Magic.
So how many people are using subwoofers
existing system=
CJ PFR pre
CJ MF-2200 amp
Theta Miles cdp
Silverline Sonata speakers
Homegrown silver lace ic's
MIT-2 bi-wire
I agree with Wolfe that real sub-20Hz subs add venue ambience and imaging and space cues that aren’t there without them. A few years ago I had a modest subscription to the Seattle Symphony for a few seasons, and I remember noticing that the concert hall sort of "crackled" with energy even before the music started. Ever since that experience I have been reaching the theory/conclusion that when shopping for new speakers you should start with the subwoofer(s). And if you’re looking for the "absolute sound" you’ll *never* achieve it without serious subs that can define the space. Properly chosen subwoofers will determine how well you can energize your listening space (helping determine how much contribution you need from the L-R stereo pair), and just how much infrasonic atmosphere you want to add to the experience. Here is an excerpt of Jacob Heilbrunn’s contribution to a review of a pair of JL Gotham subs ($24K/pair, now $30K for V2):
No one would think, as one’s basking in the sound of a pair of high-end minimonitors reproducing solo classical guitar, that he’d want (or need) a sub. But there it is. Tip for integrating subs to mains: I have a pair of modest little 8" subs (Mirage MM8s, out of business, out of production). They don’t reproduce that sub-24Hz venue energy, but they flesh out the 35-50Hz region of my Maggie 1.7s. Fortunately they have a great set of controls--volume, continuous phase knob from 0-270 deg., and crossover point from 50Hz (wish it was 40) up to 150 and from there, open-ended. For awhile I was noticing a persistent hump around 100 Hz which was annoying. Normally I’d think it was a box or port resonance, but these are maggies and I figured it might be a crossover (betwen subs & Maggies) issue that was exciting a room resonance. I put on my mono copy of Sgt. Pepper’s and cued up "A Little Help From My Friends." My reasoning was that it would be easier to dial in dual subwoofers with a mono signal, and it would be easier to address the crossover point with Paul’s very melodic bassline in this number that dances back and forth across the 50Hz crossover point. While playing the music, I turned one sub off while I adjusted the knobs on the other. It turned out the phase control was the issue. I have the subs sitting about 2’ behind the panels with the main sub diaphragm facing the wall to augment volume and extension. When I turned the phase dial from 0deg. to about 160 deg. out of phase, the hump disappeared. I turned it off and tried the same with the other sub, and voila! That sub popped into proper focus (and the hum disappeared) at the exact same setting, -160 deg. Since that very quick episode I have enjoyed totally integrated subs’n’panels on every kind of music I throw at them. You might say I got better sub integration with "A Little Help From My Friends" even though nobody came over to my house. |
best article I've seen discussing this.... August 3, 2008 http://ultrafi.com/why-everybody-needs-a-good-subwoofer/ …And Why a Really Good Subwoofer is so Hard to Find Audiophiles and music lovers are missing out on one of the most dramatic improvements they can make to their audio system: Powered Subwoofers. Most audiophiles won’t even use the word “subwoofer” in public, let alone plug one in to their precious systems. There is a kind of snobbery that exists in the world of high-end audio aimed primarily at receivers, car audio, home theater and especially subwoofers. As a matter of fact, subwoofers are responsible for many people disliking both car audio and home theater, since it is the subwoofer in both of those situations that tends to call attention to the system and cause many of the problems. The truth of the matter is that subwoofers have fully earned their bad reputation. They usually suck. Most of them sound boomy, muddy and out of control with an obnoxious bass overhang that lingers so long as to blur most of the musical information up until the next bass note is struck. We have all had our fair share of bad subwoofer experiences, whether it’s from a nearby car thumping so loud that it appears to be bouncing up off the road, or a home theater with such overblown bass that it causes you to feel nauseous half-way through the movie. You would think that high-end audio manufacturers would be above all of that, but you would be wrong. In many cases, their subwoofers are almost as bad as the mass-market models because they too, are trying to capitalize on the home theater trend that is sweeping the land. You see, it’s very difficult and expensive to build a good subwoofer. One reason is that a sub has to move a tremendous amount of air, which places big demands on the driver (or