Your pictures seem to be distorted and make the room look considerably narrower than in real life. assuming by the skinny chair. That said have you tried some bass traps to damp the bass in room?
Maybe it is worth looking at having a company who specializes in room acoustic look at the room and calculate the room nodes etc. and give you suggestions on room treatment. I know there is one company where I live that takes your measurements and calculates the room and where/what to use for treatment. They only charge $150 so reasonably cost effective, they also can supply the panels etc. Optionally put your room dimensions into one of the online calculators to get an idea.
My first thought is the Arials are going to be too much for the room but potentially with proper room treatment they could work. If not for small rooms, I've yet to find a speaker that can do as much as the AudioNote UK AN line like the AN-K or J for that small room. Very musical speakers, as the Arials are from memory, and decent bass for a stand mount. Note reason i recommend AudioNote speakers for small rooms is they are designed to be corner/wall loaded.
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Try playing with speaker placement first. I’d suggest pulling the speakers another foot into the room and more like 5.5’ - 6’ apart to give more breathing room from the walls and see if that mitigates the issues you’re hearing — my guess is that it will help and probably improve imaging/soundstage as well. I’d also try removing some of the absorptive panels as they may be absorbing the highs and making things sound muddier/congested. Hope this helps, and best of luck.
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@glennewdick Yes, no idea why the pics are distorted - I tried multiple times and sometimes one pic would be okay and the second distorted and sometimes both. In the end, I hoped it was an artifact of the posting editor and it would look normal when actually posted, but nope!
I did trying plugging the rear port with some rollers up socks and added one big acoustic panel seen in the front of the room to each back corner. I think blocking the port is definitely needed if I stick with the Aerials. I also purchased right sized 12” wide acoustic panels that would fit more properly in the rear corners - those will arrive today.
I’ve heard great things about Audio Note. Will see what shows up on the local used market.
@soix I will definitely try your suggestions, thank you. At what point is a listening setup near-field? I thought the ideal was close to an equilateral triangle. If I end up say 7ft from each speaker at the LP, I guess that’s still not near field.
@yogiboy I’ll keep an eye out. My 7B’s are over 20yrs old, so no idea if the sonic character of the newer Aerial models matches what I have now, but it’s a good thought to guide me.
Thanks for all the comments so far!
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Ideally, I’d go with smaller monitors and a separate sub to better be able to adjust bass levels in the small room. Applying DSp/room correction as needed should also be considered.
I use KEF ls50 meta + sub in similar tight quarters. THese are as good as it gets for the size and for modest cost. YOur amp should drive them fine. I use Roon DSp with these and others in other rooms, but I have found very little if any correction needed with the ls50 setup.
Listening nearfield is another option to consider when the room just cannot cut it for whatever reason.
DSP/room correction should work pretty well with the speakers you already have, though I think smaller speakers+ sub(s) are more ideally suited for the room due to increased flexibility adjusting the bass as needed.
Good luck!
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Definitely hard to get a sense of space when everything is squishy.
Perhaps try setting only the picture width when you upload it or just make it smaller. Has the look of software trying to cram the picture into the space.
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I will find a way to post unsquished pics.
The complications with a sub:
a) C35 preamp doesn’t have a sub out. So I’d need to find some sort of line level combine two channels into one device and let the sub high pass filter out what it doesn’t need
b) A sub in the rear of the room behind the listening chair is the most “ideal” place space-wise for a sub. In fact, I have a large SVS sub already there for Atmos duty. I could stack a new smaller sub for music on top, but hard to place it elsewhere unless front of room is possible, but front cabinets span entire front wall, so it would have to likely be front right side as there are no record racks there.
I could try and double duty the SVS for music, but it’s more of a HT sub than music sub
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Absolutely you'd love Fritz. Does free trials. Get something wiht a split paper woofer and ring radiator. DOn't know the model names.
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Yes they do. I'd try plugging the ports which would lessen the base boom while retaining some good, tight base and experiment toeing them in to your satisfaction. See if that works.
If not, then monitors may be all you need, like the Revival Audio Atalante 3, which I have, and love.
