I just spent hours moving my Sopra 2’s with them sitting on the Townshend’s podiums #3. I kept intense measurements. My speakers are 115" from the woofer center to the other speaker woofer. I am sitting at that same distance from the L&R speakers’ middle centerline. They are 37" from the sidewalls to the sidewalls of the speaker.
I used one of those air bladder wedges that are used for lifting car doors and lifted each leg individually of the Townshend podium just enough to slide a furniture mover/disc under each leg.
What I found is that I prefer no Toe-In. That is, I prefer the speakers straight out into the room.
@ozzymy room is very peculiar which of course only makes the matter worse: it's a long shallow rectangle, divided by pillars that create four "spaces" (living room, dining room, bedroom, kitchen) but everything is open. For practical reasons the speakers are on the long wall of the living room section, against the wall; my listening sofa is on the opposite wall (literally against it :-( ) and, the way the speakers are positioned, there are no 1st reflections on side walls because the side walls are too far; the first reflections are the wall behind my head. You can imagine what an acoustic nightmare it can become. The huge fabric sofa actually helps a lot in taming some of the issues, and I added a few panels but I need to be cautious as, just like speaker placement, every added acoustic panels brings benefits AND issues. Having Horns in such a space actually helps, I think, at least in theory, but their sheer size makes it impossible to try them firing down the length of the space: they would block the passage and block the light (only windows are at each extremity).
The positive of that space is that it used to be a garage and my closest neighbors are offices, with makes it possible to listen very late and during the weekends at realistic levels.
Very good post. Do you have any side (first) reflection panels? That may help dial in the soundstage better and then keep your speakers in the area where the bass is the best.
My speakers are fully horn loaded, with a 90 degrees directivity radius, in a room that is arguably too small for them. I insist on keeping them because they're a 20 years DIy development and they are "my babies" plus I'm just renting the place and will probably move to a different place at some point. But in the current room, placement and toe-in are a real PITA... half an inch or a single degree of toe-in change the presentation completely. Finding the right positioning requires a lot of sweat and tears as the location that gives the smoothest response isn't the one that gives the best imaging, and so on. Too much toe-in and you feel like you're listening sitting in giant earphones, OK for rock but very unnatural for anything else; not enough and it's wide and airy but lacks solidity in the center. Currently I have them in an equilateral triangle and very very slightly toed-in; this gives me the best compromise I feel, with a nice smooth midrange and well defined left to right panning but depth could be much better; also upper bass suffers a little and lacks punch (crazy for a pair of horn-loaded 15inch!) but I chose to sacrifice that. Locations that give me hard hitting, super dynamic bass suffer in midrange smoothness and gets too much "in your face".
All in all it's still very enjoyable and musical but I keep fantasizing about hearing them in the right room. I had them in a very large room in the past, but I've made some upgrades recently and never got to hear those as it should; but that's life!
Placement guides are ok but use them only as a starting point. There is probably an infinite number of variables.
The best overall approach, at least to me, is, to experiment. When you hit the right placement, it all locks into place. You will know it. So don’t be afraid to move the speakers around and take good notes.
There is one missing pioce of info on this thread that affects toe in or no toe in: the off axis reposnse of the speaker itself. If the dispersion is very consistent, across the midrange and tweeter, you can live with less toe in as the off axis sounds pretty much like on axis. But if it varies significantly, say a bullet tweeter and cone midrange, the dispersion varies greatly and this doesnt work especially off axis. The test is pink noise: sit diretly in front and then move off to the side. DIfferent? Or not?
Someone mentioned vertical dispersion and this is important too. You must be on axis with this as the combined output of the tweeter and mid at crossover narrows the vertical dispersion quite a bit.
This horizontal off axis has one other important affect, reflections. If the reflections have a different response than direct/on axis, it can be a mess for imaging. When these on axis ouput and off axis reflections combine you get weird cancellations and the image suffers.