drivers). Moving lots of air requires a lot of power and that means an amp with a huge power supply, which can cost huge money. Finally, in trying to move all of this air, the driver (or drivers) which operate in an enclosure, create tremendous pressure inside of the box itself. The cabinet walls must be able to handle this pressure without flexing or resonating. Building such a box involves heavy damping and bracing which gets very expensive. When you consider these requirements, you quickly realize that it is virtually impossible to build a really good subwoofer (I mean good enough for a high-end music system) for under $1000. Yet most of the subwoofers out there sell for between $500 and $900. Manufacturers do this because their marketing research has shown them that that is what people want to spend on a sub, never mind the fact that what people want to spend and what it takes to get the job done right may be two different things. The result is that even most high-end manufacturers are putting out poorly constructed subwoofers that just don’t sound very good. I don’t want to give you the impression that anyone who really wants to can build a good subwoofer so long as they are willing to throw enough money at the problem, because that really isn’t true either. There are some pretty expensive and well-constructed subwoofers out there that you would never want to plug into your music system because they would most certainly make the sound worse. Why? Because of their crossovers. A crossover is inserted into your signal path in order to remove the lowest frequencies (the deep bass) from your main speakers so that they no longer have to do all of the dirty work. The deep bass will instead be dealt with by the subwoofer. The #1 benefit of adding a high quality subwoofer to your system is not how it further extends the bass response, but how it can dramatically improve the sound of your existing power amp and main speakers from the midrange on up. That, my friends, is by far the most compelling reason to add a sub to your high-end music system. Once your main speakers are freed from the burden of making deep bass, they will sound cleaner, faster and clearer, especially in the midrange and midbass. They will also image way better because there will be far less air pressure and therefore resonance and vibration affecting their cabinet walls. And since the power required to make the deep bass is provided by the subwoofer’s built-in amplifier, your main power amp will be free from that burden and begin to sound like a much more powerful amplifier. The one big problem with all of this is that you need a crossover to roll off the deep bass in your system and achieve all of these benefits. And the crossover that comes with almost every subwoofer on the market will cause more damage to your signal than can be overcome by these benefits. That is the main reason that audiophiles refuse to consider adding subwoofers, even very expensive ones with well built cabinets. Enter the Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subwoofer. This is the only subwoofer that is specifically designed to be inserted into the highest of high-end music systems without doing any harm to the precious signal. So how does Vandersteen do it? Simply. In fact his crossover scheme is so ingeniously simple that it’s a wonder nobody else thought of doing it the same way. I’ll spare you an in-depth description and just say that the only thing you end up inserting into your system is a couple of high quality capacitors. That’s it, nothing more! No additional wires or gadgets enter your signal path. Hell, you don’t even have to disconnect the wire between your amp and speakers to add this subwoofer. The model 2Wq sub uses the same basic crossover scheme as the $15,000 flagship Model 5As. As a matter of fact, you can even run the specially designed Model 5A crossovers (M5-HP) with the 2Wq if you want the most transparent sound imaginable. So what about the other reason to add a subwoofer to your system: for more powerful and extended bass? I don’t care how big your main speakers are, they’re no match for a good subwoofer in the bass. A really good subwoofer can run rings around the best floorstanding speakers when it comes to bass extension, power and control because it is designed to be good at that and nothing but that, whereas main speakers have to be good at higher frequencies as well. Ideally, you want two subwoofers so that you have true stereo separation down deep into the bass. Stereo subs can also help to lessen room interaction problems by providing two discrete sources of bass information. Remember, if you can’t afford to buy two subwoofers at once, you can always add the second one later. Adding a pair of 300 watt powered subwoofers is exactly like adding a pair of 300 watt monoblock amplifiers to your system