Paypal...buyer protection fees didnt help me

Sorry to hear about your troubles @missioncoonery 

Can you ar least inform other Agon members who shafted you so we all can avoid a similar situation?

File a complaint with U.S.A.M.!

Did you use a credit card?

File a complaint with Visa, Amex, MC.

If you used a debit card you have protections there also. 

Sorry to hear of your troubles. 

@missioncoonery ,

When did this all happen? Do you have any time left?

Not sure where you are located, but I would go on Audiosciencereview and DIYAudio and ask if there is anyone locally with equipment who could run a simple distortion test.  If it is audible, then the distortion is probably high enough to see on an oscilloscope. Whatever test is done, just document it, and make it look like a report. The people at Paypal are unlikely to reject as long as there is sufficient detail and even if they do, your credit card company would appreciate the information w.r.t. filing a claim.

Paragraphs are your friend…

The PP case is over,it is closed.I wasn't able to get the 100 pound amp packed ,to the shipper which is an hour drive away,shipped to the west coast, analyzed by the manufactures service dept.,shipped back and submit the report to PP in the alotted time frame.

I'd say the time delay hurt your case big time. Warning to others to place new component in system immediately, I always do this, may wait an hour or two for new component to settle.

Maybe so ,maybe not.....but I had no help until the weekend came.I filed within a window that should not have been an issue.An almost 7 grand amp should work correctly and it didnt.If this had been bought on Ebay there would have been no questions asked...send it back and get a refund.PayPal sucks in my opinion,the buyer protection sure didn't help me.

Two questions were already asked but not answered. Who was the seller, and how did you pay, as you may be able to get a refund through them.

Sorry for your terrible experience.

The transaction was not on this site so pointing fingers is not necessary here..I will file the appropriate feedback on USAM..I paid through PayPal which is attached to my bank account.

Thanks, but it would have been useful to know who the offender was, but maybe now isn't the right time.

I would think the party to determine whether the unit was defective would be a repair technician. 

This is the 1st time that I heard PayPal was for the seller, 99.9999% of the time PP will side with the buyer.

The 1st issue is on your shoulders because you waited 1 week to do anything and this put you in a bind.

Say I am the seller, how do I know that you didn't drop the unit to cause the damage? How do I know it it got dropped in shipping? There are a lot of variables when buying online from 3rd parties. Dealing with PP as the seller, I demand using PPF&F, and as a buyer, I demand using the normal PP with buyer protection. For years, I only buy and sell with a local buyer and/or seller, much easier

you have my empathy, it’s a bummer. 100 lb amp is a beast, it’s unfortunate someone wasn’t lined up to help sooner. going forward, fund your paypal account with your best credit card (not a bank), then you have another layer. basic function and every feature, new or used needs to be messed with so you don’t find out later something you could have known.

I hurt my back, been using a walker for a week, still not picking anything up. I came home from the chiropractor, and fedex had left a pair of AR2ax's against my garage door. door flips out, so couldn't even open the door. I realized, gotta move em, get em inside, open em up, hook em up and make sure all drivers are good. Luckily Jim, a new friend I met here on Audiogon was here, so he got them in and out of the boxes.

Agree with SNS.  Move quickly.  a claim a week or more later is always suspeicious.  I sold an amp.  2 weeks later they guy messages me that it won't power up.  He had messaged me when he got it and said he would put it in service the next day so I was immediately suspicious.   Not a paypal deal but they would be suspicious too.

Turned out to be operator error and I was able to help him figure it out.  I'm only posting this because the 2 week delay make me immediately suspicious.  Turns out he's 80 and needed help to move it.  

So if you need help, have it lined up when the amp gets there.

Paypal would have stood by you if it was a black and white issue such as "doesn't work".  Your claim is a probably interpreted by paypal as an opinion that it works but doesn't sound right.  Frame your claim in the correct words.

Jerry

@missioncoonery 

So sorry to hear!  After hearing your story and a few others, I’m thinking I’m through buying from individuals.

JD

  If waiting 14 days to file with PP makes me suspect then so be it but i find it rather ridiculous to suggest that. I could have filed that Sunday when we first hooked it up.I wanted to give the seller and the amp its due diligence before screaming which is what I did.Keep in mind what PP requested was'nt simply getting some self employed guy  working in his garage to look at it,they requested a detailed printed form from an authorized repair facility..and im in no where mid west,I dont even have a movie theater in my town.The 2 facilities within several driving hours of me both said no.It wasnt as simple as putting a stamp on the crate and dropping it in the mail box..It had to go 2200 miles one way,inspected and returned all within a week.As a long time power seller on Ebay I know they give buyers minimum 30 days to return anything for any reason.It was'nt buyers remorse with me,the amp has an issue and i paid for that protection if some thing was wrong reguardless if it was dropped,kicked,punted in shipping,the reason is really irrelevant to me.I paid for a "described as mint unit" with hard earned funds.I paid for that buyer protection and PP didnt not cover me ..Ill get the unit going again and hopefully enjoy what I hear but i will say this....My used gear buying days are about over with.thanks

