New TT : Balanced vs. Unbalanced Connection?

I have found that a balanced connection between cartridge and phono stage has much fewer issues with hum, which is to say I’ve had no such issues using a variety of cartridges and tonearms in balanced mode, over a period of more than 20 years. If phono stage is truly balanced, you also get the bonus of more gain. You decide whether to spend the money or not.

OP here.  A related and follow on question would be; is the Thorens, TD–1601, the Schitt Skolll, and the Yamaha A-S3200 all similar technology and compatible from a “balanced“ perspective?  I have read they not all “balanced” claims are the same. Thx

True, the presence of an XLR input, does not prove that they equipment is fully balanced in its internal circuit. This is research you will have to do.

lewm

... presence of an XLR input, does not prove that they equipment is fully balanced in its internal circuit. This is research you will have to do.

That's true. There are also fully balanced phono preamps that use only RCA connections. The connectors themselves don't reveal anything.

OP here. Interesting.

Seems like the Schitt Skoll supports balanced, and the balanced inputs on the Yamahas seem legit also.

From Schitt website: "Balanced. Skoll is balanced and differential all the way through. Of course you have the choice of both balanced and single-ended inputs and outputs."

From Yamaha: "Floating balanced circuit for power amplifier" "fully balanced transmission from input to output." the XLR connections are said to be the balanced connections.

The Thorens TD-1601 manual is vague, but it does say that is has "Balanced XLR and Unbalanced RCA outputs." So, I think it is safe to assume that if I want balanced output, that I need to use XLR output. There is no "switch".

The online Prospectus for the TD-1600 and TD-1601 goes on to say..."Especially when using an MC pick-up, the balanced XLR output, with which both models are equipped, can then bring its advantages to bear."

It is possible that only a MC cartridge can produce balanced output? ...or can benefit from a balanced connection?  My newly purchased cartridge (Nagaoka MP-200) is technically a Moving Iron (MI) cartridge, so is it capable of balanced output?? The Nagaoka is still sealed in its box, and it if is not capable of balanced output, perhaps I should return it or sell it (I got a really good deal.)?

Parasound Z-Phono : Phono Preamp

Step up your game in the phono amp.

More important that the cable connection concern.

@tablejockey, thanks, I actually own a z-phono and have it in use. I remain intrigued by Balanced/XLR and the Skoll.

Now studying if the TD-1601>Nagoaka MP-200>Schitt Skoll>Yamaha A-S3200 Balanced input will preserve the balanced signal end-to-end. So far, my research suggests it does.  Any comments here?

But still, the existing question, is the extra "balanced" effort, complexity, and expense ($3k) worth it vs. unbalanced RCA to the zphono or Yamaha’s phono input.

"But still, the existing question, is the extra "balanced" effort, complexity, and expense ($3k) worth it vs. unbalanced RCA to the zphono or Yamaha’s phono input."

No!

The turntable itself is neither balanced or unbalanced, it is the cartridge that can either be wired balanced or unbalanced and it is my understanding that virtually all cartridges are capable of being wired balanced. If you use the XLR connectors on the Thorens you should be sending a balanced signal to the phono pre.

thank you @audiorusty, that is what think as well.

and thank you, @yogiboy, I guess I need help in justifying the extra expense. LOL.

" I guess I need help in justifying the extra expense."

You won’t get that here. You would be better off spendin’ your greenbacks on somthin’ else! An upgraded phono preamp is always a good place to start!

Yes, but he Nagaoka can be wired for balanced mode. 

@gemoody  For what it's worth, my Rega P8 only comes with RCA connectors from the TT.  Rega knows a thing or two about TTs but they obviously don't think balanced connectors from the TT to the phono preamp are important?  I do use all balanced cables from the phono pre onwards. 

Above should read ”yes, the Nagaoka can be wired for balanced operation”. As can nearly every cartridge except those that provide only a single common ground for both channels. IMO, at this level (given the OP’s system) it may not be worth the extra expense. This is in no way meant to denigrate the system.

