Immersive Audio and How to Achieve It
100% of music listeners prefer live music to recorded playback, why? A live performance "immerses" you and frees you up to move around the room, the dance floor and still be immersed. The goal posts have moved away from two speakers to an array of speakers all around as well as above you to reproduce the illusion of a LIVE performance. Why, in 2023, would anyone voluntarily use only two speakers to recreate this illusion of a live performance in a large room?
Even the artists themselves are using immersive audio in concert to WOW their audience, why not do it at home:
https://www.mixonline.com/live-sound/venues/on-the-cover-las-vegas-takes-immersive-live-part-1
Your statement reveals you have very limited experience with live music performances. You might be surprised to learn that many of the sonically best music venues have no dance floor at all. |
You underestimate physical acoustic... I used a grid of Helmmoltz tuned resonators in my past room... And for DSP the BACCH filters are the top of the acoustic experience right now ... And my goal is not recreating "a live event"... My goal is to retrieve the original set of acoustic trade-off used by the recording engineers TRANSLATED in my acoustic room or with my headphone ( but most headphone are badly designed for this ) ...
Immersiveness in acoustic is related to the basic concept of "listener envelopment" which is related to the ratio between the sound sources location and volume and the listener real and virtual position ...
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My goal is to retrieve the original set of acoustic trade-off used by the recording engineers in my acoustic room or with my headphone... That is how I started my acoustic journey, I e-mailed the Dubstage studio and asked how could I recreate the acoustic space of a mixstage in my media room. Owner Marti Humphrey asked for photos, sent his reply and cced Wilfreid Van Balien of Galaxy Studios who chimed in. With a little helpful coaching from Anthony Grimani who also gave me feedback the end result was exactly the type of acoustic I hoped to achieve for my room and budget.
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After all of the years and dedication to two channel why are you STILL searching for an end game speaker you can afford? Why haven’t you hit this goal years (or decades) ago? I was fortunate to have stumbled across the Sunfire Theater Grand 3 processor which incorporated what Bob Carver called "side axis" or wide channels. They solved the soundstage issue for me in 2002 and I never looked back, still using wide channels today. The only issue I have with Dolby's layout below is the MLP is too far back, I prefer equidistant between front and back walls:
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You can address the acoustics of your dance floor all you like, and that's fine by me. But as I noted, many of the sonically best music venues have no dance floor at all. You might want to visit a few if you want to understand acoustics and "immersive" sound. |
An acoustically well treated room + an immersive audio setup like in the dolby layout above + an itunes or Tidal subscription= "It sounds like you are in the studio with Miles and the band" At :20 in the video from the remixing session of Miles Davis Kind of Blue live at Capitol Studios: 1:10 in the video: If you really love music, this is the way you have to listen to music. Why in the world would you argue with that? |
Did you mean to say "100% of people who define immersiveness solely in terms of dancing prefer to dance to live rather than recorded music"? Are we talking drunk or sober? Personally I don't trust any assertion that begins with "100% of ____ (fill in the blank)".
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"A stupid post that assumes what everyone likes and wants. Nonsense."
