More Power or use subwoofer to boost bass for music

Thanks Duke 

Or, as my experience and measurements have shown, you treat the room with some decent bass traps and wall coverings to ensure the treble/bass balance is correct but no.... that's too much ....???

@erik_squires I used to think that way too. Then I encountered the Swarm, and in looking into the theory behind it, realized that its the elegant approach to a vexing problem- reliably getting the bass right in nearly any room.


Duke didn't invent the idea- and he would be the first to tell you usually, but in this case I beat him to the punch. It comes from a guy pretty well known in audio engineering circles; Dr. Floyd Toole.


So this isn't a cult thing- its just that its an idea whose time has come, and all that's happening here is you've not read up on it. So I suggest you read or look at some of Dr. Toole's talks on YouTube. Here's a good place to start:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM
Now this link doesn't say anything about a DBA, but it does very successfully show how the bass is so important in the way a speaker presents itself. Take the time to play the whole thing (the intro is done at about 4 minutes).


In a nutshell, you put Dr. Toole down at your own peril. He's one of the top engineers in his field. So- when someone is complaining about bass, no, you don't treat a room with traps because it literally doesn't work- although prior to running a DBA you might think it does. Its not a cult, its science. Don't be that guy who contributes to the death of science- look at how Dr. Toole developed this.

Very much interesting and excellent suggestions presented here.  My only contribution to the discussion addresses what I believe to be missing.  That is, in my opinion, the OP has never actually measured whether he/she actually has a bass loss problem.  The OP discussed how the bass sounded different in the store (real surprise here) than in the home.

The first thing I would do in this case is to actually measure the frequency response of the system from the listening position.  Using free Ipad/ipod software such as Audiotools, and a test cd such as Stereophiles test cds, you can farily accurately measure where the frequency response is at the listening position.  Do that first.  See where the peaks and valleys actually are in your system.

You actually may not have a problem at all.  My experience is that yes, the room quite often negatively affects the sound.  But, you have to measure it first to know if you have a problem and where it is.

Then, work of fixing it.  Many systems actually boost bass to get a physical response from people.  "Wow, that bass sounds great".  However, that bass response you hear often isn't accurate.  I've heard systems with wayyyyy too much bass.  

Anyway, not trying to argue with anyone here, but I would measure first, then determine if I actually have a problem and then find ways of fixing it.  It may be room treatment as opposed to bigger more powerful amps or multiple subwoofers.

just a thought.

enjoy and stay safe

Clearthink, if you took the time to read and understand my posts (if you have the requisite knowledge), you will note that I was pointing out that simply saying the amp does not double from 8 to 4 ohms, provides no real guidance on whether it can supply adequate bass to a load that bottoms out at 3-3.2 ohms, and that all we know is the distortion is 1% at 4ohms at a given wattage (what georgehifi posted) which means we know how it behaves at some level under those conditions and absent the output impedance / damping factor, (not to mention distortion w.r.t. frequency), the conclusion he made is simply not possible.

As a matter of fact, if a link to the full range of tests was provided, as in here: https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1373:bhk-labs...
then one could see that the limitation is very low until the output hits a hard limit at which time the distortion rapidly increases. One can surmise from the shape of the graph as it hits the limit that it is primarily voltage limited. The damping factor is also very high at 8 ohms, >500 throughout the bass region, indicating no output impedance issues through the speaker impedance range. Further, the rise in distortion across the frequency range when the power is increased from 150 to 200 watts coupled with the lower distortion at 4 ohms (SMPTE) again, communicates it is primarily running into a voltage limit. The decrease in distortion from 8 to 4 ohms, also indicates that it is unlikely to have issues with the odd dip to 3-3.2 ohms. Furthermore, that 422 watts (albeit at 10% THD), is all channels driven, or about 1260 watts total.

Since you have exceptional knowledge, perhaps you can point out exactly where the errors are in my analysis, using the best information I had at my fingertips.

xcool, based on the SoundStageNetwork test, unless you are running your amplifier into clipping or there is something wrong with it, it is highly unlikely to be causing your bass issue.

tgrisham:
”Multiple subs are not a cult but are scientifically proven to even out bass nodes but are they really necessary?  Where do you want to spend your limited funds?  Here is their conclusion:” Four subwoofers are enough to get the best results of any configuration tried. Two subwoofers is very nearly as good and has very good low frequency support as well.”

     I think tgrisham has it about right and, if xcool would read my previous post from 4-21-20, he will discover I was stating the same thing that Harman had concluded:
” Four subwoofers are enough to get the best results of any configuration tried. Two subwoofers is very nearly as good and has very good low frequency support as well.”

     I would first like all readers of this thread to understand that I have always adamantly refused to be a member of any club or Cult that would accept me as a member.   After all, I believe maintaining some semblance of minimum member standards is important and I prefer the sharing of knowledge and experiences between independent and honest individuals based on their personal knowledge and experience.  Isn’t this basically the purpose of this site?       My sole intent for commenting on the virtues of the 4-sub DBA concept so annoyingly often has been to spread the word about an excellent bass solution concept that I researched extensively,,finally purchased and was stunned by how extremely well it performed in my room and system.       I learned of the distributed bass array concept on another internet site, had been experimenting for years with single and dual subs trying to incorporate powerful, accurate, detailed, effortless, dynamicand realistic bass which I knew my various models of Magnepan main speakers notoriously lacked.       I realized that many Magnepan fans claim the bass is sufficient, however, I believe the accurate and realistic reproduction of the bottom two octaves is the main distinguishing trait betweeN hearing and feeling music played live at a small venue with good acoustics and a recording of the exact same musical performance played back on a home audio system in a domestic sized room.       I’m still astounded by the fact that, in over 15 years of reading and participating in thousands of threads here on a boatload of 2-ch music and HT audio reproduction subjects on a giga-plenty number of threads, I.never read a single mention of, or reference to, the DBA system concept.  Maybe it was mentioned and I missed it but I would think something this effective would be mentioned, or at least referred to, on a regular basis.
     Anyways, I want to make it perfectly clear that I definitely know high quality bass performance can be attained, at a single designated listening position,  utilizing both 1 or 2 properly positioned subs.  I know this not only from my own knowledge and experience but also from the shared knowledge and experienced numerous fellow Audiogon members.  For the benefit of newbies and any others searching for good in-room bass performance, here are some lessons I’ve learned over many years of researching, learning from others and experimenting in the same search:

1. In most rooms, achieving good bass performance is more difficult than achieving good midrange, treble and imaging performance, mainly due to their very different sound wave length and propagation patterns.

