I have a very lively room. Tile floors, large window and open area. If you clap there is a loud echo. Furniture is limited. I set up Kef LS50w and the sound is recessed not forward. The room is 26 x13 and even up close it doesn't sound good. Is it the room? What should I do ? Wife acceptance factor comes into play.
Change rooms, go to smaller, dedicated room for music, where you will have better control of more variables.
Change furnishings, floor covering, wall treatment, in the large room. Secure meaningful compromise with wife, and change speaker placement, moving them closer to the front wall.
Go to a headphone system. Spend less money, get better sound, and leave the room alone. Invest in a special chair.
Have you tried putting in four or five large leafy plastic plants? Scatter a few of them around the room, particularly along the wall behind and between the speakers. The leaves act as small diffusers. Works well for me. And it's 1/10th the price of audio diffusers and sound absorption accessories.
You’re screwed, big throw rug with padding beneath, heavy drapes you can close when listening, subs to compliment the speakers might have you playing back at lower volume which can tame the reflections.
@kenjit C'mon, one doesn't need to go 'stone cold' on the OP...he Knows he's got 'issues'...:(
Better...Rugs, drapes, plants, anything to damp the echos down... ...and keep the spouse in a 'happy place'. *S* She might welcome an opportunity to decorate with your *ah* 'guidance'... ;)
New speakers can come later...they may be about the same amount of $ in the end as the decor but they're more likely to be tolerated 'better' later....
(After nearly 40 years, one learns how to approach such....*L*)
GIK is a good call, but....won't be as acceptable as nice fluffy rug...
Ear plugs, it will address the speakers and wife : ) Just kidding!!! Room treatment will go a long way to help and a rug would improve the sound immensely as Steve59 points out
There is no doubt whatsoever that it is the room. Tile floors and large glass windows is tough to work with. Curtains over windows will help along with an large area rug over the tile and lots of furniture, lamps, plants, etc. Anything to break up the sound. Since you talked about wife acceptance factor I doubt wall treatments and bass traps would be acceptable. Move to a smaller carpeted room
One of the general concepts I've heard for room treatment is to treat one each of the opposing walls. Making the wall opposite the speakers less reflective seems like a good way to start. Rugs are awesome too, + and + to above comments.Are your speakers on the long wall or the short wall?
select-hifi, talking of which, when I've been comparing two different audio receivers ( from this website: https://chooserator.com/compare-av-receivers ) models called Marantz SR7011 and Yamaha RX-A3070BL - I've chosen the most functional, which in my opinion Yamaha is. It can demonstrate really powerful and dynamic, but at the same time soft sound.
My living room is about the same size as yours and speakers that play very well in the smaller second bedroom (10 x 15) that we use as a den, sound awful in the living room.
You need bigger speakers with bigger woofers that take control of the space. I am using now Zu Audio DWs (Dirty Weekend) and they work very well in the space. My wife has complimented their sound and she is not one to comment one way or the other.
Not certain what is available where you live (the Portugal is throwing me a bit). But start with floorstanders with 8 inch woofers, that have some oomph/ pushing power to them.
First cut off the bass from the LS50W and use one or two small dedicated subs with good room correction software. Martin Logan has new interesting subs with ARC room correction. The LS50W are fine speakers but don't let them play bass below 100hz. Just destroys the music. Good advice treating the room.
I certainly would leave any room in which those speakers were playing. /You are describing a digital amp. Try class A/B with speakers from a manufacturer targeting critical listeners.
I have a similar situation. I've done the best I can without compromising my room appearance too much but I know it's not ideal. Much of my listening is background so I'm ok. Jim Smith's book, "Get Better Sound" will help you a lot. Most of his info is about room set up. IMHO, get advice here, take your time and tweak as you can. Good luck. Doug
Been there, done that! Kenjit and others are absolutely correct.
Room correction will only do so much. You may as well tape those LS50’s to the sides of your head. You will never get sufficient bass from them.
Small monitors and skinny little towers shine for those audiophiles who sit in the sweet spot by themselves. Sure they’re a great speaker for experiencing the soundstage however for parties, gatherings or just walking around your home and listening to tunes they are cold with no umphh. Sorry.
How do I know? Experience. I’ve owned B&W towers. See if any of this sounds familiar.
to achieve low-end you’ve turned up the volume until the high-end is screeching in your ears
moving speakers does nothing
Adding subwoofers will give you low sloppy bass but will not integrate well. You will find it does not help your mid-bass. Will not give you balanced sound.
How about room correction? Room correction will help to reduce frequency cancelation giving you a smoother base response and less muddled highs. Will bring you no satisfaction.
Do you require a new room? Ridiculous.
What you want? You want to play anything through your system and have it sound great at any volume. Right?
Sell your LS50’s while the reviews are still positive.
Get full range speakers. Read up on Klipsch Forte and Kipsch Cornwall for a start.
Put down carpet.