Well, we're all on your side, all sounds reasonable to us. But paypal and/or person you purchased from not us. Your entire story could just be a story as far as they know. I'd be just like Carlsbad if someone waited 14 days to tell me something I sold suddenly wasn't working correctly. I'd assume  component was operating correctly upon receipt, something went wrong in those intervening days, operator error or ? Now, they may relate a story such as yours, hard to say if I'd believe or not, telephone conversation would help in this determination.

The thing is we don't know if seller knew beforehand or damage occurred in transit? Another good reason to develop personal dialogue with person doing transaction with, many won't conduct transaction without prior telephone conversation.

@missioncoonery , this is right on the Paypal site:

You also have the option of self filing in small claims. Usually just the threat is enough. You also have the ability to file a claim against Paypal itself.

This is the wording in their agreement,

Step 3: Respond to PayPal’s requests for documentation or other information, after you, the seller or PayPal escalates your dispute to a claim for reimbursement. PayPal may require you to provide receipts, third party evaluations, police reports or other documents that PayPal specifies. You must respond to these requests in a timely manner as requested in our correspondence with you.

As we are still working in an economy severely affected by the pandemic, what the court considers as a "timely matter" is likely to be much different from what Paypal tries to enforce on you. As they have not put explicit time limits in advance that I can tell, then you will have a case based solely on this.

They also define 3rd party evaluations. An authorized repair facility is a 3rd party w.r.t. you and the seller, but I think, again given the force majeur of a pandemic, that the court may also see insisting on specific 3rd parties and not someone simply skilled and qualified, as unjustifiably limiting. Again, as they have not defined that well in advance, it works to your favor in court.

As noted, there is still the credit card to fall back on if too late. This often comes down to being the squeaky wheel. At a start, I would still see if there is a kind repair technician or engineer somewhere near you who can take a basic measurement. This will help you with your credit card filing, and if you file small claims.

For all those complaining that you took too long to file, I will remind them that by the Paypal agreement you have 180 days.

He didn't take too long to file by the book, the delay only brings other possible issues into play.

I'd also continue to pursue a better outcome, a local tech would have been my first choice right from beginning. But then this wouldn't be priority item with already swamped tech, likely no luck here. I'd go back to manufacturer, perhaps their tech could say how damaged occurred, just don't think paypal will take buyers word over sellers word in this particular case. Sure seller claiming unit functioning correctly when shipped, makes shipper libel, good luck with that!

Personally I think it's all about money/ PP profit in this transaction.Their stock is  down what 30%. the last time I checked.If  this was a $100 .00 transaction there would not be any of this jumping through hoops.Who cares at 4 bucks fee...but I paid over 200.00 in buyer protection fees..Hard to give that back when your company is floundering. 

Unfortunately there is little or nothing you can do at this point except send it in and pay for the repair. I would contact the company first and explain what happened, they might just give you a break, a discount, even free, a good company should at least do something to help.

I have been on Ebay and PP since they started and out of tens of thousands of transactions only had 2 issues, both buyers, both lied, PP sided with them but at least both were around $500, not a bad track record considering many millions in transactions. BUT, after seeing the rise in fraud, everywhere, I now only accept F&F payments unless I know the other party or they have a well established track record. For purchases I only deal with those willing to talk to me on the phone or meet in person then also check their track record.

Lesson for us all, if having something delivered you need help with have them there when it arrives, open the package before even taking it inside if a difficult task, if at all damaged have the driver there when opened as well, take pics as you go. If OK, take in and test immediately. It only takes a few minutes using input cables to test the channels and to insure the issue is in the new device. Of course the speaker cable swap works as well so can be the first step then to verify and confirm do the input test.

Rick

By company I mean the actual manf, repair shops far less likely to help you out.

Hello, you have not mentioned if you have spoken to anyone at paypal. You need to call PayPal and ask to speak with a supervisor and explain the situation to them. That is your last and final bet. Whatever you do - do not be aggressive with them! Shed a few tears and make it a sob story!

Practice empathy. The OP stated he's retired and in his 60's. Not everyone is savvy with technology, especially the generation that was not raised with work (or home) PC's and smart phones

Paragraphs are your friend…

Paypal is a rip-off ill pass.

Yes,I spoke with PP several times..A phone call was the first thing I did followed up with several others.Its a dead end and game over with getting satisfaction from them.