2. With speakers having separate bass,midrange and treble drivers in a single cabinet, it’s highly unlikely that the optimum room location for bass performance is so close in proximity to the optimum room location for midrange, treble and imaging Performance.  Bass performance is significantly improved with the drivers launching bass sound waves into the room can be independently optimally positioned.

3.  Virtually all humans are unable to localize sounds, perceive exactly where the sounds are originating from, that have sound wave frequencies below about 80 Hz.  Virtually all humans are increasingly adept at localizing sounds as their sound wave frequencies rise above about 80 Hz, this ability continues to be reliable up to the generally accepted high frequency human audible sound wave frequency limit of about 20,000 Hz, with this upper limit often being reduced by the aging process.

4.  Virtually all commercially available audio recordings on all formats, even the audio content on DVD and Blu-ray A/V discs, have all recorded bass below about 100 Hz mixed as mono.  Recording engineers mainly do this because they’ve known about point #3 above for at least the past 70 years.      They also do this because very deep recorded bass tones on LPs can cause the stylus to be forced out of the groove and many mass consumer grade speakers such as sound bars, mass produced speakers and TV speakers cannot handle very deep bass frequencies without seriously distorting or even being physically damaged.     Current recording technology is capable of recording bass frequencies below 100 

5.  Because of the reality of points #3 and #4 above, it’s fairly obvious that creating and configuring a home audio system capable of reproducing bass frequencies in true stereo makes little sense.  The first dilemma is that listeners, assuming they’re all humans, will be unable to localize and perceive discrete left and right bass channels.     The listeners will perceive all the discrete left and right channel bass as summed mono bass and this, by definition, prevents even the existence of the required discrete left and right channel components of a true stereo image from becoming a reality, never mind the subsequent perceived 3D stereo illusion like our brains regularly create with discrete left and right channels on sound wave frequencies above about 80 Hz.
     There is no stereo imaging below about 80 Hz, it’s not even a theoretical thing due to physics and human perceptual limitations.  The second dilemma is that, even if a human mutant was capable of localizing bass sounds with frequencies below 80 Hz and built an audio system with appropriately positioned left and right channel subs in preparation, there’s virtually no current commercially available recordings on any audio or HT format for our superhuman mutant to play on his hot-riddled audio system.
     That’s quite a ‘chicken and egg’ sequencing dilemma, right? But all hope is not  lost just yet, grasshoppers, There is one last lesson I learned along my audio journey that I sometimes like to call The Saving Grace, and most other times I just call it point#6.

6.  While it’s definitely true that we can’t localize bass sounds that have sound wave frequencies below about 80 Hz, anyone who has one or more subs in their room and systems should be able to attest with absolute certainty that they are perceiving the sound in true stereo from the deepest bass notes to the highest frequency treble notes and every and all the various frequency notes in between.  This holds true whether you understand or even believe points #3-5 above or not.
     How is this even possible with all the truthful information I mentioned in points #3-5 above?  Well, I’ll explain using my own system as an example below:

     My system is located in an approximately 23’ x15’ living room with 8’ ceilings.  I use a pair of 6’x2’ 3-way Magnepans panels as my main speakers.  I run them full range but they only reproduce high quality bass down to a rated 35 Hz +/- 3 db.  I use an Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub DBA system to reproduce bass frequencies between 20 to 40 Hz.      A 1K watt class AB sub amp/control unit Is used to power and control the 4 relatively small passive subs that are each 12” x 14.5” x 28” and about 40lbs. Two of these subs are located along my front 15’ wall, with each located at opposite ends of this wall and about 2’ away away from the nearest corner.       The other 2 subs are positioned along the 23’ side walls, with one on each opposite side wall about 2’ away from each rear corner.  My listening seat is roughly centered on the rear 15’ wall and directly between and about 6’ away from each left right side wall sub.       So, with the above setup and me sitting in my listening chair, I perceive a three dimensional soundstage along the front of my room that usually spans the full 15’ width of the room with the soundstage front usually beginning roughly at the front plane formed by the fronts of my main speakers and extending back at least the 3‘-4’ distance from the rear of my main speakers to the front wall behind them, but I often perceive the soundstage as much deeper Zane even wider on very good recordings.       Even though I have a sub about 6’ away from me to the right and left, I perceive all of the bass as coming from the solid and stable stereo soundstage illusion existing In front of me at the opposite side of the room, beginning about 16’ away from me. and with the deep bass seeming to originate from the appropriate musical instruments within this illusionary soundstage.
     The explanation is that while the 4 subs are reproducing and launching very long and omnidirectional deep fundamental bass sound waves and notes at frequencies as low as 20 Hz in mono throughout the room, the main speakers are reproducing and launching the much shorter and more directional midrange sound waves that are the overtones or harmonics of the original much deeper fundamental bass tones reproduced by the 4 subs.  These overtones or harmonics are at frequencies that extend above the approximate 80 Hz threshold and are, therefore, able to be localized by us humans.        The final key component is our amazing brains.  They are able to associate the deep mono bass fundamental tones that we cannot localize with the higher frequency stereo overtones or harmonics, that extend beyond 80 Hz and are naturally related to the fundamental bas tones, that we can localize.       As long as the lower frequency deeper sound waves below 80 Hz and the higher frequency overtone or harmonics sound waves above 80 Hz are both detected by our ears within a few milliseconds of each other, our brains are able to process these sound waves as related and create the perception of the overall bass tone sound and exactly where within the sound stage the tone originated from.  For example, it allows the perception that there’s a double bass located at the front left side of the sound stage and the drums are located at the back center of the sound stage.
     I believe that even if I configured my system with discrete left and right channel stereo subs, and there were commercially available music formats that had  separate left and right channel bass content down to 20 Hz, my overall perception of the sound stage would be very similar to the current overall perception I’ve been enjoying for over 5 years now with my 4-sub DBA system.  I think this would be the reality since I’d stil be iunable to localize bass tones with frequencies below about 80 Hz.     Tim 

