If I upgrade the amp first, I might squeeze more out of my current speakers - which are not as bad —but will their awkward placement limit the improvement?
I reviewed Venere 2.5 and you should upgrade your speakers and do that first and then choose an amp that has sufficient power to drive them properly and synergize with them sonically. Your room warrants either floorstanders or monitors with at least one — and preferably two — subs. And yes, speaker placement is absolutely killing your performance. Don’t waste your money on better equipment if you plan on keeping the speakers on bookshelves and just continue to enjoy what you have. 95% of all good speakers will want at least a couple feet from the back wall to have sufficient room to breathe and fully open up and balance properly. Get the speakers right first — find the ones that really blow you away, and then everything else flows from there. The speakers are the only component that physically interacts with both your ears and your room, which is why it’s absolutely critical to get that really right. Your Node could continue to be very serviceable and much better (as a streamer only) if you add an external linear power supply from the likes of Teddy Pardo, SBooster, or LHY. If you’re using the DAC in the Node you’ll also need a better DAC to do your new system justice. If you share what improvements you’re looking for and what sound characteristics are most important to you, you’ll get some really good and targeted recommendations here. Just my $0.02 off the top FWIW, and best of luck. Incidentally, what electronics and speakers have you heard thus far that you really liked?
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I second soix's recommendation to start with speakers, then electronics. And speaker placement makes or breaks a good speaker. Good luck and enjoy.
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Thank you so much for the very insightful replies!
to your point @soix , I had the chance of listening to a pair of Devore o/baby and pair of Audio Note An/k both of which I liked a lot: big sound stage, very live feeling. For my room, a pair of AN/E would definitely fit
also listened to a few less “exotic” brand like KEF R2, Monitor audio, Sonus Faber: but none really impressed me like the AN and Devore.
electronic wise: Audio Note I Zero - despite being 8wpc and entry level - impressed me the most. The Oto also was amazing. Along solid states I liked Naim Xs3 > Rega Elicit while I felt Hegel 190 was too “thin”
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PS none of the sessions I did was with a sub, and honestly I did not feel the necessity (in particular, AN + Devore, AN + AN/K)
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I can recommend what I have; ASR Emitter 2 Exclusive amp and Quad 2912 ESL speakers. I would advise not to underestimate the value of having a great amp.
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Sounds like Audio Note is really striking a chord with you — that’s a good sign. Their speakers are very placement friendly and work well near walls, which may be a benefit in your situation I’m guessing. They also make excellent DACs if/when you get to that point. Best of luck.
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Start with the most important part your sourse record, or digital it’s the most important for Everything good or bad starts there once detail is lost it cannot
be made up downstream , your node is a big weak spot god for the streamer
signal upgrade your source a big upgrade l please remember 1/4 or less goes into
the component ,being an audio dealers and in sales over 30 years
that is the truth cables many times mark up from the mfg ,Thst is why spending more on a sourse and then speakers is monies well spent .
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@soix
+1
Start with speakers. Then orient addition purchases to support them. You want additional component to break in and drive your next purchase decision unless you are wealthy enough and sure enough of what you are doing to purchase the speakers and all the new components at one time.
But everything requires breaking. I am a big fan of Sonus Faber speakers. I am on my third set after exploring the world of planar for many decades. Very natural and musical. It can be really helpful to go listen to some really good systems of different flavors to get a feel for where you want to end up. Natural / musical, highly detailed / flashy imaging system, muscular system that slams you in the chest. Very different end points possible.
My endpoint rule of thumb is 35% speakers, 15% amp, 20% preamp (yes you still need one), 15% amp and 15% streamer. Wait to invest in high quality interconnects and wires until later. It’ll take you a year to really know your system. I’d consider DHLabs for interim speaker cables and interconnects.
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Both, really.
I had the Venere 1.5s in my home for a week, my local dealer let me try them. I don’t know why but they were very forgettable, to put it politely - completely lifeless.
I have the same feeling for your Yamaha model, far from the potential to provide you with a lot of joy. (If it were Denon from the late 90s, I’d be excited)
You could get some money for the speakers and that would let you buy an integrated amp too. NAD, Cambridge Audio, Quad, Rotel have decent, quality models in the $800 range. (Although you may not be in the US but the prices must be comparable)
For speakers, Audio Notes is one of the most the highly regarded brands for sure - and easy to drive. If you want to be overwhelmed: https://speakerchoices.com/
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Don’t spend any money on new speakers, amps, etc until you can fix your placement problem. Once you you have the placement problem sorted then look at decent floorstanding speakers or standmount speakers plus a sub or two.
