a starting point, provided the speaker is set a couple feet away from room boundaries

@j_andrews Keeping the crossover of the sub as low as possible makes it easier to integrate. If its got output above 80Hz it can draw attention to itself. At 80Hz the waveform is 14 feet long. So below that point, bass is entirely ambient in the room before your ears can even know what the bass note is. For this reason the bass can be mono.

I ran a single powered sub with the Fritz Carbon 7s at the recent AXPONA show. The sub was a Golden Ear X, using dual 8" drivers and I used it for the bottom octave only. I didn’t roll off the Carbon 7s.

Since its a powered sub, I set its controls on the rear panel so that the crossover was at the lowest point, 45Hz. I figured the Carbon 7s were good to that frequency!

Then it was a matter of setting the volume control. That took a bit more work, since a lot of recordings don’t have much information below 40Hz. But I had a few on hand. Even still it took me a day to get the setting right, so it wasn’t until the middle of the 2nd day that I had it dialed to my satisfaction. Once that was done you really couldn't tell it was running until it was shut off.

I angled the sub so its output bounced at an angle off of the wall behind it. I found this got me more evenly distributed bass throughout the room.

I use this same technique at home with my Carbon 6s. As long as you don’t play the system super loud the Fritzs can handle not being crossed over. You’re just playing them as a regular speaker.

So its not a big project!

Thanks for your insight @jjss49 

Regarding "well integrated into the system", that is perhaps the sticking point I've been having.  I have two fast Omega deep hemp powered subs with 8" drivers.  I've certainly had moments where I felt they were integrated into my system whether the Fritz's were on deck or the LRS's...However, my stereo is traditional and I don't have any subwoofer integration or dsp capability at the moment.  That seems like a big project to embark on.

In your experience, does well integrated mean the mains aren't running full range and are high passed somewhat?  

I know people are using minidsp to do this, but doesn't that preclude one from choosing their own dac?

Perhaps this is best discussed on a new thread 

thanks

JS

i am a big fan of fritz and his speakers... they are terrific in absolute terms and excellent values to boot

that said, being smallish standmounts, they are physically limited in terms of bass response, as mostly all are... it is simply physics

some, in smallish listening environments may feel satisfied with the lower range of these fine speakers, that is terrific... our listening satisfaction is a function of our prior points of reference and our expectations

but to be blunt, to add a good sub (and ideally two) well integrated into the system brings the sonic presentation to another whole level to realism, palpability and impact (i say this with no exaggeration)

whether it is worth the cost and the trouble, depends entirely on the specific listener, but there is no doubt the positive return is there and aplenty

Thanks all for chiming in. These will stay on my short list.

@j_andrews  I also run the Fritz without subs. Plenty of bass for my bedroom sized room. I must say I also considered the use of an active crossover for use with the LRS+ however rethinking that. The cost of a quality one might be better spent elsewhere.

@mesch yes the Fritz don't require the power the LRS do...not anywhere close. 
Fortunately my Van Alstine amp plays very nicely with both sets of speakers. 

But ...the treat is, surprisingly I can also use my 3.5 watt 2a3 SET amp with the Fritz with great results.

I've been running these Fritz speakers without subs for a few weeks.   Honestly I don't miss the subs.  I have just enough room gain that everything is nice and full and balanced.   Am considering a digital crossover as some point to relieve the Fritz's (and amp) of a little low end duty and pass that on to stereo subs...but haven't embarked on that adventure yet.   But...there are plenty of happy listeners with Fritz speakers going without subs. 

+1 @jaudio1  I also own the Carbon and 7 SEmk2s.  Also happen to own the LRS+ speakers. The Fritz do not require anything near the power (current) required by the LRS+. A 20wpc tube amp works well.

I'm a newish owner/user of Fritz Carbon 7 SE mk2 speakers.

I purchased directly from John last summer.

My listening is usually in the mid 60's (db's) with peaks in the low 70's.  Sometimes when my wife is upstairs I'll listen very low and I'm astonished how, after allowing my hearing to acclimate to such a different presentation, how full and engaging the sound is.  It's like those speakers don't give up the low end or the top end when the volume goes low.  As long as I can keep my tinnitus in check, I can listen a long time at these late night low volumes and be totally in the music.

I couldn't be happier with that purchase.  I sometimes swap in my Magnepan LRS's but they typically get pulled for the Fritz's after a couple of days.

