Do speakers lose their magic to an extent that renders them less capable to a significant extent after 15-18 years
Hardly - people use speakers from the ’40s with great success. The question is, are you STILL captivated by the sound of these speakers?
The Wilson W-P are very good speakers but you have many other alternatives nowadays at those prices (ATC, Estelon, Rockport, Magico, Revel, Zellaton etc) -- and there is lots of fun to be had in researching.
Or you can simply stick to your old time favs and enjoy the tunes!
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If I were you, I would attend 1 or 2 audio shows. I think they can be fun and educational. Plus you can be exposed to the kind of equipment that’s available today. IMHO
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Welcome back!
Age alone would not hinder me from getting speakers that you love, as long as the surrounds aren’t degraded, or any ferro fluid isn’t dried up.
I’ll second the Magico recommendation, and add speakers from Claryis Audio. Sonus Faber is another top level name that's well regarded.
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Age would be a factor as Wilson's are known to have issuwith surrounds degrading over time however newer loudspeakers will outperform them
Focal aria legacy and atc will sound better
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Auditoroy my Andra after twenty yrs they need to have recone on the woofer. Many owners of Andra gave up too soon. I almost did . I believe old speakers still keep their magic as long as they are played and maintained. My KLH model 9 still sound good. The original owner took care of them. Jaime if you really love the WP go for it. Make sure they are in good shape.I would also recommend to listen to other speakers.
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You don’t say what your budget is, so it is difficult to give you clear advice. However, I have a pair of Wilson Sabrina X’s that I love very much, powered by a Pass Labs 250.8. A great combo and if bought used, you can have your “retirement” system!
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This very recent thread should answer your questions.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/wilson-watt-3-puppy-2-loudspeaker
Wierd...almost smells like someone’s wanting to get rid of some old watt puppy real bad and the stars are getting lined up for that desperate soul ...something in the air, I say.
I suppose you can get one and try modding the crossover to tame some of its issues, make it a project speaker if you can snag one dirt cheap.
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I don’t think those older inverted-dome metal tweeters are competitive with today’s better designs and will likely need to be tamed by electronics/cables. I’d go listen to some of Wilson’s more recent designs with a silk dome tweeter and see what you think. For someone in your position I strongly second the recommendation to go to an audio show or two and listen to some speakers from the likes of Sonus Faber, Joseph Audio, Vandersteen, ProAc, Rockport, Magico, Usher, YG, etc. in addition to Wilson to get a better idea and perspective on what else is out there today. Best of luck.
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jayctoy yes in some cases.
I owned wilson wp 3 and fives when
I opened my shop We brought in usher and dali loudspeakers these models were way less expensive and outperformed the older wilsons
at axponna the alta audio adam at 20k sounded as good as a 40k wilson daw
dave and Troy
audio Intellect NJ
dali alta dealers
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Similar spot as you but maybe a year or two ahead. I will parrot back the good advice I received from this site. I suggest listening to different systems as much as you can. Different speakers and equipment will present different sound or sound different. You will want to match the equipment you buy to the type of sound you like and the type of music you listen to. Read and listen, read and listen. Don’t hesitate to listen for a long time. If you can learn before you buy, it will be a big benefit. Finally, you may be presented with systems at first sound good, but after long term listening/owning are not so great. I was told new listeners look for treble details, big bass, and chase specs. I was guilty of this. Instead focus on the emotion the music brings out, your involvement with the music, and the mid range. Finally, there are great deals used if you get to know the market and can find a seller you trust. Good luck and enjoy.
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I helped assemble a system for a friend. They include a set of used Puppies 8, I believe. They sound fantastic coupled with. New ARC preamp and amp. The woofers have just been re-taped. A great combination. You get the natural warm sound of the ARC and highly detailed sound.
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Audiotroy annually I attended axpona, Alta room always sounds musical. For many yrs I wasn’t impress with Wilson until last year I heard the Wilson and Dan Agostino gear with them. Quintessen audio finally got it right. I was floored. I believe now with the right gear , cabling, and room? Wilson Watt puppy will shine.
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All of this subjective. Everyone hears differently, Reviews are a guide but not the final word. Go with what sound you like, nobody here can tell you that. Find gear within your budget.
Here are some suggestions - Line Magnetics amps are excellent because they use very good transformers. That is where the music starts. Take a look at Revival speakers. Excellent for the money. Find a source that you like that is very subjective. You don't need to spend a lot to get great sound, just know what makes music sounds good.
Happy Listening.
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Well, thank you all for the sage advice! I feel I can exhale regarding performance degradation over the years. I will heed your advice regarding audio shows, also, very good insight on our own emotional intelligence in choosing a speaker based on overall emotion and being moved by how the music makes us feel (like how a piece of art on the wall makes us buy it) as apposed to dissecting the music for technical merits. I get it! I would have definitely be lost in this respect.