If you have the floor space for one unit, then go up UP U P!!

Position as good as you can, treat as much as you can stand, without being yelled at. and go UP... A Column, a stack, hung from the rafters.
If you get them swinging, who know what you might hear.. Whole new craze, SWINGING bass, not swarming...LOL 

Regards

My room is 10' x 14' that includes the audio system, a television, a 75" sofa, an end table, a coffee table, a big honking radiator that could heat a room twice its size and a second door located in a very poor spot. I also have a 4 sub dba. My subs are not small and not located any where near what anyone would consider an ideal location. I put them where ever they would fit, and along with the cables runs to them, not be in anybody's way or intrusive into the room. I can add a couple of chairs in the seating area if I want to.

My point to this diatribe is, even without a single sub being in an optimum location the improvement in how even the bass is over using two subs was quite noticeable. Impact and sound stage were unaffected with the additional subs other than the that everything was little more clear. IOW multiple subs make locating and integrating subs much easier.

I also felt the improvement gained by adding a third sub was greater than the improvement gained when the fourth sub was added.

Hi xcool!  Definitely a subwoofer.  Realize that 250 watts Is only 10 db louder than 25 watts. EVEN IF YOU WENT TO 750 WATTS (eek!) it would only sound 6 db louder. The problem is not power, it's room placement and calling in a specialist - the sub.  Play with placement and be amazed. Keep Smiling!

@xcool - Hey if anyone wants to accuse me of being a DBA Swarm cult member, I will proudly wear that moniker. But to your point regarding room space (or lack thereof), I have just installed a DBA Swarm from AudioKinesis in a 10’ X 14’ room.
3 subs are placed up high facing the ceiling.
Just one sub is on the floor next to my desk facing forward.

If this room feels cramped, it’s certainly not because of the sub on the floor (which is a nice place for my lamp!).

No "forest" of subs nor mess of wires.

Through some fluke with Parts Express (in a positive way!) I ended up with an extra Dayton amp.

I am so impressed with the results in my small office that I will likely be purchasing 4 (or more) subs for the extra Dayton to have a second Swarm in my living room.

Tweak the room by placing the speakers and dial in a sub so that it disappears. 

A small REL might be an intriguing option.  T/5i maybe. Their claim to fame is precise blending with existing speakers, using hi-level output and small fast subwoofers.

Hi very intresting tread and i want to add a little focus to another detail.

its ofcourse very importaint with the correct speaker placement but it is the same for the placement of the lisining position.
long ago Kevin Woecks from Shell/ Revel designed a smart software to calculate the first 3 standing waves in all 3 direktions x,y, z for the individual room size you plottet in.
The program even suggested some ideal ( best compromise ) placement for the speakers and the lisining position.
Beside that, you could print out the result and see how the standing waves increased or decreased when you changed positions of the speaker or lisining position.
Again in all direktions x,y and z.
This is a very nice tool to start your positioning. Depending on you speakers response in the bass you can make position corrections and actually have an idear what will happend.
Maybee some dealer still has the program installed and can help you.
If the standing waves are better controled it makes the bass feel more lifelike with better artikulation and punch beside that the midrange opends up.

I also expirenced that correct decoupling of all the equipment strongly affects the sound and in particular the bass very much but thats comon known but is actually also is very importaint what else you have in you lisining room. Every item that is in the room will somehow absorb music energy ( air preassure ) and even contribute to the sound with resonances, so you need to find a good ballance here too.

Also the placement of all the  equipment is critical and the worst place is right between the speakers where the SPL has the highest level. 

A cheap tweak is to get the equipment including all the cabels away from the floor so that there is no direct pfysical path for the vibrations between the speakers and equipment. 
Solid floor, walls and roof minimises the absorbtion of the depest bass but can be difficult to change but that might be a huge diffrence between the dealers room and yours.
I too think a pair of active subwoofer with frequency correction are a easy way the solve many of the problems in the bass range. And they have become so easy to operate via build in automation. 
 
Stay healthy and enjoy the music.

It you're thinking about a new pre amp you could demo the Anthem STR and play with ARC (Anthem's room correction). Also equipped with a very nice DAC. 

Good luck!

One interesting and inexpensive method to adjust your frequency response humps and dips in the room is to use the built in parametric EQ function in Roon - you can even use Roon for 14 days for free to try it out, play around with the EQ and if you can boost bass in the right frequency ranges and avoid "bloat" you may find that the $129 for a year is well worth it in addition to the user interface it provides...

I am amazed at the hostility evident on threads like this with people who have apparently never tried something reacting negatively towards it and offering 'advice' which in some cases is clearly wrong.

The DBA concept works, and works in such a way that it seems to defy credulity. Yes its science and reading Toole, Geddes and Beranek will bear this out, although the latter is heavy going.