I suggest looking for posts by 'Atmasphere', -Ralph was one of the first manufacturers to provide a 'true' Balanced design to audiophile equipment- which entails abiding by the AES 47 standards.

He often chimes in to Balanced/Unbalanced discussions. But, if he doesn't, then PM him. Honest, free advice from a really nice person.

Bob

The biggest difference you’ll experience is most likely using balanced from turntable to the phono amplifier. Since that has balanced outs as well I’d give the phono signal preference and use short RCA wiring from DAC to integrated and save the money.

OTOH, if you expect long runs from component to component, or are in an electrically noisy environment (like a high rise) or money is not object, then the XLR inputs for your CD and phono amp will make sense.

Honestly, given how delicate signals from a phono cartridge are I'm amazed more turntables and preamps don't have balanced inputs for them.  Of all source components in consumer gear, a phono cartridge to me seems to benefit the most from a differential input that is separate from the ground.

Right question, wrong reason. You need to find out for yourself if induced noise from unbalanced interconnects is objectionable to you or not. 
 

That aside, unbalanced (using one of the signal conductors as the signal ground for the other signal conductor) is not best practice. Take the way the headshell wiring brings both signal conductors for each channel through the tonearm tube that is grounded fo the phono stage chasssis (not the turntable chassis). Using shielded twisted pair preserves and extends the tonearm tube shielding all the way to the phono stage. 
 

Oh, and one more thing, phono cartridges produce a differential signal that is not referenced to any ground, so the signal is neither balanced nor unbalanced, but it works best with balanced interconnects. 

Here is some information from the pro world.

To tag onto  what @gdnrbob mentioned. I recently bought gear that is truly fully balanced. This is the best solution for when you need to run long cables. The mfg. (Atma-Sphere) also suggested I convert my Rega P6 turntable from RCA to fully balanced. I did it it and it’s awesome- quiet and sounds great! I have their tube pre with tube phono stage and class d mono blocks and loving it more every day! In case you haven’t already, I suggest you read up on the posts from Ralph @atmasphere. He has lots of good posts that explain the interesting tech side of truly balanced vs just XLR and not actually balanced.

Used to have a fully balanced system, IMO balanced removes some of the noise that gets in the way of the music. Highly recommended. And don't let anyone tell you it's only about long cables. True or floating balanced, both work

I have a balanced connection from my VPI Titan to my Van den Hul Grail SE.  In fact, my entire system is true balanced and connected with XLR.  I’ll never go back voluntarily.

An MC cartridge /tone arm set up wired balanced (technically called “floating”) has consistently less noise, even over a short span.  There are side-by-side tests by Pro-Ject (admittedly pushing its balanced units) that show this, over a short 1 M distance.  You cancel out that first bit of noise.

To me, the most important signal to reduce noise is the phono stage.  It’s the weakest and most vulnerable connection.  Any noise there is merely amplified as you go along.

There is a reason why people say the most critical links in your system are your speakers and your cartridge.  Neither is the place to skimp.

So my strong recommendation is to go for it.

The reason to minimize noise at the phono stage is because that stage is called upon to produce the most gain, by far, of any element in the chain. High gain requirement brings the problem of noise to the fore. I have one system that is fully balanced (using Atma-sphere components) front to back, and a second system that is SE all the way. Both require long ICs between preamp and amps. Both are acceptable in terms of S to N. I’d say the balanced mode is not so much quieter as it is completely trouble free in terms of noise. Never a faint hum or a buzz. The SE system will have an occasional hiccup.

I have the Rose rs150b connected to my amp with unbalanced rca connectors and I haven't once thought to myself that I could make it sound better. Which could free up the one unbalanced you have for your phono but if your heart is set on connecting with balanced, don't compromise. By the way, you are going to love the radio part of the rose as you get internet radio from all over the world and can pick which genre you like to listen to.