Anyone bought Paul McGowan’s new book, “The Audiophile’s Guide: The Loudspeaker?” I recently purchased it with the SACD. Not a bad read and if anything it refreshes what most of us probably already know. Haven’t messed with it yet but I’m going to start from scratch and follow Paul’s thorough instruction with the disc to hear what happens. I’ll tape off where my speakers are currently to compare. My equipment is all between my speakers, which Paul does not recommend, so I’m going to move it off to the side but keep my amps, on their stands, in the middle but back closer to the front wall. We’ll see…
I typically have very little toe-in if any. Trick is I think if your speakers are not too far apart to run them with little or no-toe in which the stage should appear to extend beyond the speakers and even the width of the room; speakers farther apart, closer to sidewalls then the stage narrows.
Once you get it locked in, it really creates a very satisfying sound. You never know how good your system can sound until you find that spot, as frustrating as that project is. 👍...
Once you get it locked in, it really creates a very satisfying sound. You never know how good your system can sound until you find that spot, as frustrating as that project is.
ozzy
Which, extrapolated out, means the women are speakers too.
Once you get it locked in, it really creates a very satisfying sound. You never know how good your system can sound until you find that spot, as frustrating as that project is.
Others have posted that toe-in/toe-out are more about the room than the speakers, or rooms that are more reflective/less reflective.
That's not been my experience. My dedicated room is acoustically treated on all four walls and the ceiling, with a thick rug on the wood floor. Reflective it's definitely not.
My Vandersteen 2Ce Sig IIs demanded toe-in due to the very narrow dispersion pattern of the tweeters. They also demanded that ears be lower than the tweeters.
My B&W 803 D3s (in the same positions, in the same room) make no such demands, though they do sound their best by a very slight margin with toe-in, and are ambivalent how high or low my ears are.
My experience is the speakers dictate toe-in/toe-out, not the room.
My best friends in speaker positioning have been multidirectional laser levels. Some good models can be bought for under USD $200 each.
Having 2-3 multidirectional units makes things even quicker. I don’t find unidirectional laser levels as helpful, and spirit levels can’t well apply in my use case.
The difficult part of all of this is the size, weight and shape of the speakers. It's not as easy as just measuring the sides etc. The Sopra 2's really have an exotic shape.
I have tried to zero in on exactly the same distances, side to side, distance to front wall, toe in, and listening position. I think I have it!
Funny though, just moving one dimension can throw off the other distances.
Congrats to you for sticking with it- my room was pretty challenging so I hired an acoustic analyst to work it out. Thought I’d send this your way though- similar to what has been discussed previously but with a little less ratio. I prefer a 1.1 ratio in my setup.
You're not "there" until you adjust the RAKE of your speakers. The vertical orientation can certainly be enlightening. Case in point (pun intended): MartinLogan hybrids...
The center image does actually move around depending on the recording. Sometimes one of the instruments will switch sides too,maybe an accident when mixing. I am either cursed or blessed with a square room. One of my speakers is toed out ! slightly and the other one straight ahead. Looks strange but sounds wonderful.Each speaker is pointed towards a doorway.
“Where I originally had my speakers, the vocals seemed to be a little fuller. (If my memory is correct). Now, with little toe in, they seem to be a little thinner sounding, but the soundstage is wider, and details are more apparent.
Which is correct? Or the best? I’ll keep fiddling.
ozzy”
Heyya Ozzy,
Hopefully no issue for me to revive this thread - seems a very good question went unanswered.
Which soundstage (wide vs. deep) is best or correct? Easy - whichever is most enjoyable, as judged by you. Indecisiveness is a key enemy here, lol!
The real question: how consistent among all your recorded music are your preferences in sonic imagery characteristics? I’d hazard a guess of “below 100%” ;)
Uh oh, so much for “Easy”!
To keep sane on spacing / distance / toe-in, I remind myself that speaker placement measurements and ratios should theoretically differ from album to album, or even among “pressings” of one album if remasters are involved. Heck, some of the more digitally manipulated recordings seem to vary among tracks on the same album in how “effectively” things are staged by speakers’ positioning.
My speakers don’t provide the most pinpoint imaging, but they do shine a glaring light on any studio panning oddities. The toe-in that sounds great to me on some recordings is far from ideal on others. Thankfully, I don’t think most speakers made for one MLP will be such divas in this way. Still, we might be mistaken if we adopt a one-positioning-fits-all-recordings mindset. It would be a bit like assuming one-volume setting-fits-all-recordings mindset, yeah? Sigh, some complications are unavoidable even with the best of tech.