In a nutshell, the multiple sub approach will smooth out the bass, something that can not be achieved with EQ. I can understand the general reluctance to adopt this approach with all the imagined clutter and inconvenience. If that is the main objection then I suppose your turntable, pre and power amp/s, steamer, dac, a stand or two to house it all and then speakers and cables across the floor can also be considered as clutter. Its part of what it takes to enjoy music. A little imagination can reduce the perceived clutter by using a sub as support for a bookshelf or have a lamp or beautiful plant placed on top etc.

Bass traps will also smooth out the response. Multiple standing waves in a room combine constructively and destructively causing peaks and nulls and  the traps help with this and more importantly reduce the decay time.

Science shows that if the reflected sound is not delayed by 6ms. minimum, relative to the direct sound, the ear has trouble differentiating between the two, resulting in detail smear, so do not push the speakers towards the corners for more bass as someone earlier suggested.

Science also shows that there is a target reverberation time that is required for optimum audio reproduction. This is not guesswork, there are tables providing this information and it will be seen that it varies according to the size of the room. It demands the sound decay evenly across the spectrum by 60dB in about 400ms. for the average listening room. This is known as T60

I fully agree with a DBA but they need to obey the T60 rule. Bass traps, Big Bad Bass Traps. Untamed bass, no matter how smooth, if left to decay naturally will cause congestion and obscure detail.

Correct decay time is achieved by introducing absorption. There is much to be gained by reading up on how to accomplish this and also, if you are serious, by measuring the effects of any treatment you add. REW and Holm Impulse are free to download, then buy a suitable microphone. Will be your cheapest and most useful investment ever.

Science also shows that to absorb low frequencies (bass) it requires large space-taking devices. They of course can also be mounted hotizontaly up high against the wall/ceiling corners where they are out of the way, unless you are consuming strange substances and spend time flying around the room  :)  Do a search for DIY superchunk bass traps.  If any body thinks that little pieces of foam will absorb bass, they won't.  Look at the formula:  Lambda=velocity/frequency,  where velocity of sound is 343m/s That means 100Hz wavelength is 3.43 meters long!

I have recently installed bass traps in the two front corners of my room running vertically from floor to ceiling and measure 900mm (35.5") across. They have made a remarkable difference but measurement shows I need more!

@OP to address your question after this long winded rant, I suggest you will be fine with your existing amp. Look seriously at room treatment and get a sub or 2 or 3 or 4. Strongly recommend acquiring the means to measure your room. I see guys paying much more for a power cable and I think I can safely guarantee a treated room will have a HUGE transformative result. I have a friend with the same speakers you have driven by a 135W Bryston integrated amp producing tight, clean bass after some basic room treatments.

@millercarbon: It appears you have spent considerable time and money on your room but one picture shows some black foam looking things in the wall/wall corners and tiny pieces in the upper trihedrals. If they are intended to absorb bass then I'm afraid they will be failing in that duty. I'm making an observation, not a criticism.

@ cowan21737  Hi, It would be great if it were that simple. The big peaks and dips/nulls happen at low frequency and boosting in that range will unduly tax the amplifier and the dip will largely remain due to cancellation.  Unfortunately that smoothing can really only be accomplished in 3 ways. Use multiple subs or bass traps or preferably both.

Nice post lemonhaze.

@atmasphere  Hi, I think we are out of phase on your one statement.

no, you don't treat a room with traps because it literally doesn't work

I have assisted many people installing broadband absorbers and bass traps, some for friends and some to make pocket money, in between jobs. In every case they have been overjoyed with the results. In my own home I used Omnimic V2 to measure the before and after results of the room treatments. The CSD plots show less ringing in the time domain and a general smoothing of all frequencies after treatment.

Measurements show that I am slightly overdamped in the upper mid-range but do actually need, I would guess, about  20/ 25% more bass trapping, however the sound I'm getting now has totally transformed the sound to the point where my wife and I are spending more time just wallowing in music and discovering new delights.

Have you actually tried sufficiently large traps in sufficient quantity to make an audible difference? I see guys using hopelessly small bits of foam or similar that at beat could only trap dust.

In my opinion a subwoofer's main purpose is not LOUDER bass, but deeper bass, higher quality bass. Few "full range" speakers are truly full range. 

Lemonhaze is correct on this, traps do work, but most people have woefully inadequate traps which are either large, expensive, or both. That is one of the reasons for many why a bass array is a better proposition for most within the limits of what they are going to achieve. 

You touch on a point that many miss, in that you have to be careful with the materials you use. Absorbent foam can often throw off tonal balance by absorbing too much mid-highs compared to base. Foam tends to be pretty useless in bass frequencies. Sound deadening fibreglass/rock-wool is far better. In the vast majority of listening spaces, I don't think standard bass traps with massive amount of fibre/rockwool and hence enormous size, like yours are practical and hence perhaps that is why atmasphere says they literally do not work ... because for most people they don't. In most listening rooms, the only practical acoustic solution for truly controlling bass resonant modes is a Helmholz resonator and to use one effectively, you need to take measurements and install the right ones and and/or get tunable ones. Strangely enough, the most "ardent" audiophiles, rarely have this simple and low cost measurement equipment preferring to "trust" their ears.

Have you actually tried sufficiently large traps in sufficient quantity to make an audible difference? I see guys using hopelessly small bits of foam or similar that at beat could only trap dust.

@lemonhaze  Certainly! Bass traps saved the day in our room at one of the last T.H.E. Shows in Las Vegas.

But a DBA simply does it better, that's all. You do the DBA first, **then** the bass traps (if needed), since the DBA is far more effective at sorting out bass problems.

