My Reference is whatever I can afford. In my case it was a pair of Martin Logan Spire speaker’s. I’m happy with my choice. I wish you such happiness in yours.
Should a reference speaker be neutral, or just great sounding?
I was thinking about something as I was typing about how I've observed a magazine behave, and it occurred to me that I have a personal bias not everyone may agree to. Here's what I think:
"To call a speaker a reference product it should at the very least be objectively neutral."
However, as that magazine points out, many great speakers are idiosyncratic ideas about what music should sound like in the home, regardless of being tonally neutral.
Do you agree? If a speaker is a "reference" product, do you expect it to be neutral, or do you think it has to perform exceptionally well, but not necessarily this way?
"To call a speaker a reference product it should at the very least be objectively neutral."
However, as that magazine points out, many great speakers are idiosyncratic ideas about what music should sound like in the home, regardless of being tonally neutral.
Do you agree? If a speaker is a "reference" product, do you expect it to be neutral, or do you think it has to perform exceptionally well, but not necessarily this way?
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I've heard many monitor speakers in studios and do not think they would sound good for long term listening in my music room. @michaelgreenaudio I intend to purchase Von Schweikert VR9SE II which have maximum adjustability using highest quality components to alter the sound of each driver to match the room modes, despite having a great engineered room. My current speakers adjust bass alignment and mids/highs downward only. Flat is the best for that speaker in my room. The rear tweeter adjustment is probably the most important for me to control the ambiance level from the rear of a box speaker. Previously, from 20 to 35 years ago, I had non-adjustable electrostats. Didn't work out well in my lesser listening environments. |
Yes. They can predict with 86% confidence that people will pick the flattest speakers as the best sounding. And if you take bass out of the equation, that goes up to 99%. Paper: A SCIENTIFIC BASIS FOR CHOOSING LOUDSPEAKERS AND HEADPHONES FOR RECORDING AND BROADCAST (page 2) |
"neutral" is one of those fraught terms in audio--people are always slamming other over the head with it, claiming that this or that product sounds more "neutral."
"Neutral" does nothing because it's essentially meaningless, too open to interpretation.
Early on in my audio journey I decided the only meaningful comparison to audio gear (besides other audio gear/by contrast) was real live music, electric or acoustic, played in a known space. Audio gear that sounds "musical" (ie, like real music) wins out with me. Is this subjective? Hell, yes. But is it meaningful? Yes. And "reference" to me connotes audio gear that takes audio reproduction even higher, with better qualities recognized & sought in audio (ie, dynamics, bass, detail/resolution, etc). I have some inexpensive, not-very-refined gear that makes music all day long, but is clearly outclassed by bigger/better gear that also makes music, albeit on a higher plane of attainment. |
No reason to go for neutrality if you hate the sound. Rock and Techno/electronic stuff? Have at it. Whatever sounds best. But if you're into anything acoustic or vocal, neutrality is essential. Of course, we may disagree on the meaning of "neutral." But we will always make the best choice if the LIVE PERFORMANCE is our "reference" and not some imagined sound. |
If you set up Magneplaners correctly, they reproduce what you send them. If that is your idea of "reference" then so be it. Try playing a musical instrument live--a piano, possibly, as they are somewhat difficult to record--and then play the recorded version. If you don't hear any difference, either your ears are not trained or you have a pretty good system, I would say. That's what Maggies do if your system is not weak in some area. Try it and see for yourself, of course. Don't take anyone's word for anything. Cheers! |
A neutral speaker can still be sluggish or intransparent. ‘Great sound’ encompasses lots of things, especially the owners preferences. A truly reference speaker in my mind should have neutrality, speed and transparency to properly sound stage, image note decay and allow for tuning through positioning. In my experience neutrality, speed and transparency are vectors on which people in comparisons tend to agree. |
Good point, Eric....getting lost in the semantics is but one lurch towards commentary chaos....+1 Mho.....(among others.....*G*) Neutral > If I was to run a tone sweep through Spkr A, the trace on the waterfall RTA will match up to what my equipment (calibrated mic, all that..) will depict as close as possible, given as silent a test space as possible. Any gross deviations become obvious... Reference > As previously noted here, usually applied as 'hype' for the new 'type' of Spkr Z. Unless one applies the previous routine to Z with favorable results, it just calls attention to Company Z's new 'high water mark' for their offerings..... Now....I don't have any real favorites with regards to any particular brand or mfr. I've heard/listened to various 'n sundry in v. 'n s. situations, locations; some have strengths, others with weaknesses, and then the ones you walk right by for whatever reason/rationale. It's all subjective in the end....what fills your ears in 'That' way....and can be rationally afforded in whatever matter/means. A personal observation that y'all can either have a laugh/jeer/contemplation over.... I'm 'away' from my personal space periodically. This can be for a week; sometimes a month or three. I have in that interval just the memory of that which I've left behind. The longer the interval, the more my speakers may sound 'alien' to my ears, a certain familiarity has lapsed to varying degrees... It may take a day or two to 'recover/revive' that acknowledgement of 'OK, nothing's the matter or wrong.....it's just Me.' The psyc of sound, if you will. *G* Anyone else have this experience? |