and upgrading to a pair of better main speakers at the same time. The beauty is that you don’t have to replace your main power amp or speakers to do it. But there is a problem here as well. Everything comes at a price, and the price you pay with most subwoofers is that when you add them and their built-in amplifiers to your system, they don’t tend to blend or integrate well with the sound of your power amp and speakers. This is especially true if you own a tube amp, because the character of your amp is nothing like the character of the big solid-state amp that is built into most subwoofers. The result is that your system sounds split in half. You can hear where one part of the system leaves off (namely your amp and speakers) and where the other part takes over (the sub and its amp). This is a HUGE problem for audiophiles who aren’t willing to destroy their system’s coherence for additional power and bass extension. Fortunately, Vandersteen has the perfect solution for this problem that is, again, so simple, I wonder why nobody else thought of it first. His solution is to build a very powerful 300 watt amplifier that strictly provides the huge current needed to drive the subwoofer. You can think of this amplifier as only half of an amplifier; or just the power portion of an amplifier. The release of this power is controlled by the signal that is provided by your power amp. Vandersteen’s amplifier needs a voltage to modulate its current output, and what better place to get that voltage than from your main power amp? This way, your power amplifier is directly responsible for the sonic character of the deep bass coming from the subwoofer because it provides the necessary voltage signal. This voltage signal contains the unique and characteristic sound of your main power amplifier and insures that that character is maintained in the sound of the subwoofer itself. The beauty of it is that your amplifier is only providing a voltage reference and no actual current, so it is not taxed with the burden of “driving” the subwoofer in any way. As a matter of fact, your amplifier doesn’t even know that the sub is connected to it. The 2Wq’s potential is almost unlimited given that it will ratchet up its performance as you improve your power amp. Remember that you always want your subwoofer to sound just like your power amp. No better, no worse. NO DIFFERENT! After having spent time with the amazing Vandersteen Model 5A loudspeakers with their 400-watt powered, metal cone subwoofers, we were reminded of the sound we had with the awesome Audio Research Reference 600 mono power amps. With the Ref 600s there was a sense of effortlessness, openness and unrestricted dynamic freedom that we have only otherwise heard with live unamplified music. Listening to those monstrously powerful amps made us realize that all other systems sound compressed by comparison. Only when we heard the new Vandersteen Model 5As with their hugely powerful built-in subwoofers, did we again have a strikingly similar sonic experience. The reason is that the Model 5As provide a total of 800 high-quality watts, to which you have to remember to add the power of the amp we were using, the ARC VT-100, at 200 watts. This means we were listening to about 1000 total watts of amplifier power – not far from the 1200 total watts provided by the Ref 600s. With the Vandersteen subwoofer crossover and amplifier, you are able to get those hundreds of subwoofer watts to blend seamlessly and even take on the character of the ARC VT-100. It’s amazing! What’s even better is that the price of the system with the Model 5As and the VT-100 is under half the cost of the Ref 600s alone! Since this discovery, we have achieved the same kind of unbelievable dynamics and seamless blending with ProAc loudspeakers and twin Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subs. So, if you want the sound of Ref 600s but cannot afford them, buy a pair of Model 5As or your favorite pair of ProAcs plus a couple of 2Wq subwoofers and mate them with a VT100 and you’ll get surprisingly close. You can cut the cost even further by running a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq 300-watt subwoofers with your existing speakers. Or mate a pair of 2Wqs with your favorite ProAc. In any case, it is the magic of SUBWOOFERS that allows this to happen. It is for all of the above reasons that there is only one subwoofer in existence capable of integrating seamlessly into a high-end music system, allowing you to reap all of the benefits of having a subwoofer, with none of the drawbacks. And the Vandersteen 2Wq is the one. And just in case you think I am a biased source, our correspondent Blaine Peck (who, for all you know is also a biased source) recently wrote the following, with no discussion between us about the topic prior to his sending us his comments. Whether