I can see that this is going to be a moving target with all permutations available with each component in the audio chain. Synergy and personal anatomic differences in each one of us physically adds to the choices (audio acuity to our ears, depth and diameter of ear canal causing different resonant frequency for each of us, so much synaptic variability in our brains....... sorry, got a bit nerdy here).
Moving forward, I'm thinking of jumping up to the Sasha1, which looks like it would be about 4-6K more than pre owned WP8, another 4-6K for the Sasha 2. I'm staring down the slippery slope here. So many questions.... I've been reading some audiophiles saying Sasha 1 to sasha 2 not worth it for the money, some say a big improvement, I'm thinking once again this is a very personal choice based on the above physiologic difference and "fit" we all have. Seems the only way to more closely evaluate the choices in speakers would be to have a decent system and the only variable changing would be the speakers so that A-B comparisons would be meaningful.
Today I heard Focal Scala Utopia being fed by Luxman amp, Rose DAC. Wow, they sounded great, articulate, wide stage, wish i knew more superlatives here...I'm learning tho..
Next to the Focal were a pair of Sonus Faber, I think they were the Olympica, also very nice with tremendous base for their size, but in my opinion lacking in the mid frequencies compared to the Focal, but also not 55K in price either.
Need to read more and visit audio stores more :-)
Jaime
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Definitely audition Rockport speakers. Superb sound. Good luck!
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"Got into med school, married, children, mortgage, fast cars, fine wines"
My hearing has been in a steady decline for quite some time. The stereo doesn’t quite provide the intimacy and emotional connection to the music of years past. But, my cars have gotten faster. If my left knee holds on a little longer, banging gears accompanied by the exhaust note of the "correct" number of cylinders (8, or more) still brings out my inner 9-year-old.
Good luck in the quest for the perfect speakers for you.
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back in circa 1988. Got into med school, married, children, mortgage, fast cars, fine wines and, well, you know how it goes thereafter. fast forward onto the current epoch, a few lbs heavier, tinnitus in one ear and still have the bug and still covet some equipment that I could not afford back then. Well, don’t hear too much of Mark Levinson, Wilson Audio is still around, cassette player are out (remember Nakamichi :-) ), now there’s so much digital this and digital that, servers, streamers.... I’ve got much to learn.
You could spend a lot of cash these days and make mistakes, not get the right combo of gear..or just get tired of things. Mark Levinson is still very much around and his current company is called Daniel Hertz. He sells integrated systems now, speakers + his front end electronics in 1 package and prices range from 20k to 200k (capable of blowing the socks off other things).
Such systems make it easy for you, takes the guesswork out and prevents you from popping in and out of rabbit holes, i.e. this methodology gets you straight to enjoying the music. So, if you are the doc who’s busy saving young lads from dying in the trenches all day, wanna get home, chug wine and relax to music, go the Levinson route maybe.
Daniel Hertz System
But, if you are a tweaker/tinkerer nerd (like many audiophiles), like the thrill of constant tinkering, exploring different permutations, flavors, etc...Levinson’s stuff is not the right avenue for you. For the latter type of tweaking/nerding, you just audit stuff, buy stuff, hoard stuff, mod stuff, sell stuff, etc.... keep it more cyclical, keep at it.
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Where in the country are you located?
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Many systems live and die on the room and room acoustics. Start with the listening room, consider your budget and start acquiring information like you would with any other hobby. I think in the right hands any modern pair of speakers can sound great with proper room, size, placement, and treatment. I'm not an example so much as a victim of difficult rooms, but have heard enough nice ones to still believe.
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@jaimeromero
Go to a few shows and as many dealers as you can. What kinds of music do you like to listen to? How loud do you like to listen to? Tell us about the room you are planning to use, size, windows, floor coverings etc.
I just recently became a Sonus Faber owner and would strongly recommend checking them out in your price range.
All the best.
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Show Season is Starting… Couldn’t have began your search at a better time.
Capitol Audiofest in DC certainly the place to start - November
Florida Int’l HiFi Expo / Tampa - February (Fun in the Sun 👍)
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Regarding your general question of whether or not speakers from 30 years ago still hold up today I can lend a perspective. I have a pair of Thiel CS6 speakers powered by a Krell KSA 300s that date from the mid 90's. I've been to 3 audio shows and I can testify that my system easily holds up to most every system I've heard under 6 figures. I've heard several systems that didn't sound as good as mine where the cables cost more than my entire rig.