Did you mean to say "100% of people who define immersiveness solely in terms of dancing prefer to dance to live rather than recorded music"? Are we talking drunk or sober? I am saying that everyone prefers a live performance over a recording of a live performance, period. Research Shows an increased entrained physiological response to music of different speeds and moods when the listener is present with the performer, compared to listening to a recording of the same performance. Shoda, H., Adachi, M., & Umeda, T. (2016). How Live Performance Moves the Human Heart. PLoS ONE, 11(4), e0154322. http://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0154322
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Honestly, I don’t understand much about anything other than a two speaker traditional stereo setup, other than adding a subwoofer or two, mainly because I never pursued it. Multi-channel, multi-speaker systems were an "effect" in my view, though I’m sure they’ve evolved nicely over the years, but just isn’t something I’ve had much interest in pursuing. For me one of the most important considerations in my audio system is clarity (or transparency if you prefer). Most of the other audio superlatives fall into place once excellent clarity is achieved, and from my perspective, it’s a key aspect in allowing my system to trick my mind into taking me where I need to go with the music. It’s a very personal thing for all of us, but that’s generally one of the primary goals and the reason we do this at all. In my view, the act of processing or adding something to the signal to create something in the signal is counterintuitive to the purist root of achieving clarity. The signal is already in the recording and is there to preserve with as little addition or subtraction to the recording as possible. All three of my sons have pretty decent more modern music/HT systems with DSP and other stuff I don’t understand, yet all them sit there with jaws dropped at the clarity and spatial effects I get from a two speaker system. Their systems give them sounds from all kinds of directions, but it lacks the transparency and realism my antiquated system and philosophy seem to achieve. If there are other ways that someone can achieve their audio nirvana, I’m heavily in favor of. What we need to achieve it, and how we get there is unique for each of us. so whatever it takes for others is A-OK with me. |
"Immersive" in acoustic refer to spatial relation between the listener and the translation of the recording in his room acoustic...Stereo system can do it at certain precise acoustic conditions which are very complex... I experienced them at the end with a one year experiments 7 days on 7... We can realize "immersiveness" with an acoustic room and a stereo system , not a living room generally... The physiological reaction measured in live concert is related not so much to the spatial soundfield perception but by the presence of living musicians whom with we connected ...You will measure the same in a bad acoustic spot of a concert hall... I prefer to listen alone in optimal acoustic conditions... The last concert i goes too was horrible because of the amplified sound in a super bad room... And i loved the musician... My physiological reactuion was : why did i came instead of buying his album ? 😊
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Thank you for your kind words about my system. I think we would disagree on virtually every aspect of your assertion. Perhaps, you are just trying to be controversial. For many years I have preferred listening to my system for any amplified music. Over the decades I have ended up at a couple rock concerts a year, as part of my job. I would typically walk… or run out after the first tune with my hands over my ears. Napkins stuffed in my ears would occationally allow me to stay for two. After ten years with season tickets to the Oregon symphony my system became so close as to be virtually indistinguishable. Then the the Oregon Symphony “upgraded” their hall with cutting edge DSP processing and were unable to resist using it during all acoustic symphony orchestra concerts… essentially destroying the wonderful acoustic sound. So, now my system sounds better. It is completely immursive.
Your idea of using multi speakers and Atmos… well, it is one of those things that sounds great on paper but isn’t remotely close to working in the real world. Other folks can point out the plethora of problems with the idea. But just from the point of view of cost. High quality sound requires top quality components. So scale up a really high quality system to have 7 or 12 or more speakers / amps and you just increased you system cost by ten times. The list goes on.
I have a home theater system with a flagship surround processor, B&W 805 speakers and two B&W 800 subwoofers. It sounds great… but not remotely in the same league as my audio system.
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Your idea of using multi speakers and Atmos… well, it is one of those things that sounds great on paper but isn’t remotely close to working in the real world. Santana, Adele, Aerosmith and many others are ALL incorporating Atmos in the "real world" of their shows: https://www.mixonline.com/live-sound/venues/on-the-cover-las-vegas-takes-immersive-live-part-1 High quality sound requires top quality components. I can get Marantz, JBL, or Anthem SOA processors for less than $8K, can you say that about a SOA two channel preamp? High quality doesn’t have to be exorbitant. So scale up a really high quality system to have 7 or 12 or more speakers / amps and you just increased you system cost by ten times. This is debatable, I don’t think we could reach a conclusive answer. I have a home theater system with a flagship surround processor, B&W 805 speakers and two B&W 800 subwoofers. It sounds great… but not remotely in the same league as my audio system. Fair enough, I have a two channel audio system with a flagship (or Signature as Sony calls it) two channel preamp with a pair of Paradigm Studio Reference Active 40 speakers, all drivers custom built in Paradigm’s factory biamped internally by class A/B Anthem amps hand selected by the designer with a matched active crossover. It sounds great (and measures great, see my profile)...but not remotely in the same league as my 9.3.8 home theater.