Let me clarify -  you can "appeal" a claim decision - my suggestion is to do this with a "live" person rather that online. Paypal has a "dispute resolution" / "Claims" department (not sure the exact name) that is US based and the trick is to try and  get connected to them directly. The regular CS is usually based overseas and reads from a script.

You should call them and insist on speaking with someone in the "Claims" dept - if you do not succeed at first - try,try try again..!

If you do end up speaking to the right person, make it a sob story and do not in any way suggest that they are trying to cheat you - yours truly speaks from experience!

There is a also a paypal user forum - here is a link for the "disputes" thread:

www.paypal-community.com/t5/Disputes-and-Limitations/bd-p/5

I can understand your anger and frustration but this has nothing to do with predatory behavior on part of paypal. CS / Support has been automated to a ridiculous extent at most companies that a Live person rarely gets involved unless the matter escalates. A lot of us have learnt the hard way that "AI' in not very "I" and can be very "A" most of the time.

As a general rule (and for future reference) Paypal Buyers Protection claim is more likely to be successful if you bought from a known merchant or intermediary (like ebay) as opposed to a person to person transaction for the simple reason that a P to P claim is more susceptible to misuse / fraud.

Good luck and let us know how it plays out.

Cheers!

Good advice srinisr!

Can you use a PayPal friends and family payment to buy things from strangers? 


Yes, but you really, really shouldn’t — and not just because it’s against PayPal’s user agreement.

The lack of fee makes it a tempting option for sellers to use instead of ‘goods and services,’ and you may be offered a discount on the agreed amount if you acquiesce. In theory that sounds great. You pay less, and the seller takes more — what’s not to like? 

Well, scammers can use this approach to take the money and run, knowing that you’ll have no recourse to open a fraud claim with PayPal. If you sign off someone as a friend or family member, PayPal reasons, then you’re vouching for the contact and therefore you’re not entitled to extra protections.

‘Goods and services’ payments are covered by PayPal Purchase Protection. Friends and family payments are not. While a seller asking you to use ‘friends and family’ may just be trying to save a few bucks (albeit in a slightly underhand way), it simply isn’t worth the risk: consider it a red flag and insist on using the ‘goods and services’ option or find someone else who will.

The friends and family option is typically used not for scamming buyers but to avoid IRS 1099 fillings and paying taxes...the paying with PP directly to get buyer protection obviously diesnt work hence this post.

@missioncoonery Based on my observations you're in a small minority, vast majority claim PP always on buyer's side. As others have mentioned and experienced, no real forensics undertaken by PP, most disputes resolved by algorithms.

I suppose I understand their finding for buyer in most cases, buyer happy, at least seller gets item returned to them. I've had two disputes as buyer with PP, won both cases without long delays.

The one thing I don't understand about your case is, I know seller cut off communications with you so you're distrust of him understandable. But how do you know damage wasn't caused by shipping? Did you talk about that possibility with seller? If not, I can more understand his intransigence, he may have perceived your initial contact as provocation.

Since seller won in what seems like rare case with PP, one has to assume he had documentation on his side, or a better story.

   Better story?...yea it worked when I sent it to him just fine,lol......My story isn't a story,it's the truth.There was no physical damage to the box or the unit so I assume his story should be it was distorting through one channel when I sent it.

   All I wanted was what I paid for, a working correctly int amp or  PP to  to do good on what I paid for and get my  funds back .There's no gray area here,no buyers remorse,no my wife is pissed and demanding I send it back....nothing but simply I got a unit that doesn't work properly and the buyers protection I paid for failed me.

Just because there is no exterior damage doesn't mean that something in the interior workings wasn't jogged loose.

Having it repaired may cost less than you think. Why not get an estimate?

Oooh....I've already stated its going to manufacture for repair.The point of this post was I shouldn't have to....

Sad story. A suggestion for others that worked for me. I bought a misrepresented used Sota turntable and paid via PayPal. I arranged for the seller to ship it directly to Sota for evaluation and potential upgrade recommendations. Sota was able to document that the condition wasn't as advertised. PayPal made good on my claim promptly. If a similar path is available on used gear you're considering, it might be worthwhile.

Kudos to Donna and the folks at Sota who supported my efforts to document and submit the timely claim. As karma often comes full circle, I instead bought a new table directly from Sota after the claim was settled. Cheers,

Spencer 

@missioncoonery Not saying you're not being truthful, just saying there may be high likelihood damage was incurred in shipping, in which case seller is not at fault. I'm surprised this possible issue hasn't been brought up in your statements thus far. I presume paypal and seller (if seller honest here) brought this up amongst themselves, if not with you.

