There are about 40 videos on utube of Nelson Pass discussing amplifier designs. He's very generous with information and one of the kindest humans. If you're interested, a good place to start would be interviews by Steve Guttenberg and Pass. If you dig a little deeper you'll find some videos of Pass doing design seminars with the DIY community. I thought these seminars were very interesting and I learned some things about various transistors, use of feedback, input stages, output stages, and lots of nerdy subjects.
If you have a minute....I need ideas in that price range...+/- $$. Thanks!
@southofdallasThere are class D amps out there now that are every bit as musical as the amps in your original post. Less heat too, and less cost as well.
I really, really enjoy the sound of my Musical Fidelity A1-2008. It is a class a amp, 35 wpc. Gets hot as hell in the summer here in Sin City though. Out of production but MF recently released a 2023 or 4 version of that amp...
I compare my 2008 version amp very favorably to my 25 wpc OTL Tube amp which is a very transparent amp with midrange to die for...
you can google what highly sensitive is before you comment
I don’t need google to tell me that 89 db speakers with a minimum 4 ohm load is not considered highly efficient....
BTW, try the Parsifals with an SET and get back to me on how that works out for you. I actually owned the speakers so maybe I know a little more about them than you do.
@ozzy62I got the message. I agree with you. This speakers are not the sensitive kind.... Maybe the A-48 is the minimum. I always try to buy amps that double the power at half the impedance (BIG power supplies). In my experience they sound best, have more "air" and dynamics. I am just trying to avoid Mark Levinson this time...too much "Luxury" audio for my taste / wallet.
When I first got them I had a 300B amp that I immediately sold because I knew that wouldn't work. I borrowed a friends 60 wpc CJ amp and it sounded ok at low volume, but fell apart when goosed a little. I then bought a pair of 150 wpc Tsakaridis Apollo KT120 monos. This was much better. But the best I heard the Parsifals was using an Smc heavily modified DNA 0.5 (now GT-24 version). The high current of this amp was great with the speakers.
@southofdallasSomething to consider: In most rooms if you need more than 100 Watts to make the speaker fly, the speaker is likely impractical. This is for the simple fact that, to make the speaker sound twice as loud you'll need 10x more power; in this case 1000 Watts.
Its much easier to build a lower power amp that can sound like real music.
You are confusing facts with your opinion.
But you can just ignore my comments that would serve us best.
No, I'd really rather not ignore your comments. I find them perplexing and amusing all at the same time. This is a speaker that you have no direct experience with. And obviously your reading comprehension isn't very good either.
Why don't you tell me how a speaker with such technical specifications as the Verity Audio Parsifal Ovation can qualify as "highly sensitive".
@atmasphereIt's not so much high volume I'm after but dynamics. I think too that an amp with around 100W and a good power supply is enough. I had a ML No.331 for some time and it was 100W and 100Kg (110 lbs). BIG power supply.
I listen to a lot of classical music live so I know what it should sound like. The thing I miss the most is often dynamics an air.
you can grow a beard waiting. Go back into your dive bar, find someone else to pick a fight with. You attacked me personally several times without me giving you any reason, I am not playing with bullies.
Done with this conversation, if you can't ignore it, I sure will.
You have extolled some information that has no merit and now you say you won't (I say you can't) back it up. You were the one who challenged my post regarding the sensitivity of this speaker. I gave you facts to validate that assertion and you continue to disagree. You told me it's just my opinion and the facts prove otherwise.
It’s not so much high volume I’m after but dynamics.
@southofdallasProper ’dynamics’ should arise from the signal and nothing else. Quite often amps can generate higher ordered harmonics which the uses to sense sound pressure, so just as often these harmonics are mistaken for ’dynamics’. So you can see that in many audiophile conversations you can replace the word ’dynamics’ with ’distortion’ and not change the meaning of the conversation.
I’ve found (using LPs and CDs I recorded personally) that the mark of the best systems is that of a relaxed, effortless presentation even at higher volume levels.
You don't need great power for that; just finesse.
I’ve had significant seat time w great musical happiness with subject speakers and a variety of Ayre amplifiers…. still a great company after CH passing. Ariel is agreat engineer…with ears
I drove mine with a few different amps, the Luxman M800 was probably the most solid with them. That was 60/120. The 590 was okay the 550AXII for low levels. You need to hear a few amps and align with your preferences and circumstances. I’ve had a few Ayre amps, dealer friend demos but liked the Luxman better.
One great sounding combination I heard them with was the Audio Research Ref 110 with Ref 3 preamp.
As for lighter load, I would guess that the impedance curve on these isn’t horrible, but agree with Ozzy you wouldn’t call them high efficiency. I owned the Otello’s, much easier to drive with 93db eff I think. I’d say they Otello's are on the lower side of higher efficiency at best. Drove those great with 30 wpc tubes.
@atmasphere Relaxed, yes (laid back, no) effortless presentation is probably what I call "air" in the music, as in a big concert hall. "even at higher volume levels"...then you need dynamics, otherwise it becomes a flat/compressed presentation. I don't now about the tricks with distortion, you have to talk to Nelson about that ;). The best amps I ever heard were BIG Audio Research monoblocks and BIG pass Labs, talk about effortless! But I can´t afford such a system....That's why I listen to live music whenever I can.....after all: it's the real thing!