In my case, those Townshend podiums would never work without extreme customization, so at least I have that part of my back-and-forth considerations simplified, ha!
To be honest, I hate futzing with speakers. My approach is to just make a little move every few weeks. If negative…. Back immediately.
if I don’t force a slower approach, I end up in a frenzied dervish of activity, wanting to get it over with and concerned I will end up with the system sounding worse than when I started.
Ideally, you want to talk a couple friends into spending two or three afternoons moving them for you while you relax and listen… without having to get up. I’m not sure what you would have to do to bribe them. I would feel so guilty, I would never allow myself time to actually make good judgements.
So, I removed the Sopra’s from the Townshend stands, it is just too hard to move them while on the stands.
I do believe I have zero’d in the soundstage!
What I have found is, again, I prefer no toe in. But it has been interesting. I used the 1/5 rule for centering the woofers from the sidewalls. But I liked a slightly different distance from the wall behind the speakers.
I also found that my room is not exactly rectangular, that is probably why I have had so much trouble.
Now I have the center image locked in, I think can feel Linda Ronstadt noise hairs!
As always: it depends. All other things equal a front baffle design upon toe-in does three things: it increases treble as treble is directionally radiating from the cone; it shifts the first reflection point further into the room which in turn affects standing bass waves as well as sound stage and -if the speaker has a bass reflector on the rear- it changes reflection from back wall to both sides of the corner. The effect of the latter can be significant but all three cannot be determined without knowing rhe specific room acoustics. Finally all of this may or may not have been accounted for by the manufacturer, so I am afraid my opening statement applies!
Where I originally had my speakers, the vocals seemed to be a little fuller. (If my memory is correct). Now, with little toe in, they seem to be a little thinner sounding, but the soundstage is wider, and details are more apparent.
Which is correct? Or the best? I’ll keep fiddling.
True. And a lot of work. Spending a lot of time that we could otherwise use to enjoy the music. But don't give up. Stay with it. Amazing things can be accomplished by speaker (and listening chair) positioning. And it's free! Lots of trial and error. A UMIK-1 and REW (and a laptop) can help even further, in addition (obviously) to using your ears.
I played with toe-in and distance from my chair the last couple of days after reading this thread. I wound up with a little less toe-in, a little further apart and sitting a little closer. Not a big change in any one spot, BUT, wow I think I really have it dialed in. I will give it a few more days, but I do think this is the best my system has sounded, ever. Thanks to all that contributed to the discussion.
My soundstage is always naturally to the left because of room shape, but my amp has gain trim controls for both channels, so I just trim the left channel more to get it centered. Maybe your preamp has a pan L/R knob?
This can be a maddening process. I researched many online demos and used various calculators showing where to place the speakers based on room dimensions. Most would put my speakers way too far into the room in both distance from back and side walls. Cardas method 1/3 or 1/5 Golden Ratio....etc.
So, I am still moving and trying. What I am having the most trouble is with the center image. Sometimes it seems to shift a little to the right. Do I move the speaker out/back, sideways...uggh! I have also noticed that not all recordings are centered.
I suppose mono recordings is the best to use.
BTW, even though the Townshends podiums under the speakers makes moving them around very difficult, I would not want to be without them. They are that important.
I have the speaker bars. Max Townshend told me the were as efficient as the Podiums but not as easy to install and manage the the right position under the speakers. Aesthetically they are less fancy but the price is more friendly.
I too find I prefer slight toe-in. As @ozzyfound I found that the soundstage becomes flat when the tweeters are pointing directly at me. Some speaker mfr’s recommended having the tweeters line of fire cross about 2-3 ft behind the listening position. I find the soundstage opens up and the off-axis response is better when it crosses WAY further behind the listening position however. Interestingly I don’t notice too much else changing with my B&W 802’s beyond this, as I mess with toe-in. I don’t notice any change in frequency response from the sweet spot, as toe-in is changed. I guess that has to do with the drivers being consistent across their wide dispersion range.