The room, placement and the speakers are easily the largest part of the good sound equation. Everything else is gravy.
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Speakers then amp then preamp then streamer dac then cabels.you can go cheap like fosi audio class d or schitt or Amazon chifi or hit the used market.iseldom buy new to stretch my $. Enjoy the search stay healthy.
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Agree with getting your room setup first. It will have the most impact on what you hear coming out of your system. I would then upgrade your source. Moving from the Bluesound Node N130 to an Innuos Zen Mk3 streamer and a Holo Audio Cyan 2 DAC made my speakers sound different. So much more detailed. Hearing things I didn’t before with the same setup. Changing the source had More impact for me than the preamp, amp and cables. I also play CDs and upgrading the player didn’t have as much impact as changing the streamer and DAC. Next the speakers. Suggest floor standing with your room to fill the space with sound. A good pair can work without a sub unless you need the room to shake for movies. I have a pair of Arendal 1723 towers. Finally, Make sure your amp can power the speakers you choose so they can produce the volume you want at no more than 50% volume setting, to prevent clipping. What you get will depend on your budget.
In my experience the 3 most important factors are:
1. Room setup
2. Source - most importantly for streaming
3. Speakers
Enjoy your new musical journey. It’s a fun part of this hobby. And as Hans says, enjoy the music!
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As I heard (paraphrased) once visiting a guy from a now defunct local audio club
"if you can't do placement of your speakers which allows them to perform in your space, save your money, get a good source, good amp and some really nice wired headphones".
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You are getting contradictory information from different sources approaching the problem from different angles.
Start with speakers and their placement. You have a lifetime thereafter to audition various streamers, DACs, preamps, amps, and cables/ICs. Your question is like an equation requiring a constant. Let the speakers and their placement be the constant. Every component prior in the chain is a variable which you can spend forever tweaking to your preference. Or think of it as building a house. Speakers & their placement are the foundation; finish carpentry might be DAC X vs DAC Y vs. DAC Z, which is where I have landed after 10 years.
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I agree that speakers should come first and it is essential that you get them properly placed, hopefully in a properly treated room. I would then consider a preamp or if you’re inclined towards an integrated that would be next. I like separates, probably most people here do, but there are some advantages to integrated and I think just in the last few years, there are some really good ones that have come to market.
do your best to listen before you buy, and in your own room if that is possible which is not always the case. Folks will usually suggest what they have bought and that can be helpful, but this is incredibly subjective. A sound that pleases me, may not to be to your taste. It took me longer than it should have to learn that simple fact. I would be looking for equipment and people I respect would say oh that’s too bright or that is veiled and I would think that’s not at all how I hear it. There must be something that I’m missing. It turns out that we all just have different taste and you should trust your own ears. Some people like chocolate and some people like strawberry.
I’ve remade my system a couple of times over the last fee years and three changes made a really substantial difference: 1. A significant upgrade in speakers. 2. A significant upgrade in the preamplifier 3. Getting my room properly treated
Other upgrades have brought improvements, but far more subtle than these three. That’s been my experience, others may differ.
Good luck and keep us posted on what you do
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@albymana I’m three years or so in to my adventure of exploring HiFi as a hobby/passion. I got intrigued listening to a friend’s system who I think had seven sets of speakers set up in one room; he was only playing two of them, but I couldn’t tell which ones —they had all disappeared! The only thing in the room was the sound of the music. I thought, I want that! I agree with the advice of several before me.
After acquiring several sets of used speakers myself now, along with both tube and solid state preamps and amps, when I’m listening, I find the source is the most important.
Another way of putting it:
1. You’re listening to music, but you’re hearing the room.
Take away: Fit the speakers to the room and treat the room as necessary. This step assumes you have enough power in your amp to power your speakers. I would consider getting an integrated (amp+preamp) for the synergy & simplicity at this point.
2. Secure the highest quality source you can procure, after deciding digital or analog. If digital, spend/select the DAC. Might want to keep DAC separate, or buy higher end item in which DAC function is integrated. If analog, don’t skimp on the phono stage. I wouldn’t advise doing both at once.