Fixing bass in a room is not always thanks to bass traps.
Having the correct mid/treble diffusion and absorption can also increase the perceived bass by reducing the mid/treble energy, plus better imaging and reduced echo. All good side effects.

In other words, you don't increase the bass, you just reduce the mid/treble energy, while bass traps reduce bass energy somewhat, they smooth it out as well.

The moral of all this is one size doesn't fit all; in fact, the very opposite, every case is unique.  Variables, among other things: size of room, construction of room (floor, walls, ceiling); viable positions for speakers; speakers themselves, etc.  Some people will achieve excellent results with 2 subs, a happy few (?) with one.  And some may need more for "equitable" bass.  The upshot: one solution doesn't suit all.

@ erik_squires  Hi, you seem to be on a crusade to put down something which is valid and sorts out what is a real and common bass problem. I think the recommendations, for a DBA including from myself are in response to an understandable and innocent question from the OP.

By making these recommendations nobody stands to gain anything except for audiokinesis who can be commended for not relentlessly punting his product, unlike some vendors.

Casting aspersions on somebodies honesty and integrity is off-field and you need to wind your neck in on this. I think the ethos of a thread like this is to contribute in some meaningful way and not thread crap.

@ erik_squires Hi, you seem to be on a crusade to put down something which is valid and sorts out what is a real and common bass problem. I think the recommendations, for a DBA including from myself are in response to an understandable and innocent question from the OP.

I've never put down the swarm on the technical claims, and your claim of my crusade is clear projection.  I've even seen fake / one time use accounts created to refute any other options beside the swarm are viable.
People can ask about FM tuners and some one will jump in to recommend the swarm as a fix.

It's not the technology, it is the cult and those who push it.

Best,
E

This might be a shot in the dark, but have you experimented with power cords at all?
I had a power amp that changing out the stock power cord, was like Jesus showing up in the room. (Thought I'd throw that in since we were talking about cults)
Also Schiit makes that inexpensive equalizer..

Duke and Ralph did a great job of clarifying the swarm concept and it's applications to different settings, with related options...great to get the info finally from very knowledgeable members...

Posted by Erik Squires in this thread:

" Jesus, the 4 sub cult is strong here. "

" The cult: Your problem is you have 1/3 the number of speakers you need!! You must add 4 more, bring it up to six!!! "

" What I have a problem with is the cult that they are the one thing that should be discussed when a poster asks for help with a little more bass. "

" Are any of you listening to yourselves?? Really?? "

" Hahahha. Cult. "

" The swarm was an interesting idea which is promoted by fetishists whose motives and honesty I question. "

" To hear the fanatics tell it, no one has even heard bass before them, and only they can fix it. Also, only they know about room acoustics. It’s magic. Ignore all the previous work that has gone before, because it’s bunk before the swarm. "

" You have convinced me of your intension$$$$$$$$$$$$. "

" People can ask about FM tuners and some one will jump in to recommend the swarm as a fix. "

" It’s not the technology, it is the cult and those who push it. "

Erik, I really am surprised to see you engage in what looks to me like name-calling, straw man arguments, mocking, innuendo, and hyperbole... though I must admit the one about FM tuners was kinda funny.

Maybe there is a different way for you to perceive people who advocate a technology which you concede has merit? Maybe they are not enemies, but fellow audiophiles who are sometimes overly enthusiastic about something?

Nobody here is taking offense and/or accusing you of cultish behavior because you consistently advocate for room treatments, another technology which has merit. That would be out of place, wouldn’t it?

Hopefully we can get to the point where we can disagree without being disagreeable.

Duke

lemonhaze62 posts04-24-2020 4:58am

which in some cases is clearly wrong.

I took a paragraph to explain what you did in a chapter.

I'm getting better.  or am I? LOL

But I like "Lemon Haze", the Haze brothers, THC Titans for sure.


I'm with Eric in a lot of this. Squat, grunt ,and crap out another sub/unit, anywhere works!!  It my work but sure muddies the waters for me..

It may improve the SQ of that system, but I question where that system was before swarm/DBA.  

I can honestly say, my old way is better, not by a small margin either.
Less distortion, and far more directed. I don't want BASS everywhere, I want it at the listening position(S) not everywhere in the house and the room for that matter..Control that sh#t.. get rid of it, don't make it..

Have any of you measured the bass distortion with these swarm rich environment. It's gotta be off the chart, unless it's all digital. What's the fun in that, anyone can do that. There is a trick or two though., and NO digital correction.

I have 6 units, usually 2 bass columns and one or two sub units, if at all. Sometimes when the kids are over, I'll flip off the columns and used the 4 lowriders, KID stuff, BIG BOOM, in the ROOM..local PD has been here to give it a listen..LOL, they all like it too, bunch of kids, too from what I see.

Regards

The question of the day which I believe George came close to asking you is what system was driving the 804’s when you were listening to them in the store? Also did you ask them to make sure the subwoofer was off when they demo’d the speaker’s? A lot of advise offered and some were excellent advice but start at the beginning of why you bought the speakers in the first place and what was driving them. You may be shocked on what you find out especially if you bought them from Best Buy Magnolia. Some of the sales force is not the best when it comes to operating their demo systems (Like turning off the subwoofer while the speakers are being demo’d. Just a thought.

Atmasphere:”But a DBA simply does it better, that’s all. You do the DBA first, **then** the bass traps (if needed), since the DBA is far more effective at sorting out bass problems.”