Erik, "reference" is just a marketing term. Marketing should mean absolutely nothing to everyone. With enough experience and technical information, along with knowing what one likes to listen to, you can evaluate a speaker based on it's design and specification. If it rings all the right bells then a good listen is in order. There is no place in this country I would not fly to to hear a speaker I was going to pay more than 20 grand for, less if the dealer was say within a 250 mile range. |
The biggest mistake people can make with hifi is spending money while having no reference to determine what it is they are trying to accomplish sound wise. The second biggest mistake is thinking all recordings should sound a particular way. That will never happen. All recordings are different. The third biggest mistake is not considering how well specific components will integrate as a system, including the room. That is what specifications are for. To provide a guide for making decisions based on more than just opinions, speculation or hype. |
I can see we are getting off into discussions like "What do words mean anyway?" so let me clarify my original intention. If a vendor calls a particular speaker model "reference quality" does that bring out any specific expectations for you, or is this going to be variable based on who the vendor is? Like, if you hear of a Focal and B&W "reference" speaker, do you expect them to be close to ideal, or close to the best each brand can deliver? Best, E |
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“Should a reference speaker be neutral..” At first glance, I get what the OP was asking. But upon deeper scrutiny, the exercise seems a bit ludicrous. And at some level, it’s like finding a solution to a problem when a problem doesn’t exist. - The OP is asking for “objective” factors from “subjective” judgements- this doesn’t exist. While some would say linear 20-20khz is a criteria, a tube guy may not care about linearity at all. Does that mean tube guys has no point of references? Of course not. Speakers are imperfect facsimiles of reality. When evaluating speakers, people have different subjective importance/ranking of bass slam, midrange, transparency, clarity, musicality, detail, extension, etc. Trying to establish a one size fits all.... - Reference can be defined as any point in which other points compare. So technically any comparisons can be said to have a reference. We couldn’t survive without comparison of choices. - Reference Speaker as defined by an audio reviewer as being the subjectively best speaker he has heard to date. This too has its limitations. Audio reviewers can demo only a small sample of what is available. As such, their “reference speaker” is limited to this small sample. Ever notice that reviewer reference speakers are rarely the same amongst reviewers? If I were to demo $5k speakers to come up with a favorite aka reference, while another demos $100k speakers to come up with his reference, Seems obvious that these two references aren’t really the same. - For personal audio, what value is having a reference speaker (as defined as an audio reviewer) in the first place? Unless you’re trying to communicate to others like audio reviewers, isn’t our personal speakers simply evaluated by personal preferences? Don’t we subjectively simply say speaker A has this these positive/negative traits, and speaker B has these positive/negative traits...? Seems unlikely that we’d elevate a single pair of speakers to which all others will be compare to. |
I fully agree with audioquest4life response from above. Also, consider what speaker was used in the recording studio(s), especially in the past. I've seen most all studios use Yamaha NS-10 speakers to monitor the mix. IMHO those speakers do not sound great but they translate well. Meaning what you hear on those will closely resemble what you hear on a tabletop radio, home stereo... Those are used for near field monitoring. As for main monitoring in a studio, in the 70's JBL was a mainstay like the 4311's or 4412's. Going further back for main monitors the Altec 9844a was a standard. Today I see lots of big studios using custom made main monitors based on the design of the 9844a. Also, today for near field monitoring I see Genelec speakers most often. |
This is a great question. From a purely philosophic perspective, I would agree that you would want a speaker that has a perfectly flat frequency response from 20hz to 20khz and compare deviations in terms of sound profile. If everyone had this as a baseline and new what this sounded like, reviews would be exponentially more valuable. However, even if you found this speaker, it would most likely not behave that way in your room. Your choice in amplification and source is going to alter its sound profile. And finally, it may not be to your liking. Just because something is conceptually ideal, doesn't mean it is your preference. Additionally, wouldn't use a speaker of that sort to evaluate a 300B SET. Philosophically, I get it. In practice, it might be better to choose a speaker in every BestBuy as your "reference" so that people have a common, mainstream point of comparison. |
We will never hear nor achieve it. Get over it.
