I ended up using Symposium Rollerblock Jr’s in place of the springs. It was a revelation! Use both, that’s what I’ve been using for awhile now with great results. I had custom roller blocks made locally based on well known existing designs. The latest version from Ingress were not designed yet/available at the time I made mine but these are basically what I had made . These look to be of excellent quality and the mirror finish is a bit better than mine (which is important). My sandwich is 4 springs on the shelf/platform > .75 mdf > 3 roller blocks (open face) > .5 marble (polished side down) > component. I have been wanted to try a symposium svelt shelf or equiv in place of the marble, but haven’t got around to that. Its key that the total weight compresses the spring close to its max load. |
mwinkc, I have that record. Lots of fun. I think they stuck the microphone in the kettle drum, makes my windows rattle.
Isolating any turntable from the environment is essential for the best playback. The springs act as a mechanical filter. All frequencies above the resonance frequency of the system will not get through to the turntable. All frequencies below will get through. This is why the recommended resonance frequency is below 3 Hz. If you have ever played with an AR turntable or the LP12 that is pretty wobbly if not done right. Both these turntables use exactly the same suspension design. It was a good start but there was substantial room for improvement. Sota made the first stable suspended table in 1980 or so then came Basis and SME. All these tables have chassis that are hung from springs instead of sitting on them. The Solid Tech Feet of Silence are the best aftermarket springs I have seen if your table is not too heavy. The feet are hung from their springs. They offer two spring rates and two different kits of either three or four feet. Any turntable that is not already suspended should benefit.
The next evolution is suspension design is MinusK's negative stiffness design. It isolates down to 1 Hz remaining reasonably stable.
It was designed for delicate lab gear like Scanning electron microscopes.
I find it interesting that lab gear that is totally electronic does not require isolation. |
My nobsound spring isolation feet arrived Sunday, late afternoon. I got them, hoping to alleviate some subwoofer influence on my turntable. I'd noticed some subtle muddyness in louder bass passages with vinyl that I did not detect when streaming the same tracks.
After reading several reviews and discussions, I assembled the feet with only 3 of the possible 7 springs in each foot to accommodate the 20lb weight of my Technics TT.
For starters, I chose Boz Scaggs' album "Dig" which has several bass-heavy tracks including:
"Payday", "Miss Riddle", "I Just Go" and "Thanks to You".
The tracks still had good dynamic range, but the low end was less muddy or boomy...revealing better detail.
Classical music was better too....
STRAVINSKY: THE FIREBIRD SUITE (1919 VERSION)ATLANTA SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA AND CHORUSROBERT SHAW, CONDUCTOR has passages where the bass and kettle drums come on strong. The accompanying woodwinds and echoes of the hall are more noticeable now.
Don't have any "cons" to report as of yet...still listening for any issues.
I copied the album info, so forgive the all caps! By the way, this Telarc version of the Firebird Suite is outstanding. Some of the best orchestral reproduction I've heard. At times, startling realism.
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I won't be mounting my Transmission Line woofer cabinets on springs any time soon or ever, thanks. I do go along with getting any speaker up off the floor by at least a few inches if it's a tall full-range type (to de-couple from the floor, you don't necessarily need a springy or spongy support) or by the typical stand if it's a 2-way monitor, but none of that applies to either of my two systems, since both are large planar types, one ESL and one Beveridge which is not quite a typical ESL.
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Relating to fine tuning the load by weight, you may want to consider using a suitably sized and shaped container appropriately filled with sand or crushed rock.