Hello atmasphere,

     Based on my experience using the Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub DBA for the past 5years, I believe your advise is exactly correct. I didn’t plan on buying the DBA first and then add bass traps if needed, I just happened to inadvertently follow the advice you’d give 5 years later. I used my 4-sub DBA for abut 4 years with absolutely no room treatments except wall to wall carpeting. I currently use it in a fully GIK treated room per their suggested reasonably expensive room treatment plan following a free room analysis.      Their plan called for 2 of their fairly large TriTrap bass traps stacked in all 4 corners of my room, four 2’x2’x 5.5” thick bass trap wall panels. GIK’s plan also called for about sixteen 4’x2’ acoustic wall panels installed that are a combination of strategically placed absorption and diffusion panels.
     My main focus for having a professional room analysis done was to determine whether room treatments could make even further incremental improvements to my system’s midrange, treble and imaging quality. I was very concerned, however, with GIK’s suggestion of fairly extensive bass traps in my room. The bass quality in my room with the DBA in use was already, at that time, what I considered near state of the art without a single bass trap. I definitely wanted to avoid compromising my system’s excellent bass quality by deploying bass traps. After receiving assurances from GIK and A K’s Duke Lejeune that was traps would not negatively effect the DBA’s bass quality, l decided to include them all in my room treatment install.
     They were correct, I’ve noticed no negative effects in The DBA’s bass quality with a full complement of acoustic room treatments, including bass traps. I have noticed significant improvements in my system’s overall clarity, articulation and imaging, mainly in the midrange and treble range, I believe the bass traps helped extend this increase in overall clarity and detail down into the bass region but it’s difficult to claim with any certainty, since the bass was already very clear and detailed prior to adding the bass traps.      I can state with certainty that the added bass traps have had no negative effects on the DBA’s bass quality in my room. I actually think your previous comment, I believe I read on another thread, perfectly sums up my opinion on the DBA concept in actual application: “The DBA is an elegant bass solution”. Well stated and true.

Tim

I have had very good results with 2 REL T9i subs (that’s 9" plus passive radiators). I use the high level speaker outs and let REL’s internals do their magic. (On movies the REL "listens" to the Sub LFE output, but it’s not stereo.)
Very nice lower bass that enhances mid-range imaging. Flat to <25hz with few nodes as I roam about with my sound level meter, or just my ears. I use the old Stereo Review Test Record for node checking, then music.
Chest thumping impact on movies, but it’s the stereo listening that is really enhanced.
I followed the REL instructions for setup, which were unlike any technique I had used before. Then it’s just dialing in levels.
(Parasound A51, Dynaudio floorstanders + surounds. 18X35 room. I also have a window wall. Wood floors, area rugs and some minor wall treatments.)
Trying to EQ flat bass below 50hz on those B&W will drive them into directionality, if not distortion. Letting the REL’s do their internal crossover reduces overdriving the main speakers and they will be happier.
I drive 85dB as reference, without listener fatigue (the true measure of distortion(s)). That’s way too loud for an apartment.
Little subs, easy placement. Smaller REL’s in a small room would probably work well, too.
I have never liked big subs for stereo listening, although I have spent time with HSU and SVS. Great for "I have a SUB!" display to visitors but marginal for pure stereo. (Also had a Hartley 36" for fun.)

A lot of good answers. Sounds like a room problem. Two basic problems, speakers not coupling to room walls or bass cancelation based on room size relative to listening area. If moving your speakers don't do the trick, then try adding a sub. Check dealer for return policy. A single sub should provide enough punch and accuracy to satisfy most tastes.

It seems like this thread has drifted away a bit from helping the OP, xcool, with his specific bass issue and toward how to attain very good in-room bass performance in general. I think I’ve contributed to this drift off topic as much or more than anyone and I apologize to xcool for doing so.
      The 4-sub DBA concept has provided the best bass quality I’ve ever experienced in my system and room. Because of this, and the fact that the DBA concept has the capacity to work equally as well in virtually any room and seamlessly integrate with any pair of main speakers, I’ve felt a responsibility to spread the word to fellow music and a/v equipment enthusiasts on the efficacy of the DBA concept.      I realize that some may attribute my enthusiastic advocacy of the DBA concept to ulterior motives but I can’t control that. I can only honestly state that I have none and my intent is solely to share my very positive DBA experiences. I’m actually very surprised with the apparent lack of awareness and usage of the DBA concept here on Audiogon. It’s not exactly a new concept and it’s effectiveness has been consistently proven both scientifically and anecdotally.

     However, contrary to popular belief I also realize and believe that a 4-sub DBA may not be the best bass solution for everyone, For example, the OP xcool.
     The first consideration is that he lives in an apartment, with limited space and likely lease restrictions on allowable modifications he can make within it. While 4 subs would undoubtably offer the best bass performance, they may not be practical for him. But I believe even a single very good quality larger sub with rated bass extension down to 20 Hz, and optimally positioned in the room in relation to the listening seat using the crawl method, would result in a significant improvement in bass performance. It may even be possible to create a mini-DBA effect at your listening seat utilizing just 3 bass transducers in your room. One woofer in each of your main speakers equals 2 and the woofer in the added sub makes the total number of bass transducers launching bass sound waves into your room equal 3. The sub crawl method of locating the sub would ensure you don’t position the sub at a specific room position that results in standing waves and poor bass at your listening seat.
     Having the added sub also capable of outputting bass down to 20 Hz could result in the perception that the overall bass extension of your system has been deepened. I want to be clear that I’m not stating this will definitely work in your room, just that it may be worth a try. I don’t think it would be difficult to find a dealer willing to let you borrow a larger, very good quality sub capable of bass extension down to 20 Hz.      The second consideration is that your using B&W floor standing speakers, with the bass, midrange and treble transducers all in a single cabinet, likely arranged vertically. Assuming your positioning your main speakers like most individuals do, in a triangular configuration in relation to the listening seat to optimize the mid/treble and stereo imaging performance, the positioning of the bass drver(s) in each speaker have not been optimized in the room and in relation to your listening seat for optimum bass performance perception at the listening seat.      In other words, because the bass producing woofer drivers in your main speakers are not capable of being independently positioned In your room, it’s not possible to optimize the bass quality at your listening.seat. This is an issue with virtually all floor standing full range speakers. By optimizing the mid/high frequency and stereo imaging performance at the listening seat via precise locating of the speakers in the room and in relation to the listening seat, the bass performance is compromised since the bass drivers are fixed in place, typically below the midrange driver and tweeter, and they cannot be precisely located in the room and in relation to the listening seat to optimize bass performance at the listening seat. Even if your floor standing speakers have multiple woofers or built in self amplified subs and had a rated bass extension flat down to 20 Hz, this high quality bass will not be perceived at the listening seat if they are not positioned in your room and in relation to your listening seat to optimize bass performance.
     The above explains why I suggested in a prior post the use of 2 relatively small subs that can be independently positioned in your room for optimized bass performance at your listening seat such as the SVS-SB-1000 or similar Hsu subs with rated bass extension close to 20 Hz, may be the best bass solution for you.      You would need to optimize the positioning of one sub first in your room using the crawl method and then optimize the room location of the other sub, with the first sub operating, and again using the crawl method.      In general, 2 subs will perform and sound about twice as well as a single sub. The benefits of using 2 subs are that both subs are operating well below their limits, the bass is smoother, faster, more detailed, with a general sense of ease and the bass will be better integrated or blended with your main speakers. You also have the option of using whatever pair of subs you’d like that meet your preferences and budget.