No no no, You completely miss my point. Neutral = the least distortyion/coloring. Look B&W are world famous, folks adore B&W, My opinions does not count, I really hate all B&W's,. The sound is british and very colored, Like dark grey, brownish, smoky, hazy, just way too dense in midrange. which is where 80-90% of our music lies. Neutarl is The Ideal,, and we seek as close as we can attain to that goal,, Look my new xovers are in the works for the Seas, Lets see what Mundorf does to the Excel. This might be a winning team = higher up Mt Everest. Sure I will not attain that peak,,as i do not have K's of $'s to buy what I know will bring me to that peak,,and thats not my style,, I am not a materialist, Once the xovers are completed and then its onto the Vishay Zfoil resistors for the Jadis DPL preamp, Maybe a few new resistors for the cayin CD17 Mark1, and I'm done. Thats my ideal, and I'd say its a Class A Reference system, which equals others costing XXXXX as much. Throwing money at this hobby does not always equate with high fidelity. Lets get that straight now. and stock components are , nothing more than stock, average parts, In order to raise the bar you have to gut the unit and employ world class parts. Upgardes with world class parts, are critical for superior neutral hi fidelity. Your average speaker lab, installs average parts = never will be a world class speaker. Lets get that straight now. |
It is always good to remember, or understand, that objectivity arose out of an attempt to emotionally separate from a purely subjective framework context of all possible representations of reality. That objectivity exists it 'is' via a purely subjective framework, that objectivity is a subset position of subjectivity. Where objectivity is a lower or more advanced from of this mental position that all reality is subjective, well... I leave it up to you. The bigger point is, that objectivity does not exist, that it is a conceptual and mental game, a tool, a viewpoint position only... in an entirely subjective existence. Objectivity, if properly weighted, is a logic tool, the same logic that explains to you that reality is inescapably subjective. the next domino to fall, might be that: Thought process --- is all you've got. Whatever the heck a you is. No one really knows what any of it is. People who don't practice a fully extended mental discipline might think they've got their 'hands' on something in this whole objectivity game...but really, no...just...no. |
'Reference.' 'Neutral.' Hmmm...probably 2 of the words that have spawned more posts, prose, positions, posturing, and downright donneybrooks imho in the relatively short time I've skulted about 'here'. That is, IF we ignore IC's, speaker cables, equipment choices/pairings, listening spaces and their acoutrements, and whatever else one applauds or takes issue on.... Which just shows to go you that the likelyhood of coming to anything resembling a universally satisfactory acknowledgement of an 'average agreement' will rank with genus homo finally becoming 'wise' as opposed to merely 'smart'....which generally falls short, anyway.... (The 'Second Coming' will likely occur within moments...and will likely be 'self inflicted', because we tend towards 'self fullfilling prophecies'. We dislike being disappointed.....) Since this can of worms has been dumped out for yet another rant 'n rave fest for some to enjoy, others to steam over, some to run from, and whatever boats ones' floats in whatever fashion... REFERENCE = The 'speaker du jour' that excites the senses of the 'cognoscenti'; size, price, feeding requirements be damned. NEUTRAL = An unattainable laboratory radiator. Absolutely 'guage block' FLAT, 1 hz>ultrasonic, 1dB>comet impact. The 'point source' that's Perfect in every way. Proven by any means and methodlogy concievable, in every combination. We will never hear nor achieve it. Get over it. We're organic beings with a limited lifespan, flawed from Day One. Likely unable to recognize Perfection even if it announced itself, however subtle or extreme.... I just 'do' what amuses me; likely, y'all do something similar. *s* At this point....I'm just going 'radio silence', and watch the splatter patterns on the virtual walls.... Have @ it... ;) Cheers 'n jeers, J |
How do you define neutral? How do you rally know if what you think is neutral really is neutral? What exactly is neutral. What is great sounding? How do you know if what you are hearing is because of the speaker or another piece of equipment? Every piece of equipment has an impact on the sound. So IMO this is just a big waste of time. Who cares as long as you enjoy your system that is what really matters. |