reproducing the plucked string of an acoustic bass or the sound of an analog synthesizer, the Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofer is a seamless extension of any system. Nothing else need be added! With its internal 300-watt power amplifier, it is the perfect compliment to any sound system. Designed to take on the characteristics of your main stereo amplifier, the amp in the 2Wq will not sound foreign in your system. Also, through an extension of the Vandersteen design philosophy, a unique gradually sloping crossover system is implemented so you simply do not know where your main speakers stop and the 2Wq begins. Now that your main speaker/amplifier combination need not concern themselves with those power demanding low frequencies, they are freed up to work in a more comfortable range. Yes, now what is coming from your main speakers will sound better than ever. The 2Wq is not just another subwoofer. It consists of three 8″ floor-facing drivers, each with a massive motor. So why not a more typical single 12″ or 15″ design? Well frankly, the mass of a larger driver will not allow it to respond as quickly as the Vandersteen 8″ drivers to today’s demanding recordings. The 2Wq’s 8″ drivers are designed to handle the content but be “fleet of foot” at the same time. Concerned about where to put them? You need not worry. With the control of both its respective level and the “q” (how loose or tight the low end is) you have the flexibility to place them in a location that fits your living environment and not sacrifice performance. The simple beauty of this product will soon become an addition to your room. So whether on orchestral music, hard rock or something in between, the Vandersteen 2Wq will exceed your expectations. |
My RELs only match in the sense that they are from the same manufacturing period, and since they're in different acoustic surroundings in my listening space it seems not to matter that they're designed differently ("Q" series front firing 10" 150 watts vs. down firing 8" 100 watts). They sound very similar as far as comparing these subs can reveal, and maybe it's actually better they're dissimilar…in any case they work splendidly. |
Wow! I just stumbled across this. I'm amazed that this thread was picked up after such a long period. If you look, my original post was made 03-21-2002 6:59pm . That's 14 years ago. Not complaining. But my system has come a long way sincee then. Yet some components remain. I did buy a Rel Storm 3 sometime after I made the initial post. Its done very well. But I just installed hardwood floor and am considering replacing the Rel or adding another to go with it. However, I'm not sure another brand or even another Rel would match up well unless it was another Storm 3. So I've looked at the HSU, The Rythmik, The SVS and the Golden Ear among others. Nontheless, I appreciate the new posts. I'll look them over. Thanks arte BTW system is listed if you are interested. Picys need update though. |
I agree wholeheartedly when Bob Reynolds says: " Utilizing a sub, any sub, is all about the setup". I'm now on my fourth or fifth setup with subs and in all cases it's taken a while to get them properly "integrated" in the system. A few months ago I added a pair of JL Audio subs to a new setup, which was really "dialed in" to the room before the subs arrived. Long-story-short, the room had a lot of "ringing" at low frequencies, but 10 bass traps later, using the Room EQ Wizard software and a calibration microphone, got the "ringing" under control and the subs really well "integrated". One of my buddies says that "the best sub doesn't sound like it's working"...until you unplug it and find that last octave or so of low bass really works best with a sub. One last thing, if you can swing a pair of subs, there is something more "visceral" having them, hearing and feeling the bass coming from one side of the sound stage or another (or both). Good luck! I hope you have success integrating sub(s) into your system, if you do, you'll have a wide smile on your face! |
I am a big fan of having sub woofers. Having said that, I find that it takes a lot of patience to get them "dialed in" to the room and the side speakers. A few months ago I upgraded from a pair of two-way monitors to a pair of three-way floor standing speakers whose specs indicate bass as low as 37hz. It took a while, but when I got the floor standers in just the right spot, they sound great, but don't really produce that last octave of bass. I ordered a pair of JL Audio F113V2 sub woofers, really great subs, but they brought out all sorts of problems with the room. I have installed six bass traps, and have two more on order, and am on my way getting the boominess out of the room, but it's been a struggle. My former system was in a much smaller living room, took some time to get the sub dialed in, but once I did, it put a wide grin on my face! For me, I really enjoy having that last octave of the musical spectrum, so it's been worth the investment of time, patience and money. |