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As for my preferences in ’23: Pat Metheny Live A wash. I reject the premise over by here. Pink Floyd started performing live surround in 1967 It’s OK to love Atmos. You can keep it. Live OR canned it's about the performances to me. |
David Gilmour of Pink Floyd does Atmos: Roger Waters of Pink Floyd does Atmos: "Quite simple the best sounding concert film we ever heard" Shot of Abbey Road studio layout when they were remixing Pink Floyd in immersive audio (I use the same layout including using active speakers in the media room except my subs are not on the ceiling LOL):
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OK @stuartk , I respect your preferences. Here is a nice perspective from Giles martin on immersive audio. He says when his father mixed the Beatles records in the studio he was attempting to paint the walls with music. His description is now with atmos, they are actually bringing those walls to life. He left out the other part but if you need at least 9 speakers to bring the walls to life what are the walls like with only two speakers, well I could say flat, or less than alive (about :25 mark): |
I agree with cleed’s response above. I don’t necessarily prefer a live performance, especially if the sound system sucks or I have a bad seat. If the sound system is monophonic, I’d rather hear a good stereo recording of that performance. With a good stereo recording with natural ambience, my system can reproduce three dimensions of the performance, and that’s "immersive" enough for a lot of music. However, I do enjoy having sounds come from various directions, whether it’s through a multichannel system or creative use of out-of-phase sounds, like Eddie Kramer employed on Electric Ladyland. Also, getting immersed in music may depend as much on the listener’s state of mind as it does on the gear. |
First, love the system you posted and especially that rack of LP’s. I agree I would rather hear a great recording of a live performance than be stuck at one that sucks (crowd noise, bad seats, too loud, etc). I think your speakers are very capable of providing an immersive bubble with a good recording. You might like the atmos mix of this live hendrix recording. In my room its like being there. Speaking of Eddie Kramer see: The historic playback session was accompanied by a discussion with producers Janie Hendrix, Eddie Kramer and John McDermott, moderated by journalist and music critic Randy Lewis. Kramer, who engineered all major Jimi Hendrix releases, was responsible for the album’s stereo mix. During the discussion, Janie Hendrix, sister of music legend Jimi Hendrix, described the timing of the live album as the perfect moment in which “technology finally caught up to Jimi.” When asked by Lewis whether Jimi Hendrix was aware of the potential of the live recording of the Forum show all three producers confirmed he listened to it but the plan for a live album never came, that is until now. |
Related (somewhat) to this post- does anyone have advice as to how to decode my Vizio output via its HDMI into high quality 2 channel audio I can listen to through my main audio system? I have a PS Audio Directstream Junior DAC with many differant input options but my understanding is you need some sort of device to digitally merge the multi channel output in the HDMI to a digital two channel signal for the DAC? McIntosh provides this exact functionality on one of its pre amps currently; I'm looking for some "black box" to do it so I can either run the digitally "merged" two channel signal into my DAC and then into my Audio Research LS28 or- take the merged analog two channel signal from the black box and run it into a line level input in my pre amp.
Thanks ! |
Related (somewhat) to this post- does anyone have advice as to how to decode my Vizio output via its HDMI into high quality 2 channel audio I can listen to through my main audio system? Yes, you can get an "audio extractor" to accomplish this, if you want high quality check this out, it has an optical output for your dac or a multichannel output for a receiver with a multichannel input: https://www.essenceelectrostatic.com/product/evolve-ii-4k-hdmi-v2-0b-multi-channel-dac/ or: https://www.essenceelectrostatic.com/product/hdacc-ii-4k-hdmi-dac/
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I think you are missing a few things to get your home system to be more immersive. when you go to a concert, you have A LOT of amps powering A LOT of speakers. Most of the time they are tri amped and you can feel the subwoofers from a distance. This is one of the most astute observations I have seen on the topic AND you are of course 100% spot on. How in the hell do you get enough power into 9 bed channels, 8 height channels, and 3 subwoofers to light this puppy up and not need an entire room to house the amps, and if you wanted to biamp? Double that rack, double the amp channels, and add a few more miles of speaker cables? Not practical. First of all, I don’t think it is necessary to get a really good immersive experience, many receivers can push the needle IF you pay attention to the acoustics and treat your room properly. Acoustics is 80% of the immersive experience. I decided to load my room with enough power to launch a rocket. That’s why I went with ACTIVE speakers that are internally biamped with 125 watts for the woofer and 50 watts for the tweeter (even my center channel). See the specs here: http://www.cain.cainslair.com/Paradigm%20Reference%20Active%20Series%20Specifications.htm BTW, check out the pics of my virtual system and note I mounted one of my subs on the back wall closer to the ceiling than the floor, IMMERSIVE bass. This setup was recommended by Earl Geddes, try and use 3 subs with at least one off the floor. You get a great experience when you couple those internal monoblocks to the drivers with an active crossover too. |