Best wishes,
Tim

we've also lost track of the fact that the OP was satisfied with the speakers bass at the dealers...so the difference is his set-up/room and equipment...I would certainly start by going back to the dealer and see what equipment was being used and recheck their set up...now if you demoed them there but bought them elsewhere they won't be much help...

Hi @jl35 that experience of hearing punchy bass out of the B&W 804 D3 was almost 2 years ago in the Magnolia studio of Best Buy.  I wasn't super serious at the time of buying a new pair of speakers, but just happened was able to listen to them that day.   Actually, overall it didn't sound that great in the Magnolia show room.  I thought the speakers were very bright, but it did leave an impression of good bass.  I vaguely remember it was driven by a Rotel Integrated.  I think the source was my iPhone playing 128 kbps AAC files.   Wonder if the compressed AAC music actually generated some good bass.  :-)

I eventually bought the speakers a couple of months ago from a local dealer after auditioning them against a pair of Sonus Faber Olympica Nova II.

Hey @noble100 no need to apologize,  I appreciate all the suggestions and opinions offered by many of you,  and learned quite a bit from this thread.

Cheers!

I wonder if a 128kbps file even has deep bass...I’m one of the lucky ones whose system sounds great with one sub, and the REL made a big difference over my large floor standers, so would definitely recommend an REL trial...the S models have just been replaced, so there are some good deals out there...

Xcool wrote:  

" Actually, overall it didn't sound that great in the Magnolia show room.  I thought the speakers were very bright, but it did leave an impression of good bass.  I vaguely remember it was driven by a Rotel Integrated. " 

My understanding is that Rotels have tone controls, so it is POSSIBLE that the bass (and perhaps also the treble) were boosted when you heard the B&W's.  Boosted bass & treble tends to sound impressive in a quick audition, so back in the day when tone controls were the norm rather than the exception it was something we had to watch out for. 

Schitt makes a very nice and nicely-priced external tone control unit called the Loki which you could add to your system. 

(At RMAF 2017, Schitt was displaying in the room next to ours.  I proposed a trade:  a pair of my speakers for one of their amps.  They declined; apparently my speakers aren't worth a Schitt... sorry, couldn't resist... ) 

Duke

You know I read your question again. What about a single double 8" or 12" OB  servo, like GR Research.  That would fit the bill of purest, a little better.  The H or W frames pressure the room in a way that's not near as intrusive as a conventional bass systems They can reach an honest 20hz, if the signal is there, though. A cleaner, more precise bass.  Maybe purest, can also mean "The Bass lite crowd", not everyone need heart stopping bass, ay?

Regards

Hello.
Sorry that you have bought a pair of B&Ws.
This has always been there achilles heal. They lack in the low octaves. I know of many B&W owners that have had to add sub woofers to fix this issue.But saying that as you said you are a purist and i used to think the same as you. But the REL subs is the answer as they are faster than nearly all others out there. The key is you need 2. Caution if you go to cheap subs this will head you down the path of no return.
Regards Alex

This has always been there achilles heal. They lack in the low octaves.

Only if driven by amps that can't handle their loading (impedance +negative phase angle) in the bottom end with copious amounts of current,  which nearly all the mid/upper end models have.

Cheers George

Maybe there is a different way for you to perceive people who advocate a technology which you concede has merit?

@audiokinesis

Maybe there’s a different way for swarm fan boys to behave more respectfully towards others and try to answer the OP’s question without asking him to triple the number of speakers in his home??

I did not get to this opinion randomly or without experience. Invariably, the swarm people attempt sideline any other solution that is not swarm.

My perception of the intent of the swarm promoters has gone from thinking they are merely happy fanboys to something entirely different as a result of enough interactions. The combination of lack of acceptance of previous knowledge and science as well as the attempt of fitting into every system, and random people showing up trying to make up reasons why only swarm could possibly work and misquoting experts has really worn my nerves thin.

I cannot imagine this type of behavior as coming from sincerity anymore. Maybe there’s a way the swarm cult can stop thinking I’m a fool who would not notice? Just spit balling.

(At RMAF 2017, Schitt was displaying in the room next to ours. I proposed a trade: a pair of my speakers for one of their amps. They declined; apparently my speakers aren't worth a Schitt... sorry, couldn't resist... )

@audiokinesis - Well Duke I think you lucked out, sometimes the best trades are the ones that are never made. Had you gone through with it you probably would have felt like Schitt afterwards.