All the best,
Nonoise
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we have an incredible pair of compact loudspeakers for you
https://www.stereotimes.com/post/jern-14eh-loudspeaker-and-mj-acoustics-ref-i-mk4-subwoofer-by-greg-voth-2/
"The 14EH produces uncanny three-dimensional imaging that noticeably expands the soundstage. With a frequency range of 90-25,000 Hz, the JERN®14EH combined with a single subwoofer or dual subwoofers creates an unforgettable listening experience of great depth and detail."
the Jerns are a unique compact loudspeakers with one of the most inert cabinets on the planet: cast iron and graphite.
the cabinet houses either a Scanspeak or the rarer gold domed, hand made Hiquphon twweter: https://www.hiquphon.dk/pdf_files/OW3-prospect.pdf tweeter
the midrange Bass driver is a composite driver from Wavecor.
the crossover is a minimalist design: using Mundorf capacitors and high quality bespoke wiring and wool stuffing to complete the package the result is a totally resonance free, fast and articulate monitor, that completely disappears, and sounds like an electrostatic loudspeaker.
As the loudspeaker has limited bass we match them up with an Mj acoustics pro 80 subwoofer 1800 for a very room friendly full range sat/sub package, that can work in any small room in any location in that room.
Dave and Troy
audio intellect NJ
Jern and MJ Importers.
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Nice record collection, now if there is a way to store them in another room. in such a small room is eating up a lot of the air.
A REL acoustic subs are designed to be able to hook up to a system that doesn’t have a sub out on it.
I would also put some panels on the ceiling, just curious what are the round Grey disc?
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@erik_squires The Fritz Rev 7 SE has a split paper woofer and the ring radiator tweeter. I have a pair in a small space and they are so good.
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Interesting little room you have there. Maybe challenging but a fun project trying to optimize everything. As people have already said, you can keep tweaking speaker placement with your existing gear. But in the end probably would be best to go with a really nice set of mini monitors, then later add a sub if you want. That way you can fit the sub where it sounds best, and also independently adjust the volume so it doesn't overwhelm the room.
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@erik_squires Fritz definitely looks interesting. I like the idea of supporting an independent speaker maker who uses high quality components. Will keep a look out.
@nonoise I did try plugging the Aerial ports, as well as moving them further into the room, and it’s still too much. I think they’re just too much speaker for the small volume in the room here.
@gkelly I really can’t store the records elsewhere as my deal with my wife is if I got my own music room or “mini man-cave”, I’d store all my gear and media here in the room. So the only way they leave the room is if I downsize and get rid of them altogether. The round grey discs are in-ceiling/in-wall speakers for my Atmos setup. I really am trying to do a lot with the room, so there’s a 65” TV up front, but I painted the wall black to make it less obvious. For the Atmos speakers, they had to be in-wall/in-ceilling for space reasons, but it actually sounds pretty good for what it is. I don’t object to placing acoustic panels on the ceiling - it’s just harder to place them temporarily in spaces to hear the effect with gravity and all. And I’m constrained a bit by the 4 Atmos speakers in the ceiling.
@tubeguy80 Yes, it’s been a fun project. I’ve kind of given up on the Aerials as if moving them around, plugging the ports, and treating the corners isn’t enough, it’s probably just too big a speaker for the space.
I just put in the Monitor Audio Gold Reference 20’s and I’m able to get away with just the back corner treatments and haven’t had to plug the rear ports on them yet. They’re placed near the top of the speaker- 35” off the ground vs the much lower port on the Aerials (12” off the ground). Maybe this is providing some breathing room, plus it’s just a smaller speaker to begin with.
I think I’m going to play with placement of the Monitor Golds for now and once I optimize, see what I think I’m lacking sonically. In parallel, keep my eyes open for some opportunistic buying opportunities on standmount monitors, which size wise just seem to be intuitively a better fit for this smaller room.
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Check out PMC's. Small form factor and with their transmission line cabinets, you won't need a subwoofer. Also, 8 ohms and easy to drive.
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the forum page keeps the original height of the image and sets the width of the image to the column width/div width which is why it's distorted - ends up "tall" and narrow. You manually have to change the height...
