Great speaker sounds terrible in my room?

@jl1ny

room boundary l-f reinforcement is a big deal for dynamic box speakers, especially ones with somewhat limited bass output, so you may need to change your setup significantly to get those ref 3a’s working right... move em closer to the room corners, start at 2 ft like in the store, then fiddle gradually...

You liked the speakers at the sellers 2 feet from the wall and you don't like them 10 feet from the wall. Have you tried pushing them back closer to the wall? They are small monitors and likely need some bass reinforcement from the room you're not giving them.

Agree with jond...get them closer to the wall.

@jond @roxy54 

I have verrrry limited placement, I’ll experiment tomorrow. Thing is, at best I can move them back another 3 feet so they will still be 7ft away from the wall. These Ref 3A’s have 8” woofers, my ProAc’s have 6.5” and can rock my room. I’ve never expected this just based on the specs of the 3A…I had little ass KEF’s in this room that sounded better!

Beard the speaker stand. Just use a piece of cardboard the width of the speaker all the way to the floor from the bottom of the speaker. I bet that fixes it.

THEN understand what you did and make a real nice looking piece to make permanent. Not all bass drivers are created equal or stands perfect for every speaker either.. The right stand can make or break a stand mount..

You can place them where you want, with a lot better BASS..

Regards

Each speaker has a different ideal location, so you have to experiment. The comparison is between each pair at their respective ideal location.  If you use an experimental method, like the “Sumiko” method, you will be able to find many different locations where bass will be good. Sometimes a change in location of one speaker by as little as an inch will effect a huge change.  I would bet that you could find decent bass fairly close to the spots where your speakers are currently located if you use this method.  You could have located your speakers, by chance, in a node where certain critical bass frequencies reflecting around the room are cancelling.

Try reversing the polarity on both speakers and see if that helps!

Am I correct in understanding that you you went from from a normal listening environment with wall reinforcement to a near field set up?

If so, the situations are bound to sound totally different, and you cannot expect similar results. Moreover, only some speakers sound good near field pulled into the room. You have to decide how you are going to listen and pick your speakers accordingly.

Changing absolute phase, as suggested may help to a certain extent, as your amplifier setup may differ in polarity to the dealers. But you will always find that a certain percentage of your music collection sounds better the other way round anyway. Having a phase reversal switch can come in handy.

Phase and polarity are not the same thing! Polarity is a function of positive and negative wiring, while phase is a function of time.

If they were from a store sale, call the store. Or return them.

If it was a private sale, then offer the fellow, or woman, a dinner (or something) to help you set them up.
(If they did it once, then there is proof that it worked for them.)

Unfortunate.  The same thing happened to me several times.  I have said many times that in a domestic environment with limited placement options, it is a total crapshoot how speakers would work.  In my own home, a tiny pair of Harbeth P3s had better bass response than the much larger Model 30s.  Totem Forests and Hawks sounded horrible, but the Model 1s were very good.  Outside of finding a better placement, I don't think there's anything you can do.  See if the seller would consider taking them back with maybe a sweetener of a couple hundred for his trouble.  

It has nothing to do with the binding posts or any defect in the speaker. It is the interaction of the speaker in your room. If they sounded excellent somewhere else than you also can make them sound excellent. Moving them back just a foot can dramatically change the bass response but forget about getting much under 80 Hz with a 8" driver unless you sit a meter away from the speaker. Many speakers have boosted mid bass to make up for no low bass. A speaker that is flat might sound bass light. The best way to deal with this problem is with a calibrated USB microphone and a computer. Knowing is always better than guessing. This is true of any system. Finally, adding subwoofers with digital bass management is an incredible way of making little stand speakers sound like big Wilson's

Ten feet from the front wall is way too far! No wonder they appear to lack bass! Try one or two feet instead!

@jasonbourne52 

I’ve had the same near field set up for 2 years, utilizing the front wall is not an option due to the layout of my apartment. As I previously stated I’ve never encountered this situation before, I’ve had smaller speakers kick ass in this setup. My ProAc Response D2’s are unbelievable. I’ll move them around today and see what I can get outta them.