Too bad you couldn't have worked out something with seller. I've had two issues as seller when things were damaged in shipment, both cases no outward appearance of damage on packaging materials so no shipping insurance coverage. In both cases I worked with buyers by my partial payment of repairs, maybe I was lucky in having such understandable buyers. This just to say shipping is tricky proposition, shippers pretty careless these days, overworked and under great stress, I see this every day at my family business.

Also, did this seller have large amount of feedback? I always check for this, will purchase from someone with little feedback, but only after telephone conversation.

   I talked directly with the seller before paying,he seemed OK but who can tell in one call...I'm confident there was no shipping damage,it was sent with an issue.The deal is this,regardless if it was damaged in shipping or not PP should have stood with me and inforced the return .There is no gray area here ,either I have buyer protection which is what I paid for or PP is a ripoff and charging fees for nothing  which is exactly what they did.

First, I have had good experiences with Pay Pal (with concert ticket issue not equipment)

Asfor audio equipment, I rarely deal with private individuals. I go with on line or brick and mortar sellers. Used, open box, factory refurbished or just on sale. Folks who deal in audio gear beyond selling a piece or two. Those who have a reputation.

If it costs me a bit (or even a lot) more the peace of mind is worth it.

Some say PayPal nearly always sides with the buyer.  I bought a pair of bike wheels that arrived in terrible shape.  Of course the seller had said they were in great shape.  The sellers pictures of the wheels looked normal, as the damage only showed upon close inspection.  It took me about 3 months to get PayPal to find in my favor.  Many calls and chat messages.  I eventually figured out that the wheels had been shipped multiple times prior to being sent to me and were damaged in shipping.

On another purchase of several pairs of orthotic insoles, I found later that they were counterfeit.  PayPal denied my claim because I didn’t find out that they were counterfeit until after their claim window closed.  I would never have known until I used them for a while.  They sided with an illegal seller.

@missioncoonery

Why are you wasting your time calling audio stores to do a bad amp channel verification? Just call up/use your local TV repair/warranty shop. Every city has them. And it will be 3x cheaper as well.

To Paypal an electronics shop that does warranty servicing for Samsung, LG e.t.c is just as legit as a high end audio dealer. Much more so infact.

Agisthos....obviously you did read my post or I wasn't explaining it correctly..PP requested not a verification it had an issue, they wanted a bench breakdown of its issues.Only way to provide that was to send it  to west coast and have the manufactures service department provide that.

The bench break down would have only been helpful to @missioncoonery  if manufacturer had determined issue existed prior to shipping. I doubt an undetermined cause would have changed things one iota.

@missioncoonery It seems no all is lost in end, even without successful outcome, you'll at least have working amp once repairs are completed. Perhaps you could ask manufacturer for some consideration on repair cost for bad experience?

As a retiree I now only buy things I can move around myself. No more 50 pound amps or floorstanding speakers. I also prefer to buy from dealers using a credit card rather than from private individuals. Both those changes help make it easier when something goes wrong.

I've already stated my empathy to OP, a damn shame PayPal failed him.

Reverb helped me on one disaster; PayPal saved me on Fraud. Thank goodness I did not 'send money'.

1. via reverb, a McIntosh MC2002 was not packed properly, (single box, only collapsible air bubbles inside with a 55 lb object moving about) arrived seriously damaged.

Seller had bought insurance from Reverb. Reverb covered seller 100%  (UPS certainly would have denied a damage claim based on improper packaging). Reverb contacted seller and offered me a full refund, or $300. credit, keep it. A tech I know wanted to fix it, so I took the credit, he bought it from me. Happy ending.

2. also Reverb. bought an mx110z in Spain. used Paypal thru Reverb (thus it was for 'goods' not friends and family, PayPal funded by my credit card. I suspected 'too true, might be fraud' but trusted my protection setup.

'Not Shipped', not a word from seller, zero response to my messages to seller. Requested refund thru Reverb (easy). Reverb could not get a response from seller and told me "make your claim thru PayPal because that is how you paid, (their contact info is ...., let us know if you need help with that") Filed an 'Item Not Received' with PayPal.

Now, even though Reverb still said 'not shipped', via PayPal, there was a tracking link, and a full FedEx history: Now I got worried, I've been thru that once before. Remember, Item was in Spain. purchased on the 28th, false shipping said left Pennsylvania, USA on the 29th .... went here, there, delivered (no signature).

Without any delay PayPal gave me a full refund. Couldn't have been easier, how lucky I am,

as OP showed, even proper coverage can fail you, and it is crazy how they can create these fraudulent shipping histories.

Why would you buy a used component from Spain Elliottt? They are known for fraudulent transactions almost as much as Nigeria.