I agree Wolf. I wonder how many have not purchased them because they are not priced high enough. I paid about that for my one SW-12, used. dc, you say, "I can vouch for REG's observations. It KILLS my single V2W"What is your context? Did you hear REG's set-up, or have you tried them in your own system? I haven't heard much from owners but I am curious. |
I like the REL a lot, but you should also look at the Hsu brand - I use a couple for cinema use only and they meld well and are quite tunable, depending on which model you get. I do use them for music play back with organ - my main speakers are 3db down at 20 Hz while the Hsu go down to 16 Hz (what you need to reproduce a 32' organ stop, which you feel rather than hear) |
The Swarm system just seems cool and inexpensive…if I wasn't happy with my RELs I'd seriously consider those things. It's true that a lot of music doesn't get to sub territory, but I like the ambient aspect of the sub adding that airy reality to the mix a much as the direct bass reproduction...systems need that to seem more like natural sound. |
to add to the excellent subs already mentioned here (Rythmik, SVS, Audiokinesis, etc) i will also suggest Seaton Sound. i recently added a seaton submersive f2 and am EXTREMELY impressed with it's performance for music (for movies, a distant second consideration for me, it's staggeringly good). for reference, i've also owned subs from JL Audio, Vandersteen and SVS and prefer the seaton sub to all others. |
Look into the Audiokinesis SWARM subwoofer system. Four passive subs that you ASYMMETRICALLY distribute around the room with a 1000W amplifier to drive them. No single sub, (even Vandersteen or REL), can compete with this system, if set up right, and its relatively inexpensive - about $2500.00 for the whole deal. Also see Robert Greene's review in TAS from last summer. He said it was the BEST bass he has ever heard, (and he's heard it all). I am using it in a Vandersteen 5.1 set-up and I can vouch for REG's observations. It KILLS my single V2W. |
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I just added a svs 12" sub (sealed) to my pair of rega rs5. Crossover set between 60 and 90hz on the sub depending on my mood, no cut-off on the regas. very enjoyable, i may add a 2nd one later. I used to have vandersteen 2s sig, but now, i can customize the output. i have always been reticent about using a sub because i thought good integration could be difficult to achieve. Well, This was a false belief. I actually may actually switch to true high-end bookshelves at som point. |
I used a single REL Q150e (150 watt 10") for years with no need for a digital room correction sound nanny (I think they can cloud things with more crap in the mix, plus my largish room has a tall sloping ceiling so it sounds good anyway) as I turn it up or down if needed (easy, and not so often). The mains run full range of course (a REL thing) and it all sounds amazing…got a second REL recently (Q108 MKII) from the same vintage and man…simply better…"charging the room" is part of what they do as that sense of low ambience is part of the natural sound of the world, and should simply be there. I turn the subs down to demo this for friends and they agree with me, and think I'm a wonderful person with great taste. |
A second for the Rythmik F12G, a sub made expressly for music reproduction. The G in the model designation is for GR Research, whose designer/owner Danny Richie collaborated with Rythmiks Brian Ding on the design of the woofer (a paper-coned version of Rythmiks aluminum one, for increased low-level resolution) . The Rythmik subs feature a Servo Feedback loop of a new type, differ from (and superior to) older SF designs. For DIYers, the woofer is also available optimized for Open Baffle use, and two of them installed in a Dipole frame is THE sub for planar loudspeakers. Seriously good! |
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I recently got Vandersteen 5 speakers that have true built in subs that go to 22 HZ, are very tunable, and have built in 400 wpc amps to drive the subs. I have never heard such great bass, and I love them. But a friend uses REL subs with MG 3.6s very successfully. I think Karls (above) gives good advice. " Yeah, my Vandersteen 4As are 3 db down at 24 hz and I really don't think they need any bass reinforcement! My main system speakers roll off at 20 hz, so same thing - BUT I do have a pair of Hsu VTF-15H subs to use only for home theatre use. I have a friend that sets if home theatres and he says he's never seen any client that doesn't crank the subs up too high - meaning higher than the program material and higher than he set them up using very expensive test gear. A proper sub used for listening to music should 1 - take the weight off the lowest octave for main speakers that are troubled in that area, and 2 - make their presence felt not as the all to common boom, but subtly as a sense of filling in something you hadn't realized you were missing before you put the sub in the system. I've also used Vandersteen subs and found them to be excellent value and second their recommendation above. |