What balanced gets you, mostly, with phono is a few db of gain. So if you had a very low output cartridge you might find some benefit in going balanced. Also, if you're cable run was very long, like more than 12 or 15 ft you may find significant benefit. Otherwise there's very little. I run a fairly high end analog source and it's all single ended. Look at so much of the super high end Japanese stuff too like shindo. It's all single ended. There will be lots of controversy and disagreement here but my experience is no need for balanced. 

I say, residential, short runs: no advantage, 

I do like that XLR connectors lock in place, but I changed to locking rca's to solve that.

extra gain: I did get a SMALL amount of gain out of my Sony xa5400 CD player's XLR compared to it's rca out, but certainly not enough to matter. No audible difference.

typically, like a DAC, wiser to keep phono stage separate for potential change.

In my case my vintage McIntosh mx110z tube tuner/preamp has a wonderful sounding MM phono eq built in (two inputs). I run my tonearms thru a SUT to the mx110z's MM input. I never think about changing to something else. If it blew up, I would get another without bothering to compare. Friends bring their phono stages here to compare with it. My office, for simplicity, I use the built-in MM/MC in my little Luxman, sounds darn good but never compared it to the mx110z.

Features:

you mentioned bigger meters. They will be fun for a week or two, then they might be bothersome, make sure you can turn their lights off or out of circuit.

check the hidden features, you need to read the manual to find things they don't tell you about, like remote balance .... and, check the buttons on the remotes. Many high end makers don't even show the remote. My Cayin remote is solid aluminum, very nice to look and feel/use, much preferred to boring plastic remote, you use them every time you listen. 

I've never run into a home situation where line level XLR reduced noise... but I have been in some shows in hotels where noise pickup was almosts unavoidable with RCA. 

Due to the low signal level and high gain needed by cartridges I would not be surprised if things were different, not to mention the number of ground loop issues I've experienced/seen on turntables which vanish using balanced inputs.

Want to be clear that the balanced line level connections are not the same electrically as for a phono stage, so I would assess XLR noise issues differently for a turntable as for, say a CD player.

I use balanced everywhere in my system except from TT to phono preamp since the VPI Classic 1 and PS Audio Stellar do not offer it. I do notice a bit higher gain with balanced connections so it would make sense that it may be helpful with extremely low output mc cartridges. However my Lyra Kleos at 0.5 mV does not qualify. In fact it sounds better on the Stellar low gain setting than the recommended medium one, hence balanced may be a detriment in my specific setup. 

Baylinor, The VPI Classic being a tt certainly has nothing to do with the balanced vs SE distinction. So I assume you mean to say that the VPI tonearm is not wired for a balanced connection. But I’d guess it most certainly is. It probably offers separate hot and ground for each channel in SE mode, plus a ground wire probably attached to the tonearm body, 5 wires in total. All you would have to do is remove the RCA plugs, and replace them with XLRs, where hot goes to pin2 on the XLR, ground (now negative phase) goes to pin3, and the ground wire to pin1. but yes, you would also need a balanced phono stage. The PS Audio Stellar is by reputation so good that maybe you need not bother. And it does have balanced outputs.

@lewm 

I thank you for your detailed description of an unbalanced to balanced conversion for a tonearm. Something to keep in my files.

@baylinor 

VPI actually sells a ready made balanced connection in its accessories.  
 

$500 with cardis wiring and connections.  It’s on the website.

Two screws and five wires.  Plug in.

OP here. Lots of good information. Some takeaways:

If I went with the cheaper amp, and only one balanced connection, it might be better used on the TT versus the streamer/DAC.

Will be up to me to know whether to spend the extra dough. I feel like I’d be happier, longer, with A-S3200.

I will need to be patient for a good used deal to come up.

thanks for all the good, helpful input. 

RCA single ended is just as good  as balanced xlr unless your running long spans of cable 

Your not.  Your probably running one meter so no you do not need 

Xlr connections. Get a Great pair of single ended interconnects and forget about it

Good luck Willy-T

@davetheoilguy 

That's even easier, saw it on their website, cool setup. Thanks for the info. However the combo of my Lyra Kleos and Stellar phono stage as stated earlier makes it very unlikely I will ever go that route. I like my system as is and am winding down on the many upgrades and tweaks done over the last 4 years in my house of stereo. I really enjoy spending most of my time listening to music now instead of trying to improve the sound.

gemoody-

my comment was stepping up from your existing phono amp.