Get wife who lets you enjoy your music hobby. Haha. No really.
I would have try for speaker placement first, and don't give too soon. OTOH, you can't change physics, and maybe the room is too tough of a situation to be handled speaker placement alone. Like many of us here, I have owned a number of speakers over the years and expect each set to have some good and bad about it. In general, I have to agree that the speaker needs to be 'sized' right for the room. No hurt in trying this pair in another room (smaller).
... I wasted too much money on room correction when I still had to replace speakers in the end. Do room correction, yes, but don’t go nuts until you get some worthy speakers. No speaker is too large. In fact I listen at a lower volume with large speakers.
I had similar room problems: ceramic tile around the fireplace, an opening to the foyer on one side, windows, etc.
Based on my experience ("your mileage may vary"), I wouldn't change anything until the room was at least somewhat under control. I'm using a combination of GIK Alpha Panels and Bass Traps with range limiters. Don't count out diffusion! I chose absorption plus diffusion after trying the Alpha Panels both ways (they can be ordered with cloth on both sides so they can be turned around for either pure absorption or absorption plus diffusion)
I also used a calibrated USB microphone and REW software to really see what I was dealing with, and sent the data to GIK for advice. But clapping your hands and listening to the echo to gauge relative changes works, too.
(I have no business relationship with GIK! I'm just a satisfied customer.)
I'm not at all a fan of the LS50. I had a pair, and
even with an all tube system (also tried solid state), the highs could burn your ears out. This was before the room was treated, but in direct comparison to other speakers under the same conditions (JR 149 - cousin of the LS3/5A, Sony SS-M7) they were extremely bright even after trying their matching stands, different room placements, etc. They've received numerous glowing reviews, so maybe I was doing something wrong, but I just couldn't get them to sound good.
Lots of misinformation here. I would guess that I have more experience with LS50W’s than anyone who has commented on this thread.
Treat your room! Get the wife excited to pick out your treatments from GIK. Get the art panels or the new panels that have the wood faces. Look online at what people have done. Get creative with colors and shapes and the way you piece them / join them together on your walls. Get a nice, big, fluffy rug made out of natural fibers, not poly.
Treating your room will make your room a more enjoyable place to be even when not listening to music. It is easier to understand speech and conversations in a treated room. Don’t move your set-up. Make it more enjoyable for everyone in the bigger, living room.
Pull the LS50W’s out from the back wall and out from any sidewalls. Adjust the settings under DSP. LS50W’s are phenomenal speakers when positioned properly, adjusted correctly with the dsp, and the room is treated a little bit.
They also take 200 hours of playtime before the harsh, bright edgy sound relaxes and they come into their own. Let them play quietly overnight or during the day while no one is home.
Paired with a sub or two, they are exceptional and would knock the socks off any of your friends. The waf is high on the LS50. She might file for divorce if you brought some big clunky wooden boxes into the room that looked like they were styled in the 70’s and 80’s (insert Klipsch).
And if it mattered at all, the LS50W has a class A/B amp on the tweeter. The crossover is handled in the digital domain as well, which can be beneficial. It’s a point source design with exceptional phase timing and coherency. The imaging and dispersion is exceptional.
LS50W’s rock. Don’t give up on them until you have played them for 200 hours, placed them properly, set them up properly with the dsp and treated your room. Remember, room treatments will benefit any future speaker should you decide to sell the LS50W’s.
I do t know how people call the LS50 bright I have had mine from the beginning and mine never sounded bright I don’t even have a hi end system I use my apex peak volcano hybrid headphone amp and pre amp with a 150 watt NAD amp and a balanced Havana tune DAC from day one never sounded bright if any of them do is their synergy with your other equipment! they are in my bedroom rig and I will never get rid of them! Fantastic speakers for the money. Also why would the reviews change , that makes no sense. If they change is because people just want new stuff. I am not saying I don’t like new stuff but it is silly and makes no sense.
I would start with treating the upper and lower corners of the room. Eliminating Echo slap will provide significant reduction of artifacts.
I was in a reverberant space years ago with high ceilings and many corners. Even using the very small and thin Roomtune corner traps fixed a tremendous amount of the problem
As suggested already, curtains over the window is a no brainer since it will be aesthetic as well. A nice Persian rug looks great and may help.
With those basics done, you can listen then decide what other areas to treat.
As mentioned, you should get the speakers away from the rear walls.
If you end up with decent results, then consider upgrading to a more appropriate speaker. No use doing so unless and until you improve the room.
Maybe get rid of current wife. Order one dozen big fat ones on-line. Place one in each corner, 2 per side at first reflection points and the rest on the floor between you and the speakers.
Face them inwards for better dispersion or outwards for more bottom end.
Seriously, you will have no happiness in that room without treating the acoustics, no matter the speaker chosen.
@b_limo posted some useful stuff and is correct about the misinformation being given out. Plastic pot plants will not help in any meaningful way. I have posted a few times with advice gained from study and experience which I won't repeat here because there is a lot to be said.