When I was younger and read Stereophile and Absolute Sound every month, I often felt that when reviewers either listed their equipment as reference or the device they were reviewing was called reference, it meant several things to me; it was out of my price range, it must have some unobtanium sound qualities that only few people get to experience, and the company received some publicity based on the magazine review. As I got older, I learned, and as others have stated, it can be either objective or subjective. Who makes the determination if a product is to be called reference? Lately, some audio companies are pushing out their so called reference products at ultra exotic prices. So, perhaps, the audio industry is in some ways pushing reference products from their perspective and people who are interested in absolute state of the art by said company, are buying these products. The reviewers have a new reference product to review. But, when did reviewers start arbitrarily start calling products they reviewed reference? Or, why do reviewers call their system reference when reviewing components? I can easily say I have a reference system too. In fact, I reviewed xyz, and used my reference system consisting of McIntosh MC2301, octave Jubilee reference preamp, Transrotor Apollon TMD turntable, Clearaudio MontBlanc stand, and Shunyata power cables. In my humble opinion reference as used by reviewers indicates a level of experience where differentiations in equipment can easily be identified and extrapolated whereby a review uses the superlatives we often hear describing high end or reference products. I give up...too much to ponder. Reference is what anyone wants to call it, therefore, my system is a reference, yours is a reference because after all, you are comparing it to everything else. One last thing, what is the baseline to match the reference statement? Is it technical specifications, sound, build quality, etc.? That seems to me, at least from my foxhole of experiences, the confluence of definitions. |
good detail imaging ,soundstaging is essential . the tonal balance the internal voiced Xover network will dictate how nuetral or tonal balance . A lot depends how much $$ you have to spend . i prefer to buy used save at least 50%+ and then rebuild ,or have someone putin top quality xover components many companies cheat in this area they just put in Average since you can’t see what’s in there .i know by Many years experience,and many speakers. |
Everyone’s “reference” will certainly be different
There is of course some subjectivity in Reference,, Objectivity also exists when employing world class components. Seas Meets Mundorf. 2 world class labs. No, Seas meets Mundorf Meets Jadis, 3 world class labs. all 3 are truly reference components, Not opinion, thats objective facts, read the reviews. |
Neutral, no color, Not warm. This is a great speaker,,, I am about to upgrade my Thor xovers,, with new Mcaps, M resistors , This should make the Thors the best sounding speaker for its size, budget in the world. Look fora YT vid comming soon,,,parts are on order. Madisound will build the new outside the cab xovers. Seas Meets Mundorf. The WOW factor should be off the charts. The caps in there now are the old legendary Hovland Musicaps , Huge yellow 10uf's. X4 and 8uf's X2. Gonna run 10uf Silver Gold ,. each retails for a wopping $220 each,,got a pair used off ebay for $230. Just ordered a pair of Silvergold EVO oil 8uf, as each Millennium take's 18uf capacitors, so 1 Supreme silvergold 10uf + 1 EVO silvergold oil 8.2 uf, the resistors will be Munedorfs Ultra R-Resist Foil. , $17 each. YT vid comming, new wires on drivers, taking out the copper flat wire will employ navships silvercopper 20 ga. = could be explosive. I will finally find out just what potential the Seas Excel have,, plan to send a video to Jadis, SEAS, Madisound and Mundorf. Just bought a new mic for my vlog cam. |
Reference in HEA is fairly generic and weakens the origins of "reference" or "referencing" music, which was started by going from the Live room to the Control room to the Playback room. I've seen High End Audio try to use musical production terms from the very beginning. Cute but not reality as far as the production of recordings and playing back goes. As said above, your room is more your reference than your speaker is. mg |
One reference I can think of is Greenwich Mean Time. What single loudspeaker model could aspire to the kind of acceptance that GMT has? As others say, an individual can establish their own reference if they like, but it pertains only to them. The rest is advert copywriter gobbledygook. Along with SE, Signature, etc. |