Good idea... :) |
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Relating to fine tuning the load by weight, you may want to consider using a suitably sized and shaped container appropriately filled with sand or crushed rock. |
**** If you don’t mind, what was the VPI HW19 MK4 with springs supported by?
What was under it please?****
rixthetrix, the table sat on either a maple shelf on a Target rack or a maple shelf on a Target wall rack/shelf. The table’s stock rubber feet had been replaced with BDR cones, same as those that replaced the stock spring suspension. A brief experiment with sorbothane pucks between table and shelf was...brief...no good. Both the stock spring suspension and the BDR cones were tried with the table on both the rack and the wall shelf. In both cases the BDR cones were much better and the differences between springs and cones were consistent with the table on either supporting surface. |
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I may experiment with a couple springs under my phono or DAC but they will have their work cut out to beat the current porcelain ex ham radio 1" inverted cones under them right now. They are perhaps the tool to use for a dac better than springs..... Thanks for the information.... |
I may experiment with a couple springs under my phono or DAC but they will have their work cut out to beat the current porcelain ex ham radio 1" inverted cones under them right now.
These cost about 50 cents a pop from eBay and gave an astounding change in the level of detail and drop in noise floor.
This was documented in a thread by myself quite some time ago now. |
Adding 6 Nob loose springs under the six tube phono amp brought improved clarity, musicality, vocal diction, speed and dimensional perception of instruments in the soundstage. BUT it reduced bass weight and enhanced upper mids to the point of coloration. They are not enough compressed..... The rate of compression must be adjusted around 1%..... On any springs application if i go with my experience with mine....My speakers rightly adjusted gives me the better natural timbre i ever had but it takes me few days of listening....The first sign that all is rightly adjusted is NOT first the clarity, it is the naturalness of timbre, at first this new clarity induce me in error..... To decide we must listen to instrument like violin higher notes to hear their timbre, etchy or natural, lacking body or not.... :) For turntable(i dont have one) mass loading the springs under the turntable, like recommended by rixthetrick, is the solution indeed....Then it is possible to adjust by varying the loading mass by ears around 1% ( + or -). Using prings is NOT a tweak.... It is one of the essential way to embed the gear in the mechanical dimension of his working use.... "Tweak" are minor refinement or not, not always necessary..... Springs are indispensable tool to embed any gear in their vibration/resonance dimension (mechanical)....Tweak can modify or adding something that is not always wished for ( like my "sandwiches" that were a tweak wanting to be a control method but lacking the power of springs to be one)....Controls methods for the embedding DONT ADD something, rather they put the gear in the best of his conditions to reach his optimal level....Springs are essential and dont change the tone of my speakers at all if they are rightfully adjusted, rather they reveal the TRUE color of my speakers under the condition where vibrations/ resonance are controlled... Tweak are a fad + or - useful, or an attempt , a bid + or - successful, springs are necessary tool to any speakers..... Just sayin for those who thinks lightly, or superficially ... :) A bought bunch of tweaks will never be a method of listening experiments.... |
So I had 12 springs removed from the ones under the turntable left over. And I had a bunch of 3/4" MDF disks that were cut out to make the Spring Things. So all I had to do was drill three 1/4" holes about 1/8" deep to make my own little Nobsound spring pods.
Three springs per pod is stable and just about perfect for the Herron phono stage. There were 3 sets of BDR Cones and Round Things under it. Swapped them out and heard huge warmth, massive extreme low bass, somewhat rolled off top end.
It was then I remembered mahgister saying how he tunes this by ear by varying the weight. Well adding springs would be equivalent and I had one more pod so in it went. Now with four pods the bass is still full but not exaggerated, the midrange still warm but more present and no longer the rolled off top end. It could probably be fine tuned even more but pretty impressive even as it is.
Good work, mahgister!