@erik_squires - I feel you. In fact there is one particular "swarm" user whose posts I entirely skip now.

As a happy DBA user I don't propose it is the answer to all things bass related, but I also don't feel room treatments is the answer either (and let's face it @erik_squires you do propose it as a solution quite a bit and in the process always mention GIK - whose stuff has never wowed me). In fact in my opinion room treatments invariably do more harm than good, mainly because of the suspect claims some manufacturers out there make regarding what their products can actually do. Getting rid of my room treatments and replacing them with a DBA is probably the best thing I ever did. Don't even get me started on DSP.

Duke is one of the good guys around here and I would like to thank him for his assistance in helping me pick out some new 10" drivers for my next DBA adventure when he had no financial gain in doing so.

@erik_squires wrote: "Maybe there’s a different way for swarm fan boys to behave more respectfully towards others and try to answer the OP’s question without asking him to triple the number of speakers in his home??"

"Swarm fan boys" are not perfect either, and neither am I. I have seen "swarm fan boys" come across as mocking other solutions, and hope I have not done that. But I didn’t see them labelling others as a "cult" or accusing them of dishonesty.

Erik: "Invariably, the swarm people attempt sideline any other solution that is not swarm."

"Invariably"? This is an exaggeration. As far as "sidelining any other solution", that’s a judgment call; could such terminology be applied to your posts advocating room treatments? In practice nobody has time to make a truly comprehensive post so we focus on a few things.

"My perception of the intent of the swarm promoters has gone from thinking they are merely happy fanboys to something entirely different as a result of enough interactions."

This is innuendo, and assumes the worst about a whole group of people based on interaction with a few. And in case you are implying that there is some sort of "promotion" effort by "swarm promoters", I have NEVER asked any of my customers to either post, or not post, anything. I seldom even thank them.

"The combination of lack of acceptance of previous knowledge and science as well as the attempt of fitting into every system..."

These are exaggerations.

"... and random people showing up trying to make up reasons why only swarm could possibly work".

I have not noticed these alleged posts by random people, can you point them out? And did they REALLY say that "only swarm could possibly work"?

"... and misquoting experts..."

That’s possible, but not necessarily evidence of nefarious intentions. Can you show me?

"I cannot imagine this type of behavior as coming from sincerity anymore."

When we assume the worst about someone else, who does that say the most about, them or us?

"Maybe there’s a way the swarm cult can stop thinking I’m a fool who would not notice?"

Name-calling, and assuming facts not in evidence.

Erik, I do not question your integrity. I think you are sincerely pissed off, and I think you are seeing what you want to see. I also think that’s a choice, but of a type we tend not to be aware of.  I think you are defending something which does not need defending. 

"Just spit balling."

Me too.

Duke

Thanks @jl35 @bonsai15 for suggesting REL subwoofers. I just checked out their website and they seem very nice. I was thinking about trying out SVS SB16-Ultra. It seems to get a lot good review. But somehow REL got mentioned quite a bit in this discussion, so I will trust your recommendations.

One thing about REL that might be a show stopper for me is the down firing passive driver. Let me just share a quick story with you guys. Just a couple of days ago, I decided to give my old 1990’s era DefTech subwoofer (250 watt & 15" driver) a try and hook it up to play music with my B&W speakers, and I also pushed the subwoofer farther into the corner of my living room. I was messing with the gain switch a little to get some good thumping out of it. Later that evening the building manager sent out an email to all residents that he received a complaint from some residents that they hear very loud bass music coming through their wall, and reminded us this is against condo rule. I’ve been using my subwoofer for TV and movies for years and this is the first time I get a complain so I need to be very careful going forward. I think pushing the subwoofer farther into the corner might be the main culprit. Anyway, I immediately ordered a pair of SVS SoundPath Isolator from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NCSQ5GK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Does anyone have experience with these? Do you know if they work?

Anyway, back to the REL subwoofer, I’m afraid the downward passive driver might be a problem in my situation. Unless maybe I can stack it on top of my old sub.

Xcool wrote: "Later that evening the building manager sent out an email to all residents that he received a complaint from some residents that they hear very loud bass music coming through their wall..."

My guess is that the heavy passive radiator moving up and down was effectively transmitting its vibrations into the floor itself, whereas if that motion had been in the horizontal plane the vibration transmission to the floor would have been much less.

In addition to avoiding vertical cone motion, you might consider the use of an isolation platform such as the Auralex SubDude. It is designed to very significantly reduce the transmission of vibrations to your floor.

Air-borne vibrations are more of a challenge because that’s what sound waves are. One possible strategy would be to place the subwoofer as close to the listening position as possible, so that you don’t have to turn it up quite as loud.

Duke

Hello @erik_squires ,

     Well, I guess we’re all fan boys of something. You seem to be a big fan of acoustic room treatments in general and GIK in particular. I’ve read many of your posts over the years praising both. I’ve always considered your posts interesting, informative and earnest. I’ve always just assumed you had treated your room most likely with GIK products, experienced very positive results and thereafter often recommended them to others due to their efficacy.  I never thought of accusing you of having ulterior motives.
     Have you ever considered that members of your imaginary Swarm Cult may have just independently followed similar paths as you after experiencing very positive results with their DBA systems?

Tim

Hi Duke, thanks for the suggestion on Auralex SubDude.   I wonder how they compare to the SVS SoundPath Isolator that I just ordered.  They are both highly rated in Amazon.

Also they both seem to reduce vibration to the floor.  I wonder by reducing that, will it also reduce vibration to the wall.   Do you have any suggestion on reducing vibration to the wall behind and to the side of my subwoofer?  Would acoustic panel or bass trap help?

Thanks.