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Call Fritz Heiler and discuss this with him. For ~$3,000 he can deliver a more than acceptable speaker to meet your needs. I spent the better part of 2 years searching for speakers and after talking with him then auditioning a set he recommended my search for a monitor with the bass presentation I was looking for my search was over.
Fritz Speakers Loudspeakers Sound System Speaker Designs
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@OP You need corner bass traps. The panels you have work in the midrange.
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My one bit of advice btw is treat the ceiling. A panel or two up there, white perhaps, will be amazing.
Use the AM Acoustics room mode simulator to see what problems you have, where they will be and what frequency. It may help with placement and bass trap decisions. Also bass traps can be put in behind your listening location equally well if you don't have the room up front.
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My room has very similar dimensions to yours. I use Fritz Carbon 7se MK2 speakers and love them. Regardless of the speaker used, like others have suggested I would remove some of the side wall panels, leaving a couple at reflection points, and use the panels you purchased in the front wall corners as bass traps for a start. Additional bass traps would likely help.
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Looks like a very nice room, if only it was a few feet wider. You might have too much speaker for your space.
Think high quality bookshelf speakers with a sub would fit the room perfectly. Maybe a mellow speaker with lower efficiency? There are several subs that do speaker level inputs, or have RCA in/out to use in a tape loop, or in between preamp and amp.
Kind of sucks you have such nice equipment. Powered speakers would be nice, like the KEF's.
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@yoyoyaya What do you recommend for bass traps? Is it the shape or material (or both) that differentiate a higher frequency panel from a bass trap? I suppose not surprisingly, vendors advertise flat panels like the ones I have as bass traps, so would be good for me to be educated on this
@erik_squires Am I treating for general reflections or bass in particular when doing ceilings?
@re-lar-kvothe @mesch @scotandholly Yes, more recommendations for Fritz! I should really check him out. I did go to the site, but all the models (current and legacy) are kind of overwhelming. I’m sure he can clear things up in a conversation. I grew up in SoCal and visit there 3-4 times a year. Where in SoCal is he, and does he have a sound room where he can demo different models? Seems ideal to be able to hear different models in the same environment and then go home with the one that I think fits best and demo them at home for awhile.
@mswale Yes, plenty of gear. Some low powered tube gear as well. Eico HF-85 preamp, Dynaco ST-35 and ST-70 amps, 2 x Eico HF-12 mono integrateds. So lower powered gear. I think I could be happy enough with something that went down to the high 30’s/low 40’s, which the Fritz models seem to. And their series crossover is supposed to make the speakers easier to drive, so those may be able to bring my tube gear into rotation too. The Aerials were too power hungry for them.
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@captouch I use my Frirz speakers with a PP EL34 tube amp in triode mode (<20wpc) with no problem. I have also used 2x4' wall mounted acoustic absorption panels set diagonally across corners of the front wall. The space behind the panels served as bass trapping. Now with a change to stand mount speakers not going much below 40hz) (which I was using) I am not sure how much bass trapping you will need. I do believe you may have too much reduction of upper bass and midrange absorption on your side walls, skewing frequency response increasing the impression of lower bass. Keep in mind that if you change speakers your room treatment needs will likely change. Particularly regarding bass response.
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If the speaker is too big for your room, overloading your room, etc, it means any car stereo you ever heard in life in that tiny space called a car cabin should have had overwhelming bass, chestiness, congestion, etc. But, that was not the case in the tiny space called the car, right?
Get a umik, rew software and measure what's happening at your listening location. You are most probably sitting on top of some modal peaks. After that you can start moving yourself and your speakers around a bit (referred to as positional EQ). Aid it with some Schiit Loki analog eq as well and adjust to taste/make do.
Since you seem to be a analog only guy, digital dsp fixes went out the window. Your room is a bit small for treatments that actually work, etc....
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@mesch Yes, I removed 3 of those large acoustic panels from the side walls already. Just left two closest to the front of the room. Can remove those if needed.
I also have acoustic foam inside all the canvas pictures on the walls. Since that rug is very thin and floors are wood, along with the IKEA CD cabinets on the walls with glass doors, I thought I could benefit from some reflection taming. But all that foam can be easily removed as well - nothing as far as “room treatments”’ is hard to remove.