I'm using Golden Ear Triton One's. The sub is built in and can go to 16Hz. Sean, I think this qualifies as an exception in the case of vented. Dennisj, besides my T1s I know there are other high-end speaker manufacturers that use powered woofers of some kind. Not sure what you believe they are messing up but I do agree there can be an audible difference between a powered sub and non powered. |
I have been running different bookshelf size mains with a sub for many years. My room has a nasty peak at 40 Hz so it was always tough to get good sound with floorstanding speakers. My current system is a pair of Revel M106 speakers paired with a REL R305 sub. I run the mains full range and drive the sub via a Velodyne SMS 1 which serves as the low pass crossover and allows me to tame the room mode. The sub is crossed over low with a steep crossover, it'seems just the right amount of low frequency given the decent bass from my mains. I'm driving the system with a Conrad Johnson Classic 2SE preamp and a pair of Quicksilver Mid Mono amps running KT66 power tubes. My main source is a NAD M51 DAC fed by an OPPO 103d universal player. For me a three piece system works best. Friends and family are always impressed at the performance of such a small set of speakers. |
The Aerial SW-12 sub nicely rounds out my nearly full-range Aerial Model 9s. Filling out the bottom octave adds a bit of warmth, fullness and does make a difference wrt to depth and drive on certain music, IMO. It is not just the frequency extension but the drive that a good sub can add because even speakers with specs extending into the lower registers are seldom able to provide the level of drive in those lower frequencies that is provided by a good sub. One method that has worked for me in matching a sub with main speakers, is to initially set both the upper frequency and level of your sub(s) a little lower than you would think is needed, listen for a period of time (e.g, a week or more) and then listen without the sub. If you miss how it sounds with the sub in the system, then you are probably on the right track. You can always bump it up a bit and repeat, until you reach a point where the sub is interfering with the balance of your system, then you have gone too far. I suspect many who don't like subs in their systems for music either have them turned up to high, either the frequency, the level, or both, or maybe have a sub that is too slow to mate well with their main speakers. Placement can also be played with. A corner placement has worked pretty well for me. I would like to add a second SW-12 and I am curious to hear from anybody using the AudioKinesis Swarm sub array. |
You don't have to be into organ music to enjoy the surprises you're in for when you hear the extra low frequencies on many an unsuspecting recording. I've yet to hear a so called full range passive speaker system. Yes, there are some mega $ systems that go deep but tend to have little or no control of the room. Subwoofers without room correction and remotely selectable EQ and volume can easily overload a specific recording. Control is key and way fun. |
GOLD's statement may be more of a commentary on the REL than on subs in particular...my friend just hooked up a REL sub to the MUSICAL FIDELITY amp and said the sub sounded "WOOLY"...that is "kinda sloppy..not tight...not hifi"...and its possible that the built in amp has something to do with it ...so Dennis may have a point as well...i would love to A/B the famous REL with the brand new line of subs from ADIRE appropriately called the BRAMHA SERIES...10,12,15...and a monster 18!!...the 12 weighs like 40 POUNDS!!!adire audio.com |
Powered subs for music, not a good idea. They always mess up something. I have used Stereo Rels, Genesis 928s and single Vel HGS 15, Bag End Infra, Paradigm 15 etc. They always mess up something. Shut subs down and listen for a WEEK, I guarantee you will prefer naked. Eggleston Fontaines, Tyler Reference, Paradox 1s to name a few I have tried with subs. Many say they prefer monitors w/sub ??? Monitors generally have no mid bass punch and are small sounding, adding a sub and you end up with no mid bass punch, small sound, but some added low rumble. |