Get an inexpensive mic. and download a free app from Holm Impulse or REW and measure your room instead of guessing. Educating yourself in matters acoustic will reward with treatments that actually help unlike wall to wall carpet or hanging drapes everywhere. These just soak up a narrow band of high frequencies, reducing them disproportionately while the rest of the spectrum are unaffected and remain bouncing around the room with overly long decay smearing and confusing.
DIY is fun and easy and allows you to choose fabric to suit the decor and you are also able to build true broad-band absorbers instead of the lesser ones sold commercially which need to be smaller for shipping.
What works extremely well is an overhead 'cloud' This can be a large frame at least 150mm (6") deep filled with OC 703 and suspended at least 100mm below the ceiling. I helped a friend with such a unit which was finished with concealed strip lights and the whole thing looked classy. The addition was transformative.
I have the LS50 not the LS50W so my take may not be correct. My LS50’s are in my small treated (with GIK panels) room, 12x11x9 and it sounds great, but without good bass. It is easy to see why the former editor of Stereophile uses them as his reference. However, when I have heard these same speakers in a bigger room they suffered in sound. Maybe your DSP capable LS50W are facing physical limits to what they can do in your big room.
You can easily go up in speaker monitor size and fill that room of yours. Some suggestions for this, that are similar to the LS50 sound but even better are the following:
TAD ME1 ($15K) KEF Reference 1 ($5K used and really good) Vivid Kaya S12 (not released yet, no price given, but I would want to hear this one)
Vivid Kaya 45 (floor stander but small) Paradigm Persona 3F (floor stander) Magico A3 (floor stander)
I love my LS50’s and the above mentioned speakers are what I demoed and considered to replace them in my small room (of course have not heard the Vivid Kaya S12)
I decided on the Yamaha NS 5000 as my final choice. They don’t sound like the LS50 but I wanted something out of left field for my office. They need a bigger room like yours for easy placement, but I know how to make it work in my small room with a lot more work.
There are plenty of integrated amps, like the new Hegel 390 ($6k), that require only 1 box to get you streaming digital.
There are also bigger active DSP speakers like the Kii and the Dutch and Dutch that are maybe an easier turn key solution for you. These guys are similar to the LS50W but should have tons more bass.
Room. Fixed the acoustics and you’ll get so much more from your system. Have it tested to know where the nodes are and what specific frequencies need to be tamed. Absorb or diffuse? Big difference. Get that right. I hate the way most acoustic treatments look. Went to Artnovion. Best looking highly specific treatment. Lower cost “tunable” alternative is ASC traps. Sometimes available used. Good place to start
To add to my previous post, the LS50W’s have waaay more bass than the passive LS50’s. I actually preferred the bass response of the LS50W over the passive LS50’s and Rel T9i sub. Neither speaker has much, if any, punch. They are smooth, detailed, image like crazy and allow you to peel back layers of music that you may not of heard before, but they will not thump you in your chest. If you’re looking for a speaker that delivers impact and large scale dynamics, you may want to look at other speakers. My advice would be to buy a good sub, preferably 2, if not 4 (for a swarm set-up), cross the LS50W’s over around 80hz, and set up the dsp settings to your preference. Buy room treatments and spend some time setting up and dialing in the LS50W’s.
Thank you all for your thoughts . I pulled them out from the back wall, which is a window, and that has helped. Next step is a rug for the area when , I’m listening. . I’ll keep you posted. Brian
Usually little speakers in a large echo chamber sound tinny so there maybe something else wrong. I agree with the recommendation for a smaller room (or larger speakers and a rug.)
Still need to try my omega xrs3 and vr1s. That will tell me if it’s the room or speakers. It maybe as mijostyn suggests the speakers are too small for the open space. The bass is fine it’s the miss and treble that sound lost. I’m listening to 7 rings by Adriana grande and it sound okay as background music but nothing I enjoy. I know it’s the room with these speakers. Too much open space. Listening area is small but lots of open space behind and to the side .
Hi everyone, no surprise to everyone that the room is the problem.i sold my kegs and the new buyer is delighted. I hooked up my omegas and they were fantastic. You could still hear a liveliness but it worked much better than my other speakers. I’d like to try spatials but keep trying to tremendous myself that the omegas have always been the sound I like. But I still have would like to try the lrs and spatials. The spatials are expensive... compared to the other two. Amp needs are different also.
Hi everyone, no surprise to anyone that the room is the problem.i sold my ls50w and the new buyer is delighted. I hooked up my omegas 3xrs and they were fantastic. You could still hear a liveliness of the room but it worked much better than my other speakers. I’d like to try spatials but keep trying to remind myself that the omegas have always been the sound I like. Great sparkle, female vocals are great. But I still have would like to try the magnepan LRS and spatials sapphire 5 . The spatials are expensive... compared to the other two. Amp needs are different also.
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