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@OP - a lot of what advertised as bass traps are broadband absorbers that have some attenuation at lower frequencies but aren't optimised for that freqency range. If you look at Vicoustic or Gik's websites, you'll see cylindrical and triangular corner traps that are specifically tuned to bass frequencies.
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Am I treating for general reflections or bass in particular when doing ceilings?
@captouch - Depends on your needs. At least for general reflections but if you find yourself lacking space to put bass traps then using that space to do both is a good idea. The Am Acoustics room mode simulator can really help determine if that would help.
Depending on where and what frequency another related option is the GIK Acoustics Soffit Traps which can run wherever 2 surfaces meet. You could (not saying SHOULD) run soffit traps all along the edge of the ceiling, which would be extremely good bass traps.
An intermediate approach is a mondo trap which is a panel, with space from the ceiling to the trap which can do both reflections and mid bass.
The ceiling area in general can be used when the overall room remains too reflective but we are out of places to put absorbers. I have also found that unless you have very high ceilings treating the area between speaker and listener can really enhance imaging and spaciousness.
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@captouch
No one here ever talks about consulting an acoustician. Must be egos thinking they can get a tough space right. I recommend contacting Jeff at hdacoustics and tell him what you are looking for sound wise. You can probably put bigger speakers in there than you think. He is very good with smaller rooms and his designs are reasonably priced. Good luck !
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I once read it’s really hard to over dampen in a small room. For me I used a case of 12 703 Owens Corning rigid fiberglass panels. Covered in JoAnn fabrics colored burlap with fir strips for framing. Strategically placing them along the walls and ceiling, it was by far one of the most transformative tweaks. Seriously, start here and if you feel you need to further educate yourself about acoustics at least you’ll have a good head start .
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If the speaker is too big for your room, overloading your room, etc, it means any car stereo you ever heard in life in that tiny space called a car cabin should have had overwhelming bass, chestiness, congestion, etc. But, that was not the case in the tiny space called the car, right?
I bet you must have some great car audio going on with the Von Sweikerts in your Porsche.
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@ronboco My thought is that my room isn't ideal to start with, because it's smaller than the minimum volume I've read is required for a dedicated audio room. Some people's stance is "if you can't meet that minimum volume, don't bother, it's never going to sound great". But it's all I have, so I'm trying to make the best out of it, knowing I'm dual purposing the room (TV/Atmos and audio), loading all my media and spare gear in it, etc, so I'm consuming more room volume by having everything in there. So it aggravates an already problematic starting point.
If I had a large enough room with the potential to be made great, I could see myself investing $ into some professional acoustic consulting. But as it stands, I'm not sure what would likely be high hundreds to low thousands in investment with a professional acoustics company (consulting time, purchasing their custom solutions, etc) is really the right thing for a space that isn't ideal to begin with.
It's possible that a professional company could do significant things to make my current speakers sound great, but if I invest big $ into analysis and custom treatments and it sounds better (but still not great) and it still drives me towards smaller speakers, then I'll honestly feel like I wasted my money. Because as others have said, the optimal room treatments may be affected by characteristics of the speakers that you're optimizing for. So I might need to do the analysis again with the new speakers. I may be wrong, but that's my line of thought.
@gkelly How big are your panels? Just curious.
My current feeling is that I should do some basic room treatment (corners, first reflection points if needed, etc) and then try to find speakers that work well in the small space to minimize the remaining issues that need to be addressed and optimized for.
Then the remaining acoustic treatments can be fine tuning to optimize already good sound vs stamping out major issues.
While I suppose it's true that some combination of room optimization via treatments, EQ, etc, can make any given speaker sound pretty good in the room, if the starting point is a speaker that presents fewer fundamental challenges for the space in the first place, the sledding won't be as tough to improve things from there.
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@captouch
I understand your thinking but if you tell Jeff what type of sound you are looking for and send him some pics of the room he will let you know if it possible without charging you anything.I believe this is how he does it. You can ask. So you are out nothing. If you go with him then you will pay for the design. I don’t know how tall your ceiling is but if it’s 9-10 ft it is about the same volume as my room. I am extremely happy with the sound of my system. Jeff is a no pressure person and I thoroughly enjoyed working with him.