Takeaway: You can’t make a poor signal sound better with a bigger amp; better sound depends upon removing noise and distortion, the task begins at the source.
3. Enjoy and experiment. Upgrade cables. Try different speakers (once you know your room). Try separates for amplification and/or DAC functions. Upgrade the power supplies if some of your components use bricks or switching power supplies.
Takeaway: The only person you have to please is yourself. (per Andrew Robinson)
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I agree with the several posters who advised to fix your room first. Get a pair of good speaker stands for your Sonus Fabers and get them out into the room a bit. You'll be surprised by the transformation of your system. You'll be able to get a soundstage between the speakers and be better immersed by the sound. Once you know the real potential of your system you can then decide what components to upgrade. I believe you're correct in stating that your current speakers are better than your amp. Once set up properly, obtaining new electronics will take your speakers further down the road (because they are capable).
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Disagree with speakers first,
you need better electronics so with a better amplifier you may be happy with the sonus fabers and you would set yourself up to properly power a new pair of loudspeakers as the next upgrade
Dave and Troy
Audio Intellect NJ
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@albymana
Since you're new to this, you might be best served by an incremental, cost-contained approach that lets you try new stuff yet feel free to dump it if it doesn't work out.
First, your speakers need to be freed from their bookshelf gulag. Set them on decent stands like Monoprice, which will leave change from your $100 bill. Listen to that and see what that does for your room. Change one thing at a time, then listen at length
Next comes a decent amp. Your little Yamaha is okay but not ideal. Get more power than you think you need and high current output which will help your current speakers and might well be required to properly drive your next pair.
Third comes a good sub. All bookshelf speakers need a good sub.
Then the rest will come in its own time. Enjoy!
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+1 devinplomnier and ddgtt
You should get your speakers out into the room on stands and spend some time finding a good location which optimizes bass performance and imaging. This will make a huge difference, and start you on the right path. Then if you like the sound but find them lacking in bass, consider a sub or 2.
Depending on your listening levels, you may then find the need for more power.
Good luck, and enjoy!
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There are two schools of thinking. Speakers first or Source first. From 30 years experience with different systems there is not only one way to do it. I tried both approaches but I got best results starting with speakers. Matching it to the sound I like and the room I have.
I started upgrading my current system 4 years ago with new speakers after moving in a new home. I just completed the system upgrade this month with a new cartridge. This is the last piece of the puzzle after I upgraded the preamp, amp, turntable and cables in that order. My system in now well balanced. I can now start over again…just kidding!
HiFi Huff on YouTube says that you should invest as much as 50% of your system on speakers.
good luck and keep us posted on your choices.
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Both. I'd start with the speakers you really want, positioned well (obviously) and maybe a used amp you can live with for a while - something bare bones, used, no onboard streamer/DAC. I think you might be disappointed pairing nice speakers with your current amp.
There is nothing wrong with your N130 as a streamer/DAC for now. Later add an LHY power supply and then an external DAC for a big jump in sound quality. You dont need to spend a fortune to get a nice quality digital source.
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Thank you so much guys for all the helpful input. Will keep you posted on my choices!
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Any reccos for essential, not too invasive, room treatment?
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PS. If you are looking at tube amps, Line Magnetic make really nice gear at reasonable prices. My first tube amp was LM, great for the money, and I sold it quickly for a good price.
BlackIce also make nice, well priced gear, as does NAIM.
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IMO you have a mis-match with the speakers & amp. The speakers are very inefficient @ 85db. Your amp is 60wpc. I like lower powered amps IE 45-60wpc because they tend to sound better IMO. That 'my take after 55 yrs of listening to high power & lower powered amps. I'll take the 60wppc every time. But you need more efficient speakers for that 60 wpc. You would be better off to use speakers with a 91+db efficiency. 85db like yours demand more power. I thought I agreed with @audiotroy until I saw your speakers specs
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I would first make the adjustment on speaker placement for the best presentation you can achieve within your room using your current speakers/amplifier. Then consider the purchase of new speakers. Keep in mind that you will then require a new amplifier in the near future.
With the adjustment in speaker placement you are considering would your listening be more of a 'near field' one? Namely where you would be close to the speakers with most of the room surrounding the listening environment? This is as much of an issue as actual room size.
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