If you're playing the long game-$2K+ will get something that will take advantage of future table/cart changes.

@tablejockey  thanks, I appreciate your attention to this thread.  

I do have a zphono, personally, I cannot hear a difference between it and the onboard pre in my current integrated.  The zphono is a nice piece, for sure.  I have been reading about the new Schitt Skoll Phono Pre, and aside from its fully balanced function, I am impressed its capabilities with the measured reviews.  Probably where I will start.  Open to comments on it.

What balanced gets you, mostly, with phono is a few db of gain.

I say, residential, short runs: no advantage, 

RCA single ended is just as good  as balanced xlr unless your running long spans of cable 

@willy-t , @elliottbnewcombjr , @rmdmoore , If I can straighten some things out here:

You don't get any more gain. That only happens with active outputs that don't support the balanced standard, AES48. When you run a cartridge balanced, it supports the standard. So no increase in gain.

For home use, the advantage is that a properly set up balanced line will minimize the 'sound' of the cable. If you've ever auditioned cables and heard a difference, that's what I'm talking about. The tonearm cable is the best place to really get that right; no matter how good the rest of your system is, it can't make up for colorations and loss from the tonearm cable. Even if the cable is only 1 meter, you still get a benefit as opposed to an RCA cable. Keep in mind the cartridge is a balanced source to begin with.

@atmasphere 

1++

Cartridges, with only a few exceptions are balance devices. For the best sound (no sound of their own), tonearm cables and interconnects should be balanced. This is mandatory for long runs. With tonearms the ground is isolated in a fifth wire, so RCAs can be balanced also, it is up to the manufacturer of the phono stage whether or not it is operated truly balanced. When we use XLRs we leave pin #1 blank.  

@gemoody 

Great choice of turntable. You may have to add some weight to the tonearm for the MP 200 which is on the stiff side. Soundsmith sells a set of graded cartridge screws that are great for tuning resonance. You want it down by 8 Hz. You might even be able to go lower. You can get the real compliance with a test record. the HIFi News record seems to be the most popular. 

atmasphere

You don’t get any more gain. That only happens with active outputs that don’t support the balanced standard, AES48. When you run a cartridge balanced, it supports the standard. So no increase in gain.

That is not quite accurate. It would be true if all balanced components supported the AES48 standard but - as you well know - many do not. As an example, Audio Research has many differentially balanced amps and preamps and they do not support AES48. Yet these designs still offer advantages over single-ended designs, as explained by Wikipedia:

"The primary advantage of the balanced line format is good rejection of common-mode noise and interference when fed to a differential device such as a transformer or differential amplifier.

It’s a simple fact that designs such as the excellent ARC products will yield 6 db greater gain when run in balanced mode. Or, if your prefer to look at it another way, they yield a 6 dB improvement in S/N. That can make a big difference, especially in something such as a phono preamp.

Ralph, I know that you understand all of this. But notwithstanding your fine trademarked and patented products, there are many other excellent balanced audio components on the market. You muddy the waters when you mistakenly claim they aren’t balanced. Here’s the spec on my ARC preamp, straight from the manufacturer:

REF5 SE: Main output: 12dB Balanced output, 6dB SE output.

I  like to say “all other things being equal” (same cartridge, same phono stage, same everything downstream) a balanced connection will get you 6db compared to an SE connection of all the same components.. usually this comparison is not actually feasible.

@atmasphere THANKS.  Great tip on the SS cartridge screws.  Compliance is an advanced concept for many of us.  

Does anyone have experience with the new Schitt Skoll? Good reviews.

And again, thanks everyone, this thread has been very helpful.