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@ronboco Thanks for the further info, I appreciate it. It’s a 8’ ceiling unfortunately. But I’ll keep an open mind on this and won’t eliminate any options without at least weighing against other options.
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@captouch
Your welcome. Your room can definitely sound awesome !
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@captouch Not sure what your budget might be for smaller monitors, but there are many good options to choose from. If I were you I might try for a local hifi shop (if one exists nearby) that would allow an in home trial. That will probably be very illuminating, and the easy returns very worthwhile.
The next best thing after that would be some of the big online sellers that offer easy returns. Even somewhat mainstream places like Crutchfield now have lots of quality speakers. You probably have to cover the cost of return shipping if they don't work out, but that shouldn't be too terrible on a pair of smallish monitors.
If you like the Monitor Audio sound, I hear good things about the newest Gold 50 6G which are quite small. Or, maybe a front ported design would be advantageous in your space? I recently heard the Triangle Theta Signature and was very impressed.
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@tubeguy80 I'd like to stay at $3K or below, which I think gives me plenty of options. All things being equal, I generally like to buy gently used as there's some good value to be had in gear that's not brand new, but that's not a necessity as whatever I get next I hope will be a long term speaker. I used my Aerials in the previous larger space for 7+ years, so I'm not a constant rotator of gear once I find something I really like.
I agree that demoing in my home/room with my gear is the best option. Unless I'm demoing a couple of pairs at once, I think my reference point (what has to be bettered) will be the Monitor Audios I currently have, because at least they sound better than the Aerials with this room size.
Based on multiple recommendations above, I did send an email to Fritz Speakers with my situation and plan to speak to him on the phone about his product line.
I will say the hardest thing for me at this point is the temptation to buy something used that originally sold in the $3K range now selling for $1.2-1.4K vs buying something new for close to that $3K budget. But buying used means you pay your $ and take your chances, vs finding a shop or company that allows demos like you suggested.
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measure the room, act on data… respectable tools are inexpensive now….
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@OP - the volume of your room does not indicate whether it will or will not benefit from acoustic treatment. Your room is bigger than a lot of the control rooms in small studios, which, if they are commercial, will be treated. Sound on Sound magazine used to run a feature where they helped out readers with project studios and the first thing Paul White always did was address the acoustics of the space.
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Hey @captouch , I posted a couple of months ago seeking speaker recs for my 10x12’ spare bedroom. I got a lot of great responses including the Fritzes. I had a nice talk with him and found out he was located in Norcal. I’m inSocal so unfortunately I couldn’t demo them in person. He has a trial policy where you can ship them back (at your expense) if you’re not satisfied.
I was planning to go that route until I found some Quad floorstanders on clearance at my local salon and decided to get them instead.
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703 Owens Corning rigid fiberglass panels come in 2’ x 4’ x 2” thick panels.
using the supplies I mentioned before, Including mounting hardware was less than $500 Plus my time and labor.
The only Thing I would’ve done different is I would’ve gotten two cases of Owens Corning fiberglass panels and made some of the panel panels 4 inches thick for better base absorption. Alas, that is another project for me in the future.
Even if you were to consult a professional, he’s gonna have you start with some form of this set up. I looked up GIK acoustic panels and they start out at $120 each for a 2 x 4 x 2“ panel. Sure the first one you make isn’t gonna be as nice as theirs, but the learning curve is really low and by your third one you ain’t gonna be able to tell the difference between who made it. Just put your first couple ones kinda out of sight. The rest will impress your friends, people Have often commented to me how nice they look.👀
if you’re lacking in the DIY gene, I would still use a local upholster and or cabinet maker would probably still come under GIK asking price, a lot of their cost comes in shipping. I could be wrong on this, but then I’m one of those let’s support the local economy.
Good luck in your journey, but I can’t stress enough doing this simple step Is the path you need to follow!!
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Just another quick thought ever go into a guitar center and see one of their recording rooms? Notice how it’s floor ceiling in absorption. That’s that small room factor coming into play
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