I have the Fritz Rev 7 SE and they sound excellent at low volume.  I usually listen at 40-70 db depending on the hour of the day.  They disappear regardless of volume and have outstanding soundstage and imaging as well.  They are a bit laid back, at least in my system, but I like that as I can listen without fatigue for hours.  I listen to a wide range of musical styles and genres and they work well with all of them.   I am running them with an MA8900 and Denafrips Pontus II.  Wonderful speakers, smooth and very well balanced.

I would advise inquiring about a Xover upgrade I owned 2 pair ,and the drivers 

are excellent ,Xover is done good but so much better with top quality parts 

instead of $2 resistors, ask for Path audio ,they are $30 each but I believe only 2 resistors ,and for capacitors the VH audio Odam capacitors , check them out 

it will add maybe $6-700 more but worth every penny . 
This applies to most any brand  speaker under $15,000 they always skimp on the quality I have modded speakers mainly for friends and family for over 20 years your Sonic purity and details are improved for sure , ask about the option.

rule of thumb when a company will not show or describe the Xover or say proprietary it’s BS .you just want to know the brand name of the parts ,and all these parts would fit , go to VH audio and check and look up Path audio resistors , parts connecxion carry the resistors , and for speaker terminals don’t settle for cheap brass connectors , the WBT next gen speaker terminals are only $40 each , essential for best sonics they are gold  over Copper.

I have the Fritz Carrera BE speakers.  They are the best low volume speaker I have owned.  I can't imagine ever selling these speakers...they are just that good. 

I have listened extensively to both the Carrera and the Carbon 7 mk II and they're both lovely speakers. I cannot recall about the "low listening" element.

However, your question raises another one for me, namely,

"Don't speakers perform differently at low levels depending on the amplifier driving them?"

If the answer to that question is "yes" than without knowing which amplifiers people are using to drive the Fritz, I'm not sure you're collecting useful information.

I've never read anything negative about Fritz speakers.

I have a pair of Carrera BE’s and they are INCREDIBLE at high OR low volume! 
 

First of all, since my days with the Rogers LS3 5A I love little loudspeakers. If well designed they do  75% of the spectrum better than most larger system under one condition. You hand that bottom 25% to a subwoofer and use a two way crossover preferably digital. You will need two subs and you will have to cross somewhere between 90 and 120 Hz. Look at the phase and impedance curves. They go wonky under 100 Hz. The little woofers are really midrange drivers and trying to make bass requires large excursions which Doppler distort everything else the woofer is doing like Ella's voice. This is less noticeable at low levels. Subwoofers however turn David into Goliath just in case you want to turn it up on occasion. 

The Fritz is a great speaker. I would compare them the Harbeth P3s and the Falcon Acoustics speakers. I know the Harbeths really well as I set up my son in law up with a system around them. They are every bit as good if not better than the old Rogers and a great value. Their tweeter is ferrofluid cooled. With subs they go louder than anyone can tolerate and they image beautifully. I have not heard the Falcons but they get universally good reviews. 

The perfect amp for any of these speakers is the Atma-Sphere MA1. Even listening at low levels peaks can run surprisingly high and you have to be able to cover them or the speaker will sound constrained dynamically. The first watt is important but so is every other. If you have a wildly efficient loudspeaker smaller amps are fine. None of these speakers fit that description. 

Put two Kef KF92 subs under any of these speakers and you will be stylin. 

You circled back to the right choice. My ears do not tolerate levels above 75dB for long. I own the Carrera BE 7s. Perfect speaker with the SB acoustic BE tweeter that is not too hot. I use a Pass 25INT. Good match. 

I have the Fritz Carrera BEs running with a First Watt Sit-3 and they sound great at low to medium volume, where I do most of my listening.  

To be clear, I should have said low volume and not low level. That's what I'm after, but I think you all get it.

I own a pair of the Fritz Rev 5 SE, which are no longer offered, and they are very good at 50-70db where I prefer to listen.  I even run them as front speakers on  a Midfi Home Theatre amp in direct 2-channel mode.  I’m sure they would be even better with a nice 2 channel amp set up.

they are excellent at low level detail ... especially the be tweet models

I've been playing the Carbon 6s, which is his smallest speaker, for about a year. I only play them at lower levels, since they are part of my bedroom system. I didn't want to sacrifice detail just because its a smaller system. They do just fine!