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@lewm - yes. RixTheTrick 09-05-2020 11:29am
Zero Stiffness is an ideal. I have mentioned Minus K in Agon before, and I am on their email list. They are very expensive. Their upright flexible pillars are an excellent means of controlling horizontal plane movement - a truly excellent product. I also have reservations about seating speakers on close to zero stiffness systems. And I have many times stated that broadening the base to accommodate the instability created by spring isolation is essential on tall loudspeakers with a narrow base. I have springs under my subwoofer with absolutely no issues. I have also suggested mass loading under turntables on top of springs as well. I would also suggest that for loudspeakers anything over 10Hz should be isolated, and a plynth for a turntable I think if I recall correctly 4-5Hz on a mass loaded plinth. @frogman I’ve been stating for sometime now that what you put your isolation system on is equally as important as the design of the isolation system. If you don’t mind, what was the VPI HW19 MK4 with springs supported by? What was under it please? |
Adding 6 Nob loose springs under the six tube phono amp brought improved clarity, musicality, vocal diction, speed and dimensional perception of instruments in the soundstage. BUT it reduced bass weight and enhanced upper mids to the point of coloration. I replaced the loose springs with 4 aluminum cones which brought things back. Bass returned but the improvements noted above faded. (The turntable is on springs.) Disappointed to lose the amazing clarity but frequency balance better. So it appears the phono prefers stability.
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I forget to say that refining the load around 1 % affect the frequencies so much that it is audible on the instrument timbre expression... I was listening violins when i discover that i was with 2 pounds overweight.... Adjusting it was spectacular in the sense that suddenly all timbre expression become more natural....
:)
Then pay much attention to the load or the number of springs or the design of the springs itself especially for a turntable but anyway for any applications.... The taking off springs will be too gross ajustement for most turntables...
I think that other springs will be better for most turntable, depending of their weight in relation to the springs diameter, turns, mass etc....
These springs can be very good with one turntable because of their measures numbers and size and numbers possible adjustment, and not so much with another turntable.... People must be conscious of this...
Springs adjustment to the load to isolate in relation to frequencies is really something necessary to compute....
It is more easy with a varying load on speakers to compute with the ears, than with a turntable and only the 7 varying number of springs to play with....
:)
We will need rixthetrick.... :)
But i dont have a turntable....:)
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UPDATE on my nobsound springs adjustment...
The adjustment by adding load is more delicate than i said at first ...
A difference of 2 pounds of load, not 4 pounds, on around 90 pounds of load in total, make a substantial difference in the high frequencies mostly but also all across the spectrum...
A little more than 1% variation in the load is critical....
Keeping off a number of springs from the 7 in the 4 boxes on each speakers would be a too much gross adjustement.... I prefer then with my speakers varying the damping slabs of concrete....For the last tweaking of the load i use 2 plaster book-end on each speakers because they weigh half the weight of a brick, around 2 pounds...
I think that would be very delicate for a turntable, because it is delicate and had take some listening time for my speakers....
One thing is sure, those that think mechanical embeddings makes a not so great difference, and are only an accidental secondary "tweak" would be surprized....
A "tweak" is only a minor addition, a minor refinement when it work; controlling the embeddings is not minor addition, it is a transformative major action on any audio system, be it mechanical, or electrical or acoustical....I am not interested by accidental "tweak" so much, i am interested by the method and the ways to embed the audio system and his parts..... |
This concept of "zero stiffness" is interesting. I have been reading the paper that was cited above. It seems in fact to be a theoretical ideal rather than a truly attainable state. But that's OK as a guide. From my experience with turntable supports, the Minus K comes closest to zero stiffness. If you can achieve what the Minus K achieves using only inexpensive commercially available springs or modified springs, you are a very patient person. I would still have more than reservations about seating a speaker on a support that had zero stiffness, especially in the horizontal plane.
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Thanks very useful indeed.....
My best..... |
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@frogman
+1. You may remember me talking about my many experiments with my VPI mkIV.