You can get this incredible 13 speaker, 7.2.4 active setup from Focal for about the same price as two of their more luxurious passive tower speakers (where you provide the amps). All you need are stands and balanced cables, save your scratch from buying amps and speaker cables and put it toward a processor and room treatments. Check out the back of speakers too, plate amps give you incredible controls to match the speaker to the room: |
@kota1 A. I have 50 ch of analog processing and that is NOT an analog immersive setup. B. There is no contest between stereo and atmos/spatial, they are parallel deliverables, so please leave me out of your agenda :) My stereo speakers are Evolution Acoustics MM3 w Exact filters, Crane Song Avocet monitor controller, Bricasti M1 SE DA, Allnic Audio A-6000 monos. I am all about stereo. Those things are integrated into a 7.1.4 room with more Evolution Acoustics Micro Ones, more M1SE and Parasound A51 x 2. I would not do 7.1.4 without Trinnov. |
I can appreciate what you’re driving at: the sensation of sound from everywhere is enticing. However, I think you’ve mistaken the intent of such systems. Surround isn’t necessarily to immerse or envelope, or engulf a listener. The original, (and I believe still), intent was to recreate the sounds projected from a scene consisting of elements that are placed in areas requiring those sound signatures (AKA, a helicopter fly-over, or a fast-approaching car coming up from the rear. But as for music, the band, orchestra, fiddle player, torch singer, is IN FRONT of you. Roger Waters may love hearing his guitar reverberate around the room, but that is a sound effect that doesn’t require Atmos, just walls and ceilings in a good hall, or room. Finally, I feel “immersed” in music that is well-produced, and frankly, which engages me. All the sonic tricks in the book, including floating drum kits and saxophones on the ceiling, can’t make me like bad music. I have a 7.2 SOTA system for films and TV. But my jewel is my (near) SOTA 2.2 stereo music system. I’ll leave it at that. |
My second system is a traditional 5.1 surround sound. It wouldn’t meet the criteria for immersive by today’s standards, I guess. I would like to experiment with a true Atmos setup. However I have a drop ceiling and I just can’t see using ceiling speakers at this relatively low height, and I would need a new processor or AVR. And I might sell the house in a couple of years as we downsize, and I just can’t see investing in a system that may have a short lifespan. However I root those of you who do so on. I also disagree with the premise in the OPs first paragraph. I choose my seats at the Chicago Symphony with care and could care less about moving around and dancing |
Agree. The live/original music is always better than the reproduced audio music.
The immersive sound is a surround sound term and means you are in the action. The immersive sound is more effect than the quality of the sound. The live music or the original music is not always immersive. The purpose of hi-end audio is being able to faithfully reproduce the original music. The hi-end audio aims for more realistic reproduced sound than un-real wrapping around sound. The live music or the original music is not always immersive. The quality of the sound is more important in hi-end audio.
Yes. Everyone prefers a live performance (real live music) over the reproduced audio music. The original music is always cleanest, smoothest, and the most musical. However, we can't be in live performance always. So, we listen recordings (reproduction audio). Alex/Wavetouch |
I agree you can have good or bad recordings in immersive audio. The processor or receiver has controls that allow you to select two channel, or upmix to any of several selections (Dolby Surround, DTS Neural or Neo-X, Audyssey DSX, Auro-3D, etc). You can tailor the song to your room. As for the band being in front of you the engineers refer to this as the artists intent and try and reproduce it. There are many artists that discuss this on Dolby’s channel like:
BTW, your system looks amazing, why the bare walls though? Room treatments?
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I would like to experiment with a true Atmos setup. However I have a drop ceiling There are advantages to using front and rear height channels, mounted high on the wall, see the pic of my system or the pic above of abbey road studios. They are easy to wall mount but I chose tall stands because active speakers are heavy. See: https://www.svsound.com/products/prime-elevation And I might sell the house in a couple of years as we downsize Those prime elevation speakers are wall mounted, no drilling holes in the ceiling. I recommend you look at the Onkyo RZ50 receiver, I use Onkyo in the mancave (which also has a drop ceiling, I wall mounted the height channels)
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Great system, are those auralex panels? I had great results with auralex. The quality of the sound is more important in hi-end audio. I agree, this doesn't need to be an either/or binary decision. With an immersive system you can use as many speakers as you want, from 2 to 22, depending on the song and the recording to get the quality you want. Atmos is backward compatible, object oriented audio. Its not channel based, but will still play back on two speakers. The vast majority of the tracks I play are mixed in stereo and I upmix them. |