Currently my walls are being painted after I had dedicated AC lines installed (woo-hoo!). So my system is dismantled and covered in protective sheets right now. After the painter is done by Saturday, I plan to reconfigure my couch to be closer to my system - will try a closer configuration to an equilateral triangle with the speakers moved out further from the wall (was previously 20” of clearance behind the speakers). I will try the 1 to 1.2 ratio referenced above. For me this means speakers will be 7ft between tweeters and 8.4 ft from tweeter to ear. I might also try being even closer to the speakers. I find as I move back in my room, I lose some of the crisp upper frequency detail that I hear when I am closer.
Some very interesting and helpful comments, thank you.
I'm still experimenting. I am leaning towards a very slight toe in. The Focal Sopra's are very difficult to measure distances from the walls due to them not having any real straight lines.
I think the idea of re-checking again after a few months is a good one. Not that I think the speakers will move (duh) but my preference may change.
Definitely trial and error. Since I read that horn speakers were directional or "beamy". So I sit about as far away as the distance to my center of the speakers.. The speakers are toed in and pointing just over my shoulder.
I’ve read and use in my system a triangle ratio of tweeter to tweeter =1 and tweeter to ear should be about 1.2. Sounded better than an equilateral triangle. No toe in for me either.
@ghdprenticeFor what it's worth to you, the arrangements of the OP and my own speakers relative to the listening position isn't actually an equilateral triangle. If it were, the measurement from listening position to the perpendicular line between speaker midpoints would be 86.6% of the distance between speaker midpoints. In both of our cases, it was 100%. Fascinatingly coincidental.
Well, this should be interesting. I have Daedalus Audio speakers on the way, should arrive on Friday (model Apollo 11, newest version, V-3). Just sold my Dynaudio Contour 60i speakers. The Daedalus speakers have the front baffle slightly canted (toed) and keeping the back of the speaker square with the front wall is recommended. I will begin with that and over time make a few adjustments. As ghdprentice stated, "the toe-in is worth the search, changing it a bit, wait a while, then try something else". I'm looking forward to the process. This is a fun hobby and passion.
The equilateral triangle is a thing…. True more often then not.
The toe-in worth the search. Nothing wrong with being lazy for six months… then changing it a bit. Wait a while… then try something else. I am lazy… but over time, your system will sound amazingly better… the cost is really low.
Out of curiosity, I just measured my loudspeaker vs listening position and, coincidentally, found it is exactly the same ratio as the OP. It happens to be precisely 1:1 --> the distance between woofer centers and the distance from the drivers’ centerline to listening position. This ratio wasn’t intentional as I hadn’t measured it in that way recently, I was only using preferred positioning based on listening tests.
My toe-in is also the same: none. Speakers disappear with zero toe-in and imaging is optimal, and as toe-in degree increases, even a little bit, their location is more revealed. Center image with my speakers isn’t terribly disrupted by toe-in, but it does compress and overall breadth shrinks.
I'm using Townshend Seismic Bars, and thankfully their felt bottoms are super easy to slide around on my hardwood floor.
Yeah, I think all the rules as to speaker placement should just be considered as a starting point. We still need to experiment. Moving heavy speakers on stands like the Townshends is near impossible. But trying to place the Sopra's in the right spot while off the stands gave a different result. And needed To-In. Thus the need to be able to move them around on the stands.
I have tried the spikes that the Sopra’s came with, then Stillpoints and then the Gaia 1’s. They were an improvement over the ones provided with the Sopra’s, but the Townshends podiums are revolutionary. Do they justify the cost? For me they do.
I wish I was inclined to fiddle and tweak my placement to the Nth degree. If I have an expert guiding me I might. I had my Vandersteens pointed straight ahead for a long time (on the long wall, about 18" out from the front wall and 30" from side walls. My dealer suggested much more toe-in and it did seems to make an improvement but not radical. I think my ears need more training!
@ozzy - HOW do you like the Townshend podiums? I have a very live floor, and these appeal to me to isolate my speakers from the floor. Very expensive, to my mind (50% of the cost of my speakers) so I am reluctant unless the benefit would be significant. THX
The general recommendation for my speakers Sonus Faber Amati Traditional) is to the “cross the beams” 18” behind the sweet spot. In my room that causes a very restricted soundstage. They sound best with no toe in, just like yours,
Oh, BTW, the air bladders were purchased from Amazon. A very useful tool when needing to move (lift) large heavy speakers (on stands) with the help of the furniture sliders.
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