Im not 100 percent sure on this but I beleive that in music all notes carry some bass in them regardless of frequency. Maybe its not so much the note but the the sound of the string off the wooden guitar or the way breath resonates off of a reed. I can tell you that a good sub will add to the entire spectrum. Recently I added a second sub and the difference was more like a cable upgrade then just adding bass. |
My Jaguars on their own are pretty strong to the mid 30s. Adding a pair of Titan IIs makes all the difference in the world. It isn't just the added last octave, it is the openess and increased sense of "ease" over the whole upper bass and even into the lower midrange. The soundstage is also significantly expanded and at the same time more focused! I use ACI's passive 85Hz line-level filters in front of my main amp. The Titan II crossover is actually set around 50Hz. You'd think this would result in a hole in the response, but instead it greatly eliminates an otherwise obnoxious room mode at around 70Hz. The bass is far tighter with the subs in the system. |
A response to "Gold": if you have been disappointed with the way that subs reproduce music, then I'm inclined to say that you haven't heard the right sub(s). The Vandersteen 2Wq subs do a wonderful job with music. They are fast, dynamic, and very musical -- perhaps due to their sealed box design, using three 8" drivers rather than one 12-15" driver, and perhaps due to the use of a custom passive crossover that is inserted between the preamp and the power amp. Please don't get the impression that I am trying to talk you into Vandy subs. However, FWIW, my Vandy 3A Sig's sound even more musical and responsive since adding a pair of 2Wq's, which Richard Vandersteen attributes to the reduced imtermodulation distortion of the main speaker's drivers. The point of my post is to encourage you to explore some other alternatives to subwoofers that may be more musical in your system. Good subwoofers can add a great deal to an already good system. |
Gold's statement is just un-bright. He just condemned every powered subwoofer from $30k down to $100 without any jusification except that he had a bad experience. Therefore, with that logic, it should be safe to assume that Gold no longer brushes his teeth because he developed a cavity 20 years ago. I shall qualify a bit. If one purchases a good or better musical subwoofer and connects it to a good or better high-end system, and if one knows how to properly place and dial-in the sub to match the speakers, then one should be more than satisfied with the reproduction of a larger frequency spectrum. |
It appears to me that you would benefit more from optimizing what you have now (20Hz-28kHz), and add a sub later if you still felt that it was necessary. Things like dedicated AC mains, cable upgrades (pcs, ics, speaker cable), and possibly stouter amplification, can all have a substantial impact. Not just in the bass, but as someone else commented, across the entire range. I'll third Glen's MIT experience. I just upgraded to MIT Reference speaker cables and ics, and the bass extension and quality was immediately noticeable. |
Thanks guys I had pretty much decided on the sub but am somewhat surprised at how many would go with an amp upgrade instead.That being said, I have been looking at the REL storm primarily because the REL and ACI Titan are the only 2 subs that can be connected to 2 channel and 5 channel processor simultaneously. If I understand correctly this is not an option with other subs or am I missing something? |
I think that you will get more out of the addition of a QUALITY sub(s) than you will an amplifier change. Keep in mind that this requires more physical room space, greater electrical demand, the aquisition of another amp and speaker cables if passive, the purchase of an interconnect or speaker cables if powered, etc... There is a LOT to think about when adding a sub(s). Obviously, the biggest difference would be if your main speakers are pretty anemic to start off with. That last comment may not apply to your specific situation with the Sonata's, but i included it as a point of reference. A high quality sub will help the most and be easiest to blend if you take the following matters into consideration: You can actively cross over the mains at a relatively sharp slope to minimize their load and excursion. The use of a flexible crossover and "Q" or "blending" control is a MAJOR advantage. You can run two subs and optimally place them ( not tucked away in the corner to go "boom, boom, boom" ). Sealed designs are best in terms of being "tight" with excellent transient response but typically require very large boxes and BIG power. Second choice would be a very well designed transmission line, but these are much harder to build let alone mass produce. There may be some exceptions to this ( like any other "rule" ) such as the Linn Isobarik ( sometimes called "compound loaded" ) design. Craig's Vandy 5's use a variation of