...utilizing the front wall is not an option due to the layout of my apartment... 

ARC D400MKII amp, Levinson 380s Pre

You need to change at least two of these things, otherwise you'll have no luck. 

@chayro 

As I’m typing this I’m listening to some Beth Hart on my ProAcs. It’s laughable how much better they sound and they are 1/2 the size, weight and less efficient than the Ref 3A’s. Something tells me it’s gonna be a long day trying to find a happy place for these 3A’s 

@russ69 why would the amp & pre be an issue if I’ve had nothing but great results with every set of speakers up till this point?

@russ69 why would the amp & pre be an issue if I’ve had nothing but great results with every set of speakers up till this point?

Mostly because they are not working with your new set-up and are known to be a very flat and neutral type sound. Something a little "livelier" might work better. 

Nice speaker for sure but too bad the 'distance from the wall' thing didn't set in. I don't think any electronics will solve it, nor will 7 feet out from the wall, still too far for any bass reinforcement is my guess.

Along with others, if you're going to keep and enjoy those, I'd add a good subwoofer or two (or four inexp. ones). I don't see another, as viable, solution. Good luck with figuring it out; the speakers aren't at fault. Hope you enjoy them!

OP - Sorry to hear about your sound issue but seems like you just want to argue with the suggestions people have given. oldhvy's suggestion of putting them on the floor will definitely help bass a lot. Also moving them back or in a corner. Most of these guys have very good suggestions, with the exception of yogiboy. Yogiboy, no disrespect but HUH? If all else fails, sell them. Good luck!

@russ69

I’m happy with the ARC/Levinson, I’ll most likely just have to wave the white flag and sell the A3’s if I can’t get them to work their magic in my room. If they were an end-game speaker i’d definitely go down the path of upgrading components. These were intended to be used for late night listening. My thought process was that a speaker with all the attributes of the 3A (higher efficiency, larger drivers, very dynamic) would be better suited for lower volume listening sessions. I didn’t weigh too heavily on my set up conditions because of the success I’ve had with lesser speakers. Duh-oh! I still have faith…we’ll see!

@fiesta75 

no, no not arguing, I’m very appreciative of the support and it identified the problem…Thank you all. Placing them closer to the wall is not doable. I’ll just have to try and work around it. 

I liked the sound of the ProAc DB2 and DB3s I've heard at a dealership.  They  do a very good job of faking their bass response-elevated upper bass to make the speaker sound fuller and rich in bass.  If that is the case, I don't know what you can do to replicate this effect with speakers that are balanced differently.  I have not worked much with equalization, but that might be the trick.

I can only suggest a lot of experimentation with the location of the speaker and location of your listening chair.  Moving toward boundaries (walls) might help, as would any movement that takes the speaker out of a cancellation node.

It might well be the case of the wrong speaker for your particular setup, which means it is not a fault of the speaker, but just bad luck for you since you heard them work well in a different setting. I am not a fan of subwoofers, but that might be an option in your case, particularly ones that offer enough equalization choices. I doubt that any changes to electronics would effect enough of a change in basic tonal balance such that it makes sense going down that rabbit hole.

@musicaddict 

I have a Rel T9x in my rig. I’m holding off on it while I try to get these bad boys to work on their own.

Those are not big speakers. How big is your room compared to room you heard them in.

You absolutely need to hookup the REL. Then they might just blow your mind!

op

seems like you have gotten ample advice, much of it consistent and reinforcing

let us know how it sorts out and whether you get those sweet ref 3a singing right...

Of course the sub will give you bass, but that’s not a substitute for the speakers sounding close to their full potential on their own. I’m with the op in trying to get them optimized without the sub. Just in a personal note, I’ve never been able to get speakers that didn’t work in my room right off the bat to sound great later. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and bail. It’s not fun when that happens

IF the issue is bass, then closer to walls and corners will help.

The dilemma of course is always that closer to walls and/or corners will also likely have a negative effect on soundstage and imaging, especially soundstage depth. If that can’t be worked out to satisfaction then subs are the solution.