I ended up using Symposium Rollerblock Jr's in place of the springs. It was a revelation! |
@noromance I used leftover Nobs springs directly to good effect. Those Nobsound springs are quite small, aren’t they? If you play with the search tool on the Century Spring site, you can find larger diameter springs that may suit your needs, which should improve stability. The springs I used under my subs are 1.75 inches in diameter and the springs under my main speakers are 1.625 inches in diameter. I am looking at their S-3031 springs for my general electronics, which range from about 20 to 30 pounds each in total weight. OD of those springs is almost 1.3 inches so they should be quite stable. The free length is 1.0 inches and compression rate is 20#/inch so compressed at 5 pounds they would be 3/4 inch long in service. They are good for a maximum of 12 pounds each. This seems to offer a good, wide range size for my electronics, which are also somewhat mass loaded so total weight per spring will probably range from about 6 to 8 pounds. Unit price of the stainless steel S-3031 is $5.63 each so in the audiophile world that is a relatively benign $22-$28 per component. In comparison, Herbie’s Tenderfeet are $14 each. If you order, make sure you get closed/ground ends. |
@noromance , www.partsconnexion.comEvery now and then Chris has some SolidTech stuff on sale. Worth a look if you're interested. |
Great stuff from noromance and others; precisely the kind of thing this forum is supposed to be about, in substance and in style. Thanks.
My sole experience with springs has been the removal of the spring suspension in my previously owned VPI HW19 MK4 (TNT6, currently). My reasoning for that experiment was the following:
Most of our turntables rest on some sort of “isolation“ platform or device(s) which in turn rests on a rack/cabinet or wall shelf. Due to issues we all know about, mostly issues of resonance/energy transfer, whatever the table sits on becomes, in effect, part of the turntable. In the case of the HW19, four large(ish) springs, one in each corner of the “box”, suspend the metal top plate to which are secured the bearing/platter and tone arm. To my way of thinking, fundamentally, the box (plinth) acts no differently and serves the same purpose as do most of the isolation platforms or devices that we typically place under our turntables.
In this situation the removal of the four springs and their substitution with four rigid upward pointing Tiptoes (and later, the even better BDR cones) yielded very significant improvements in clarity, refinement, bass extension and subjective sense of speed. By comparison, the stock spring suspension always resulted in a more diffuse sound which was very midrange centric with curtailed bass extension and a somewhat bloated lower mid/ upper bass range. Most obvious was a band of unnatural brightness in the upper midrange that completely disappeared when the springs were removed. As noromance experienced at first with the Nobsound devices: “reduced bass and somewhat thinner sound”. The differences were not subtle and the springs were abandoned.
I bring all this up not to dispute any of the findings of improvement by those using these devices nor to make any general claims about the use of springs or not; quite the contrary. Mine was just one experience with a very different type of spring device. However, when I think of how many HW19’s are out there and how often it is recommended that the springs be removed, it seems to me that trying these devices in place of the stock springs is a no brainer given their cost. If memory serves, the dimensions of these things are just about perfect for this application. I will be ordering some for use under my electronics.
Thanks, noromance!
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@mitch2 Agreed. As the compression needs of the Nobs are too much for my phono preamps, I used leftover Nobs springs directly to good effect.
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Amplifiers, speakers, and subs are on springs here now for a nice sonic improvement. If you want an alternate to Nobsound, try simply purchasing loose springs. By purchasing a few extra, I was able to add springs in strategic locations when needed to adjust the overall support. For example, under each amp I have springs in the four corners plus one directly beneath the large transformer. I also found you can place thin heat shrink around the springs and overlap on top and bottom to avoid scratching floors and the bottoms of your equipment....this is similar to what is shown on the Townshend site for their pods. The supplier linked below is fast, relatively inexpensive, and has a nice search tool you can use to enter your spring parameters. https://www.centuryspring.com/catalog/compression-regular?page=search&cid=compression-regular |
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@mijostyn Thanks to @Indranilsen, I was looking at their Ref 1 as a possible skeletal plinth for a 401. Expensive experiment though.
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Soild-tech are one of the pioneers (1995), I don't believe they copied anyone. Years ago when we were searching for isolation devices for loudspeakers, Solid-tech of Sweden and Townshend of UK (1987) were the main two to be found on the internet.
Solid-tech doesn't appear to use similar technology or use of springs in the same manner Townshend does?