@southofdallasThis is exactly why its a good idea to use speakers that are easy to drive. You don't have to sacrifice any resolution to have easy to drive speakers. Lower efficiency speakers tend to have something called 'thermal compression' which is caused by heating of the voice coils. The higher the efficiency of the speaker the less compression you get.
When a slightly lower power amp is driving higher efficiency/easy to drive speakers you find you can get the same effortless quality.
I always associated 'air' with ease and space in the highs. I've not heard of it used in the context that you do; probably a topic for another thread.
@atmasphere"I always associated 'air' with ease and space in the highs. I've not heard of it used in the context that you do; probably a topic for another thread. "
Pretend yo are in the Berliner Philharmonic concert hall....you listen to a big orchestra playing very powerful music, the volume is high but never compressed, it is just floating around (not only the highs). No speakers in this world can do that but our ears together with our brain can let us imagine that we are there when we listen at home. Nice....
Well, I do like the sound of my 89dB speakers so they stay for now.
I don't know that hall but I've played in a number of them here in Minnesota (bass in several orchestras so O'Shaughnessy, Orchestra Hall and the Ordway). I know what you're talking about but I'd never have thought to call that 'air'.
@southofdallasI've recorded stuff in the same halls I've played in. You get a sense of the hall and I wanted that in the recording. Each hall has a different sound to it so I describe that as the ambient signature. So yes, the ability to express that seems to fit with those terms (space, scale, spaciousness).
I have not heard either the Accuphase or the XA-25, but I have a Pass 250.8 in my system and I think that it is a great and powerful amp that drives my Wilson Sabrina X's perfectly. Paired with a good tube pre (I have an ARC REF 6), its a great combo.
@southofdallas I have Charney Audio MaestroX speakers with AER-BD3B single drivers. The drivers are very revealing and the Accuphase gets everything right.
The Parasound JC5 amp is quite neutral and has far more power than you'll ever need. Great sound, and it can absolutely drive your speakers. It's said that it would cost twice it's price had they built them in the US.
I have owned two examples of the XA25 and tried them with 5 different speakers. In a medium/large room, I concluded the Pass really need be paired with speakers of a true 90dB sensitivity at minimum. The XA25 is one of those amps that sounds great at most listening levels but for those times you want to push it, there isn’t much headroom. The compression kicks in quite suddenly.
An amp I recently acquired that sounds very similar but with much better headroom is the Ayre V-5XE. You might come across reports that this amp is “light in the bass,” but that hasn’t been my experience. I suspect those anecdotes might have arose from a speaker being wired out of phase, which is an easy mistake to make with the mirrored configuration of their binding posts. It is not a bass monster like some Parasound amps, but it’s certainly no lighter in the bass than the XA25.
All that said, I disagree that the Pass sound is so “unique” that it must be auditioned first, especially with the XA25. If operated well within its limits, with efficient speakers, the XA25 produces end-game sound quality and engagement.
I owned Pass, Accuphase, and Audio Research amplifiers and finally settled for the Ypsilon Phaethon.
These are stellar sounding (harmonious, well defined and capable) amplifiers and their after sales device is incredibly good.
The amp has a discrete volume control with (I believe) 1bB steps. I am perfectly happy with that, but this is a point of consideration. I own the “normal” version of the Phaethon whith a new price of around €. 18.000,-.
I am confident the you will not regret trying one of these beauties before you make a final decision.
I have the Luxman MQ-88uC power amp. I got it used for about $3000, I changed to nos tubes. If you like a LUSH accurate amp try get one form Mucic Direct and try it out. It's 25 WPC and will easily drive 89 sensitivity . I have used it with Monitor audio, Triangle and KEF speakers. No issues,
@blue-magooMan!....those Luxman MQ-88uC look good. And they seem to have a direct input that removes the level control from the circuit. Nice! What kind of speakers do you use with them?
I have a room your size, with Vandersteen 2CEs and Pass X150s. I would at least consider the 150 series, new or used. Capacity to drive with most of your listening in Class A. I heard a Cornwall IVs with low-watt tubes and I preferred my setup.
+++++ Accuphase A48 great if not greatest <50W/ch SS A class amp! advantage: no maintenance needed for few decades!
+++++ Luxman MQ-88uC lil less peak power headroom than A48, amazing dynamic range, very low noise floor for tubes, very gentle tubes use conditions to ensure long ride without replacing tubes etc.!
@southofdallasI have A48 and P4500.. A48 is better for mid <50W peak power, very smooth/warm, P4500 is excellent for higher volume sounds <150W, rock etc.. P4500 is basically not different from A48 below 5W power.
Than you @westcoastaudiophile! I listen most to jazz and classical music, I think the new A48S 2x50W is at the top of the list.....unless I win the lottery, then it's the A80.
If I understand it correctly: the Accuphase class-A is a push-pull amp, the same as PASS LABS. Do they leave class-A at some level? How much class-A power does the A-48 deliver before drifting into AB?
If I understand it correctly: the Accuphase class-A is a push-pull amp, the same as PASS LABS. Do they leave class-A at some level? How much class-A power does the A-48 deliver before drifting into AB?
@southofdallasThis isn't a concern. If a class AB amp had an audible aspect where you could tell it was going into B mode, it literally would not be on your list.
If the amp is competent, the class of operation isn't important. The competence of the amp is! That is why there are class D amps that would do well on your list as well.
@atmasphereIt's impossible to find an Atmasphere Class-D amp to test where I live.... sorry. I really would like to test them at home with my speakers.
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