Also have not researched these speakers and amp specifically, but an impedance mismatch from amp to speakers can also play into otherwise good sounding speakers not sounding good, especially smaller more bass extended ones. I’d check that out as well. My recollection is ref3m are not as efficient always as specs may indicate and more importantly they may not be an easy load to drive which is typically the case with smaller speakers designed for maximum bass extension.

Also always avoid early reflections for best soundstage and imaging.

That should cover it.

Springs, everything on springs…

ignore that

room / boundaries are in this case are your friends, you can and should try Daves baffle extension truck on the stands… heavy cardboard will do as an experiment 

Trick not truck

If you can’t get them closer than 7’ from the front wall your only option is to add your sub, and preferably two.  It’ll probably also help a lot with your low-level listening.  Best of luck. 

@mapman 

These are the biggest monitors I’ve had in my rig (H15.7 x W12 x D13) and they have to be close to 40lbs each. My listening area is 15x12 (but the front wall actually recesses to 17ft.) The room I demo them in was a dedicated room substantially larger. As I’m typing this I have them pushed back about 3ft from where they started and put about 1” of toe-in. HuGe frickin soundstage but still thin on the bass. Still more tweaking to do! I found the specs online:

8 ohm / 44-22000hz / 92db / dome beryllium 26mm tweeter /  8” hyper-exponential graphite membrane woofer. 

Hmm also worth checking polarity from amp to speakers. Perhaps some break in time required as well. Always check for bad connections when things seem way off.  I'd run a sound meter check to see what's actually happening at different frequencies.  decibel app on an iphone would do.

"For optimum bass performance, this unit must be used on our 40kg spiked sand-filled stands," which place them at an optimized height of 26". The factory stands will set you back a Royal $790, but Goldstein has sourced a cost-effective replacement from Sound Anchors, retailing for $400. A 6mm steel mounting plate is bolted to the bottom of each speaker, and this assemblage is set atop the stands, compressing a supplied "squishy, Sorbothane-type material," as described by Goldstein.

Saw that in Stereophile. I had a pair of Response D2's and thought they were great. Can you put them near the walls just for a short time to see what they do even if you don't leave them there? How are the mids and highs? 

Update: I sent an email to the manufacturer and he graciously responded with a copy of their setup instructions. I’m still tweaking the positioning but boom! Game changer. I was waaayy off on positioning. The 3A’s are still a little light in the bass or perhaps my ProAcs just do low end better? definitely different presentations between these two. Bigger soundstage & very detailed without being offensive. Very nice, although I don’t think these are going to give me what I was looking for at low volume. I’ll do more tweaking then I can’t wait to hear what they do when I kick on the REL.

@bjesien I have them on sand filled steel monolith stands spiked into my carpet…suckers are HEAVY and I use Herbies square dots between the plates and speakers.

So you spiked the stands to the floor but isolate them from the speaker or coupled them to the speaker too. Your going to run a REL sub (coupled to the floor) with floor spiked speaker stands and coupled monitors?

OK!!

I’ll step aside on that one. Have fun.. We think WAY different..

Regards

@oldhvymec

I don’t have a dedicated listening room. I’m in a studio apartment and my listening area is basically my living area / kitchen so I have to keep things aesthetically pleasing and utilitarian as opposed to looking like a hi-fi shop. That’s just not my style. That being said, My floor is concrete and granite with a carpet covering the listening area. Spikes are purely for keeping the stands secured as I heard no difference between the spikes and the footers. I prefer Herbies fat dots under the speakers as they are nicer don’t ruin the finish of the speakers like blue-tac or sorbothane. As hard as I’ve tried, I can’t detect the micro nuances of coupling material, outlet covers, ethernet switches and cable lifters although I’ve kept a few tweaks that I thought made sense and were well made (eg: damping plates).

Also, The REL is raised off the floor on a 1.5in granite slab. I had ridiculous room boom with the sub on the floor and putting it on the slab and taking it out of the corner solved the problem perfectly.