I see many knock-offs now coming from newcomers though.
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Indra, looking forward to your results.
I have tried the Nobsound under my ply 401 with the same immediately discernible results. It's as if I put on 3D glasses! |
@noromance- You would need 7 units to handle such a load which might not be practical besides it's my experience that optimal performance comes from using as less such units as possible. So less is better...
Nobsound springs are relatively stiffer and might work well for such heavier loads and as you pointed out they are working very well for you. You should be all set. Enjoy the music.
Thanks.
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@indranilsen The FOS heavy duty only support 3-6kg per foot. My turntable is at least 40kg. |
Moabs are on BDR Cones, on MDF Spring Thing. Springs are on BDR Round Things so they can slide over the carpet real nice. |
@millercarbon,
On your diy springy thingys are they positioned between the bottom of Moab's and the mdf plates?
You are not using the provided spikes into the mdf and the diy springy thingys on the bottom of the mdf plates?
Thanks |
Folks,
I have just ordered three Feet of silence from Solid-Tech for my turntable on their website. Solid tech has already shipped it from Sweden and I am expecting it to be in the US within a week. I will let you know its performance once I have it in my music room.
Thanks.
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Yes, it looks like the Sweden’s may be stealing from the British. |
@derekw_hawaii - has anyone done any testing with dual-pitch compression springs?
It's a discussion I've had with another user of spring isolation, and it's another way to deal with the issue with broader frequency isolation.
I have seen the SoildAirAudio and some of their products appear to be very similar to Solid-tech out of Sweden.
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@noromance
Thats what I was looking for thanks. |
@totem395
From Doug Audio. The maximum is around 45kg / 99lb. We recommend <35kg / 77lb.
You'll have to interpolate and test for 5 and your situation. |
SolidAirAudio: We have done more scientific tests, which show a slight load dependant resonance, but this is not very helpful as it will vary with units with different weights. It does explain why a second layer of feet works so well though, as with a different loading,
Anyone up to try a McDouble? 😆
Following your lead. |
Any speculation on max weight for the 4 feet
and accompanying 5 springs?
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3 spring units under the table on the slate feet. I need the height due to the extra large SPH bearing.
1 at the back - 40% in from right - with 7 springs.
2 at the front. Left with 6 springs. Right with 3 springs.
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Noromance.
How do you have the springs arranged under the plinth?
I know from picking up my 401 that the weight is also uneven in its distribution. |
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Another song. McShann playing Ellington’s Blue Feeling.
Trumpet in the room. Plucked bass and drumkit syncopation I’ve never heard before in such detail. Whole system seems free of sluggishness. A veil removed.
Aldous Harding - Party. Nothing wrong with bass here. Overhang gone. Clean.
Another revelation. The bass isn't pushed back. It IS back. The drumkit is at the back of the soundstage. It's never been so obvious before. |
Playing the wonderfully recorded 1980 Amtrak Blues - Alberta Hunter.
3D. Can't believe these original ESL57s can sound this astonishing. Previously recessed cymbal work is crystalline.
Jan Mc Shann - 1979 Big Apple Bash. Piano is eerie in its realism. Attack and rise time much improved.
I do think that bass lines are pushed back a little more than I'd like. I'll try increasing VTF from 1.65 to 1.8 and see if it brings it back up. |
Noromance 401 is pretty similar ( heavier as he has an aftermarket heavy platter @uberwaltz My PAC platter is only a few pounds over standard. The slate plinth however is very heavy with the weight distributed unevenly. |
I’ve been bringing this up for six months now.
It is true.... I order my springs after reading you 2 months ago.... Thanks.... |
I’ve been bringing this up for six months now. I have the springs from Amazon for about six months and they do a fine job On my Moab speakers.Another product I found which does an amazing job are these mag-lev feet that I have under my subs. I don’t have them underneath any components and I don’t have a turntable but they probably would do an excellent job there as well. Check these out! https://solidairaudio.com |