Everyone’s “reference” will certainly be different. So many things determine the way we hear. The shape of your head. The size of your head. The shape of your ears. Even the size of your torso affects the way you hear. Now let’s get into the room you listen in. And the list goes on and on. My reference and yours may be very different. With all these variables, what is neutral? Your neutral,may be tipped up to me. I think,of course,only my opinion,is reference would be what sounds great to your ears. A great topic with many different correct answers. Now,if a speaker measures flat,do we all hear it the same way? |
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A reference is anything you refer to. For words we can refer to a dictionary. You could look it up and see, that is literally the meaning of reference. Nothing about neutrality, objectivity, or anything like that. Your reference could be a Picasso painting of a woman with three boobs and a few other odd body parts. Your reference could be last years iPhone. A reference is nothing more than a standard. There's nothing objective about it, not at all. A meter is a reference, defined about as objectively and with as much precision as anything probably ever could be. Yet the meter itself is totally arbitrary. We just decided for convention to make it what it is. Same with your speaker reference. Totally arbitrary. Make it what you will. |
When a speaker manufacturer refers to their product as a "reference", I would expect it to mean that all the boxes are checked; the specs are great, the parts and materials are very high grade and the SQ at a level that would satisfy most critical listeners. Neutral in at least the sense that no tonal variation or other negative attribute stands out. Unfortunately, the accompanying price tags often make all this irrelevant to me as I can’t/won’t pay the price of admission. For the rest of us unwashed masses, we have lived with speakers long enough to become acutely aware of whatever shortcomings we judge them to have and seek to address those issues when it comes time to replace them. So, if you select your next speakers with your ears and not based specifications, reviews or online advise, your reference is probably whatever speakers you have now. |
My thoughts on what constitutes a reference are similar to those from @kr4 above. It is something that is well characterized and whose attributes are not in dispute. Thinking in simple terms, it is like a graduated ruler, against which one can measure the length of multiple objects with confidence. Use of a ruler is not context dependent in a practical sense. I can use it at my desk, in my living room, in my listening room and it works the same. I can use it in Tennessee and travel to Leipzig and it still works the same. I think of "reference" audio equipment and speakers in particular primarily within the context of use by a reviewer. I don't think of any of my pieces as being references even though when I audition new gear I use my existing equipment as a reference of sorts. I think more in terms of "destination" pieces. Those pieces that are so good I will probably never replace them. I regard my Atma-Sphere M-60 amps are destination pieces. Possibly my Coincident CSL line stage. I would be hard pressed to significantly improve on the M-60/CSL pairing. Future changes to my system will be to source or speakers, or perhaps to cabling or isolation devices. Speaker performance is so tied to how well suited it is for the room in which it is used and also to being fed by a well matched amplifier that I just don't know how one really could have a reference speaker in the absolute sense. A reference should not be context dependent. What good would a ruler be if it were made of a material that had a high coefficient of thermal expansion? One that would only give reliable readings in a room where the temperature was rigorously controlled at 20C? That context dependence is the nature of speakers. How they perform is so context dependent I just don't think it is possible for them to act as true references. |
So it sounds as if most here are saying that objective neutrality is not a requirement, but to be a "reference" speaker it should be the epitome of the maker's product line? Or it can be something you go back to as your personal preference. I guess I always thought of "reference" as being similar to laboratory grade, like a precision scale or ruler. Something other speakers should strive for. Seems most are saying it is just hype, like the words "deluxe" or "premium." |
Reference can be a comparative opinion, imperfect but state-of-the-art, or a calibration standard. All of it applies to speakers. Do I want exceptional beauty? Do I want to enjoy the unenjoyable? Of course I do. I want both. Reference gear should deliver more. It should especially shine when the recording delivers less. It's not either/or, it's all that. IMO |