Good to hear you did decouple. The way they are made you did the best thing you could to actually make a music sub. REL is old tech with great paint. I've fixed quite a few VMPS and REL subs for music.. Boom Boom is easy. Audiophile is a little tougher.. I secure a butt plate and add, springs, pods or air ride. I've used all with great success. Air bags decouple the most complete, they can be a PITA if not thought out.. I used a 10 and 15" bicycle tire tube under 2 400lb columns. worked perfect for 15 years.. You could tell when they needed air. Once a year two pumps each. 

Nobound with ear plugs stuffed in the springs does ok.... :-) Get the black ones, they don't stand out like a sore thumb..

I'm only in to ugly women, my gear has to look really good. Easier maintenance for both to tell the truth. :-)

Regards

@oldhvymec 

Retiring soon brother and leaving this God forsaken state. a dedicated listening room is in my plans and down the audiophile rabbit hole I will go. Might even do the ugly chick thing too…Haha! 

Rooms are the worst offenders in audio systems.  Cheap to fix, but most people don't want to bother.

I did not read everyone's comments but the one where you are asking why would the amp/preamp be an issue.  They don't always match that is why.  Kind of like a recent speaker a manufacturer sent to us.  We build components but the speakers we received were not tube friendly at all.  So we had to change things around to get them to perform the way they were supposed to.  Some speakers prefer some feedback and some don't that is just the way things go.

Happy Listening.

I was curious, so I tried to find some feedback from other owners and this is some of what I found.

"I have decided to sell my Ref 3A Royal Virtuosos as I don't think they quite match my room positioning and I'm not hearing the best from them."

"I have recently obtained a used pair of Royal Virtuosos (full Corian cabinet) with very heavy Sound Anchors stands. The problem is that there is no bass. Drums and acoustic bass are almost completely missing and there is almost nothing below 100 Hz. I have tried both my Welbone 300B amp and a Linn solid state amp, it makes no difference. My source is a new Denon DVD player. The tone in the midrange and treble seems good and the imaging is amazing."

"Hi, A friend of mine had this problem with a pair of the Reference3A L'integra and we went nuts trying to fix it. We finally discovered that the speakers were wired out of phase internally, so we just switched the speaker cables black to red and red to black on only one speaker and that solved the problem! Hope it's something as simple as this."     

It's not much, but it does confirm your experiences somewhat.

There was also one comment about the speakers, saying they weren't sold through dealers, but were sold by "owners". Which I found odd.

@tony1954 

Thanks for this. That pretty much does sum it up. I repositioned the 3A’s as closely to the manufacturers guidelines and then played with micro adjustments, I’m pretty sure I have them as good as I’m gonna get with what I have. These speakers are definitely light in the bass, I was playing some bass demo tracks and it sounds like the best I’m getting is in the 60’s Hz. Meanwhile this speaker looks like it could shake the fillings in your teeth loose.

Try reversing polarity to one speaker just to see what happens. 

"Meanwhile this speaker looks like it could shake the fillings in your teeth loose."

Looks can be deceiving, whether it is speakers or people.

@mapman whats the worst that could happen if I mess with that?

@tony1954 Listening to Johann Johansson “Orphee”, the detail and depth/height of soundstage and is amazing. This is the best mids & upper end I’ve ever heard in my room. I need to find a speaker that can do all this and have low end punch. I’m about to flick on the Sub and see what it brings.

Why would you demo a new speaker in a setup that you can’t match? If you can’t move the speakers closer to the wall, you should have demoed the speakers the same distance from the back wall as your room dictates.

Also, an amp can have a big impact on how the speaker performs. I’ve taken my amp to demo a set of speakers before to make sure the amp I had would drive the woofers to my liking.

Just jumping in this discussion. For the last 8 years I have used speakers with very decent bass, the Ascend Acoustic Sierra towers and now the PBN MONTANA XPS towers. Both can get the job done but the dual subs I have puts them in a totally different category for bass. I have no idea why many audiophiles oppose the use of subs, but if placed and dialed in correctly, they will completely disappear and allow your speakers to shine. Just my experience.