I have also observed that the sound quality of speakers have become more similar relative to price. In other words, the difference between $100k speakes and $15k speakers is not as much as you would think. My overall advice is to go to an audio show or two and reconnect with the hobby. You may find that there are wonderful speaker choices that are affordable and that don't have the age related issues that older speakers could have. But if you have your heart set on a pair of WP's I don't think you will be far off the state of the art.
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I didn’t think much of older speakers until I got a 20 year old and then a 40 year old. They both beat my 2 year old Evoke 20s
the difference between $100k speakes and $15k
I am pretty sure it's that last 10%
Same as between a 3K speaker and 15K speaker
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Danny from GR Research has some very illuminating YouTube videos about the subject of speakers, parts and design. He has opened up some expensive speakers and often been surprised/disappointed by what he has found inside and the measurements of the speakers. It’s always good to do homework and it’s not always how much more money you spend….
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I remember my first Wilson Audio experience and understand your interest. If you are on the east coast of the US then the upcoming Capital Audiofest outside of Washington DC this November is highly recommended. The WattPuppy line did seem to mature into the Sasha’s and there is improvement between the 1,2, and DAW versions though one has to consider the price differences. Your room size should also be considered. A smaller room might lead you to look at the smaller Wilson Sabrina X. An audio show would allow you some time to hear many brand and size choices, though they certainly do not represent a fully optimized setup when in a hotel room. I like the Wilson sound, but like @ronboco I love my Rockports.
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I think if you can go out and listen, you will find that the Watt Puppies have been eclipsed in their price range. I audition but can't afford... I'm a window shopper when it comes to a certain price point. I settled on the used Maggie 1.7i, and am about to buy a pair of "bass" panels, but for what the majority of my listening (big band, bop, free jazz, fusion, prog rock, avante garde, experimental, jazz vocalists, and 60's psychedelic) the 1,7i has been great. Hard rockers won't be satisfied with the bass response. Don't throw out the quality cassette deck, in my world there are still artists that release primarily on cassette, and CD, and are sometimes hard to find on streaming platforms because those artists self release and there's no corporate level $$$...
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@jaimeromero
Jaime, tells us about your room and music choice. It would help answer your question. Also, where do you reside.
Saludos, Juan (South FL)
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Hello everyone, thank you kindly for the information you provided. Very helpful. Having confirmatory info from various members resonates with my approach to new purchases. Thank you
I live in Boise Idaho, not much here tho we have grown in the valley over that past 8-10 years. I've been to one high end dealer (see above speaker audition in my post), nice people, very nice physical plant and interior decoration. Planning on going back, but I think its the only high end store in the valley.
As far as room dimensions is concerned, this will change as I plan to sell my current home/property and go back to SoCal where I grew up and did all my training. Thinking on landing in South Orange County somewhere.
Budget: Well, depends on how i'm feeling but I am an emotional buyer and often take the "for a little bit more I can have model x instead of y". I think for the right price I would be interested in the price range of preowned Sash2's but not necessarily DAW. I need to budget for other gear and SoCal will not be inexpensive living.
Again, thank you all for your input
Jaime
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@jaimeromero at (what i think is) the price of used Sasha 2 you should look into some of the new offerings out there.
I like planar drivers and had a brief listen to some PS Audio FR 20 and they are very nice. Worth a test.
Moving to SoCal, you should stop in Sacramento and visit the vintage store there. They have a lot of cool vintage components and speakers.
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@jaimeromero - agree that demoing speakers best course of action as there have been sonic improvements in high-end audio since the old WP. We cannot tell what speakers would subjectively resonate with you.
Starting from scratch, I researched the latest top loudspeakers, then tried to demo them at audio shows and audio stores, keeping in mind that poor audio show rooms often make the speaker perform subpar. After finding the sound I favor, I try to reproduce at home within budget.
Wilson also offers a new 2024 WP with iirc similar drivers as the Sasha V. Personally, I never warmed up to the Wilson sound presentation, my tastes run top Magico and YG speakers. I ended up purchasing the AXPONA audio show demo speakers Vimberg Mino D - they sounded fantastic.
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@jaimeromero ,
Welcome back to the hobby. A mixed bag of advice on this forum. I have been into audio for a similar amount of time. Some has stayed the same, a lot has changed and most confusingly, some brands that were great are less so today.
If you have time and patience, I would recommend coming to Axpona in Chicago, mid-April. Quintessence Audio (which was mentioned earlier) is a fantastic dealer and carries Wilson here in Chicago area. As you will find out Wilson speakers now range new from $20K to $1M and are really excellent as are some of the others mentioned on the thread; i.e. Magico, Sonus Faber and others. Yes, digital is a completely different realm than in the 80’s (separate DAC’s, streamers, etc.) and can be quite good but analogue is still also doing great. Quintessence has both. Other stores I’m familiar with that are in southern CA are Scott Walker Audio and Alma Audio (a new Wilson dealer). My strongest recommendation is to find a store that you feel you can trust and will patiently work with you as you explore what is now available and start to define your wants/needs and most importantly—budget!