This discussion has gone off-topic. It is supposed to be about the virtues of balanced, differential interconnects vs single-ended. Yes, much of it applies to other interconnects, but this discussion is about the interconnects between the turntable’s tonearm and the phono stage. 

OP here. I personally don’t perceive the thread off-topic. With all due respect, this thread’s applied intention is to help a fellow audiophile with a complex (to him) technical scenario & purchasing decision. While it may have broadened, as the OP, I have leaned much, and am open to the other considerations that have arisen. My true curiosity is to achieve the best sound, and in my case, there is much to consider and study. I appreciate the community’s willingness to apply their experience and time & energy.

@bigtwin

Here’s a video in case you ever want to convert your Rega:

@veerossi   Interesting video.  Thanks.

Sleepwalker, I hope you get the salient point that ICs per se count for nothing if the phono stage (in this instance) is not capable of balanced operation. Therefore you can’t have one without the other. These days there are components that provide XLR inputs but do not treat the signal in balanced mode. 

that Rega video,

converting factory 'solid' rca's to 'quite delicate' XLR seems to me a fine example of stubborn or obsessive absurdity. 

You muddy the waters when you mistakenly claim they aren’t balanced.

@cleeds  I've not once anywhere on the web made the claim as you suggest above. I think you misunderstood something, since what I posted previously did not contradict this statement of yours:

It’s a simple fact that designs such as the excellent ARC products will yield 6 db greater gain when run in balanced mode.

My comment was regarding a phono cartridge. So let's examine that and you'll see I was right. Let's start with the single-ended connection: the output of the cartridge is applied to the input of the phono section and ground. The total output of the cartridge might be 0.5mV. Now if you apply that same cartridge to a balanced phono input, the output of the cartridge is unchanged- its still 0.5mV. So there is no '6dB increase in output' of the cartridge- it is in fact exactly the same.

As I mentioned in my post, at the output of a balanced preamp that does not support AES48, there can be a 6dB in the apparent increase in gain if that output is connected to a balanced amp as opposed to single-ended. That is because a non-compliant balanced circuit simply has two single-ended outputs, one out of phase with the other. So if you use one and get a Volt out of it, if you use both you get 2 Volts which is a 6dB increase.

If the circuit supported AES48 then neither output references ground- they reference each other (like you see at the output of a phono cartridge). Its worth noting that this means that to drive balanced lines correctly (IOW to winnow all the benefits of the technology, such as interconnect cable artifact immunity and immunity to ground loops) what ever is driving the balanced line has to be floating source.

You don't have to do it that way of course but if you do it gets better.

@gemoody The cartridge screws was a tip from @mijostyn, not me.

@elliottbnewcombjr That is a bit odd- XLRs are a lot more rugged than RCAs.

Oh, and one more thing, phono cartridges produce a differential signal that is not referenced to any ground

@sleepwalker65 Actually this is the literal definition of a balanced source. So the output of a phono cartridge or tape head is inherently balanced.

atmasphere

I've not once anywhere on the web made the claim as you suggest above ...

Here is what you wrote:

When you run a cartridge balanced, it supports the standard. So no increase in gain.

If you run a cartridge "balanced" (technically, it's floating) into a differentially balanced phono preamp such as an ARC Ref Phono 2SE, you will have 6 dB more gain in balanced mode than unbalanced.

For home use, the advantage is that a properly set up balanced line will minimize the 'sound' of the cable.

That's is your opinion and I respect it. But many others think the advantage is:

... good rejection of common-mode noise and interference ...

... as noted in the Wikipedia link I previously provided.

... the output of a balanced preamp that does not support AES48, there can be a 6dB in the apparent increase in gain ...

That is misleading because it's not an "apparent" increase in gain. It's a genuine, specified, measurable increase in gain. Or, if your prefer to look at it another way, it's a 6 dB improvement in S/N.

Ralph @atmasphere, there's no question that you're expert and manufacture fine products, many protected by your trademarked and patented circuits. But there's more than one way to execute balanced circuits, and you're obviously prejudiced against those who take a different approach.

@gemoody 

Don't forget the test record!