this design along with active equalization to achieve excellent in-room response. Vented designs ( ported, slot loaded, passive radiator, etc... ) TYPICALLY suffer from poor definition, lack of punch, thicker and muddier sound, etc... This has to do with their measurably poorer transient response and increased ringing. As mentioned, there are exceptions to the rule IF the designers have done their homework. Vented designs, as a general rule, will show higher levels of output and greater low frequency extension. This is typically achieved at the expense of "speed", "pitch" and "definition" though. As George mentioned, "pitch" or "tone" of bass is also very important. Driver size, excursion and how it loads into the room DOES matter. Front loaded designs will produce the most "punch" but also the highest distortion and ability to localize. Downloaded designs are easier to place, harder to localize and produce less "apparent" distortion. Unless the sub comes with a pre-mounted loading plate, you can fine tune the amount of output, extension and "pitch" of the bass by varying the distance from the driver to the floor. The down-side to downloading is that the drivers are typically of limited excursion and will suffer very noticeable "suspension sag" with age. They are also more prone to blowing up due to reduced power handling because of the natural "driver sag" that takes place. Dipole radiators ( identical drivers mounted on opposite sides of the cabinet ) can produce notably smoother in room response but are also typically lower impedance. This gives twice the radiating area and excursion capabilities when compared to one driver, but you've also got twice the reflected emf and a low impedance to deal with. The same goes for subs with several woofers. Impedance of a passive sub should be taken into consideration. A lower impedance may offer greater power output capability from an SS amp, but it would have to work a lot harder ( and run hotter ) in doing so. Keep in mind that a lower impedance also reduces damping factor, making the driver harder to control. Very low impedances or very large excursion woofers require BAZILLIONS of watts to control and work best. Sub cabinets should be deader than dead when you give them the "knuckle test". Otherwise their cabinets will resonate and "clog up" or "congest" the mid-bass, upper bass and lower midrange region. This makes blending very difficult as you typically end up with a sound that is "too thick" and easy to localize no matter what you try. Take a look at Scott's ( Sdcambell ) excellent post about the Widescreen review subwoofer "shoot-out". If you can, try to pick up a copy of this magazine as it gives a LOT of data on the subs that they tested and others that they didn't. Hope this helps... Sean > |
To "piggyback" on the comments by Craig (Garfish), don't overlook the Vandersteen 2WQ sub. I recently added a pair of them (they are intended for use as a stereo pair) to my Vandy 3A Sig's (a reasonably full-range speaker with good response to about 30 Hz), and can highly recommend them. Because the Vandy 2WQ subs come with their own crossover, and are adjustable for both "Q" and efficiency, they are easy to integrate with just about speaker. Both subs have built-in 300 wpc amps as well. In a post I made 3-4 months ago which summarized the subwoofer tests performed by Widescreen Review magazine, the Vandy subs (both the 2WQ and the V2W) were among the highest rated models. You can often find the Vandy subs for sale on A-gon for around $800-850 (infact, there is one currently listed). |
Very interesting read, here. I had a storm3 it did wonders for my Aerial 10s. When I changed to Montana ESPs I never liked what the sub was doing;and sold it. I certainly concur; bass improvement is found in ALL the components that make up your system.--For me it was more the "tone" of the bass that mattered most to me. I have read threads by people whom have 6 subs.So, yes, we have our special,but different priorities. Tone of bass being mine. |
I'm having good results with Sunfire subwoofers. I know Bob Carver is controversial and often disparaged in the high end community, but his engineering is sound. His True Subs are tight, fast, and go low enough for me. I have a pair of True Sub Signatures supplementing a pair of WATT/Puppy 6s well in the low bass. I have a True Sub Mark II under a pair of Red Rose R3s, and the sub works in the low to mid bass. For this location, it sounds better than the REL Strata Mark II that it replaced. I have a True Sub Junior working with a pair of Proac 1 SCs, and this is effective in the mid bass but not really in the low bass. (The Proacs are in an installation that would not accomodate a sub bigger than the Juniors.) The fact that all these subs are as small as they are is important to the rooms where they are located. |