I have friends that have assembled really musical systems for <$20K and friends that have systems that are $1M+. Mine is somewhere in the middle. Nice if you can network into a group of friends that are knowledgeable without being “know it alls”.
If you do come to a big audio show, one thing you will quickly realize is that most of the crappy stuff is gone. The general level of equipment has improved. There are many good-great options. But within that reality, the best costs the most… or at least a lot.
The final point I would make is that the cost of your primary components: source, pre-amp (if you’re using), amp (or integrated amp and speakers) is not the end of the story. Cables, racks, power supplies/conditioners, isolation devices, room treatments, etc. can easily cost more than the basic equipment. Make sure when you start to build your system, that you factor in the auxiliaries.
Good luck in your journey and have fun!
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My speakers were built in 1956.
I have been listening to them for 47 years.
For the first two and a half decades, I would come down with a case of FOMO fever about every 5 years or so and go running around listening to stuff I could afford, and stuff I couldn’t. Eventually my immune system built up and I haven’t been doing that anymore.
Every 15 years I get the speakers remagnitized and reconed.
I’m kinda locked into them because my amps love them.
They have their issues but I’ve adjusted other parts of the system to get the sound I want. It’s a late 60s to mid 70s tube sound. It’s not for everybody but it’s not without its subtleties, it’s extraordinarily transparent and detailed (likely thanks to the amps and the cartridge) almost everyone who hears it is blown away, say things like “It’s better than being there”.
So I disagree with many here: all other things equal, newer is not necessarily better. Listen to a bunch of stuff with closed eyes and an open mind. Pick what sounds best. To YOU.
Btw, expensive isn’t necessarily best either. I’ve been tube rolling my phono stage. I’ve been listening to tubes that go from $50 to $500. The guy selling me the tubes was with me in the room trying them out. He suggested that the $50 tube sounded best in my system. That was a relief to hear because I thought it definitely did too but I didn’t trust myself: I thought it was my wallet talking to me.
theaudioatticvinylsundays.com
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Jaime, I would lean on the advise to go out and listen to speakers at dealers or a show if you can. That will give you a flavor of what you prefer now. Sometimes tinnitus can be aggravated by the voicing of some speaker designs.
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Thank you all for chiming in. Exciting to restart my audiophile journey! thank you again for your kind and informative thoughts
Jaime
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If you are not in a hurry to make a purchase, and can wait 6 months, I'd recommend that you go to Axpona in the Chicago area. The show is April 11th through13th. I'd go the entire 3 days,
There will be a lot of the best manufacturers of speakers, amplifiers and preamps, streamers, DACs, etc. You could listen to so much in such a short period of time.
If you are not so patient, you could go to a big dealer (like Upscale Audio near LA), and spend a couple of days listening to your hearts delight. There are so many companies now that did not exist 20 years ago that are state of the art, and you owe it to yourself to get acquainted with them. Some of them are still craftsmen building equipment by hand here in the US, and there is some excellent audiophile equipment coming out of Korea, Japan, Europe, and yes even China
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@vthokie83 This is what I'm doing. This will be my 4th straight year going to AXPONA. Already have my hotel and airlines tickets booked. Many of the rooms are not ideal for listening but it gives you a good idea of what is available and helps you narrow down your choices. Speakers are also on my purchasing list this year. I prefer planers/electrostatics and OB speakers. Also have been to numerous shows in Southern California and a couple of Rocky Mountain shows before they shut that down. If you don't have a higher end dealer close to where you live, then attending these large shows is the next best thing.
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willywonka
I am lucky enough to live in the Chicago area, about 20 minutes from where the show is held in Schaumburg; so I go every year. It really is a great way to find new gear and manufacturers, I still remember the first time I heard a couple of different Joseph Audio speakers; brilliant. Next year I will be focusing on streamers, and possibly speakers
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I retired a few years back and also wanted to get a nice system. In the past (since the 70’s) I have had pretty economical systems. I wanted something more high-end. In listening to systems I discovered that my hearing is not what it was when was younger. Yes, I could hear the difference between a $5k system and a $50k system, but couldn’t afford the later. I started auditioning systems at different price points and found the point where I was happy with the sound and still in my budget. I settled on an all in one streamer, preamp, DAC, and power amp from Linn Audio. I added a nice turntable (vintage LP12) and a pair of bookshelf speakers, as my listening room is very small. My total system was around $7.5k and does everything I need. I could have spent a more and not gained much, or spent a bunch more and moved to the next level, but not worth the cost vs. benefit for me.
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