just venting....why do so many discussion posts need to turn contenious and nasty? do you guys find that constructive and/or enjoyable? I have no clue who or how this forum is moderated, but I sure would love to see a stop to that...it makes me feel like this hobby is dominated by total jerks.
Can't we play nice, share OPINIONS and OBSERVATIONS, realizing that they often are subjective and biased. "if you dont have anything nice to say, say nothing"? If you wish to disagree, do it in a constructive and mature fashion, no need for "argument ad hominem"...
with all the chaff, one must waste so much time finding the wheat, figuratively speaking.
I doubt my writing this will change anything, but, like most social media, people writing to others without facing them does not bring out the best, sadly......
I wholeheartedly agree that the problems that manifest here are a mirror/microcosm (well, maybe not so micro for those owning refrigerator-sized speakers) of the ones in the world in general. Human nature extends to most of us humans, doesn't it?
yes, it does get posted here periodically: I’ve posted it at least a few times myself, and in spite of the reminders the Triangle doesn’t seem to get heeded.
Follow these simple guidelines, not much can go wrong.
thanks for this
graham’s framework gets posted here periodically and it is a terrific reminder for all of us
folks who actively participate here (and feel the need to disagree alot) would hopefully take the time to read (or re-read) the important distinctions he makes in the nature of 'how to disagree'
the fundamental framework is of course most helpful in other walks of life as well, much more important than a discussion board on hi-fi
I have learned a lot from this site in the past few years, much of which has enabled me to improve the sound of my system for far less $$ than swapping out boxes, which may or may not improve my sound. In decades of stereo enjoyment these improvements were never suggested by stereo retailers who view the improvements as too small or not worth their time, so I was never even aware they should be considered. I take advantage of some of them after some logical thinking and pass on others. If some people say they hear a tremendous improvement, who am I to say it doesn't exist? I don't know their environment, music tastes, etc., and mainly their hearing capacity and sensitivity.
There is lots of humor, some good videos posted, and some thinly (or not at all-only sold direct) distributed brands worth considering discussed that do not advertise.
I ignore the political nonsense showing the poster's tribalism - anyone who does not think for themselves on any particular issue to me is insecure in their intelligence. As Woody Allen said, I would never join a club that would have me as a member (or something like that). Personal attacks show the same insecurity so I ignore them, and topics where I have no interest. Mostly, I don't take it as life or death, just a passionate hobby that provides thousands of hours of enjoyment. Better SQ makes those hours more enjoyable.
Read and reread many of the responses and it's easy to agree with many who offer objective, rational insights into the swampy fringe areas. The fringe area as named has persisted since the invention of printing press. However, now with the availability and freedom of the Net, those compelled to wrap themselves in self-righteous garb and spread the plague of misinformation find support with little effort.
Philip Agre, a computer scientist turned
humanities professor, was prescient about many of the ways technology would
impact the world
By Reed Albertotti
August 12, 2021 at
1:30 p.m. EDT
In 1994 — before most Americans had an email address or Internet
access or even a personal computer — Philip Agre foresaw that computers would
one day facilitate the mass collection of data on everything in society.
That process would change and simplify human behavior, wrote the
then-UCLA humanities professor. And because that data would be collected not by
a single, powerful “big brother” government but by lots of entities for lots of
different purposes, he predicted that people would willingly part with massive
amounts of information about their most personal fears and desires.
“Genuinely worrisome developments can seem ‘not so bad’ simply
for lacking the overt horrors of Orwell’s dystopia,” wrote Agre, who has a
doctorate in computer science from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology,
in an academic paper.
Nearly 30 years later, Agre’s paper seems eerily prescient, a
startling vision of a future that has come to pass in the form of a data
industrial complex that knows no borders and few laws.
You might find Paul Graham’s Hierarchy of Disagreement to be of use. Paul is a tech nerd with a number of valuable patents to his name. He noticed that social media by its very nature tends towards conflict because it generates more traffic.
Audiogon is hurting their brand. Either the ought to moderate the discussions, remove them entirely or set it up so if a member asks a question all responses go directly to that member. No more public discussion. The anonymity afforded by these internet discussions has become an outlet for sick people. Fortunately for me the questions I have posted did receive some thoughtful and helpful responses; it is not all bad
Much of this discourse thrives on the passive aggressive nature as well as anonymity. Social Media........Post things you would never say face to face.
Why do so many discussions turn out so contentious? For the same reason worthless sounding equipment get good reviews in magazines. Everyone wants their beliefs affirmed. IME there are several groups of listeners. The 2 primary groups are those looking for accuracy and those who want music to sound good. I'm an accuracy guy, I want to I hear the good the bad, and the ugly. Then there's what I call the Vandersteen listeners. To my ears Vandersteens dumb down the sound so that nothing really is annoying. So if you want to enjoy the music without detail, Vandersteens get you there. Then there are folks who are hearing impaired. I know a guy with a serious high frequency impairment. He listens to an Asian girl band which makes most people's ears bleed. IMO, that's it, the if it's there I want to hear it, and if it sucks it sucks, then the my hearing is bad, but I want compensation types. The fact is that if you X, you like X, don't worry about other people!
Pervasive anxiety, insecurity, feelings of dread, helplessness, anger, frustration--any of these conditions that a person is feeling routinely arouses impulsive, at times, self-destructive defenses. Many feeling hopeless withdraw from social interactions and self-medicate. Yet some can vent frustration, giving aggressive rise of intolerance and even devaluation of others. A safe place to do such is online.
Most contentious posts involve people with no knowledge or experience posting what they think they know. Best joke these days is who thought access to all the world’s knowledge on the internet would make people stupider. Legit posters here own high end audio equipment and invest time in listening. Then we have the stupid who have never heard high end audio, can’t bother too, and want to tell us what they think they know.
@dabel, we could start by looking how other (audio) forums handle it. Most of which have a stronger and more supportive communities. I’m not saying they’re perfect, but are generally a far cry from the old men yelling at rap music, or digital, or budget cables here.
And, an actual ignore button would be a nice functionality upgrade. However, the contentious discussions here actually benefit Audiogon which is first and foremost a sales point intermediary. The owners don’t need members to get along, they just need them to keep posting to generate site usage data.
People don't like their belief systems challenged. It's the same reason many wars are started over religion or ideology. And due to cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias, it will not stop until/unless humans evolve. You could censor it, but the censorship would also be subject to the censor's cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.
If it bothers you why don't you just ignore those posts.
Exactly @frogman. There's been a number of posts in this thread alone thrown in that are clearly bait to get confrontational. I refuse to take the bait. I won't provide the fuel.
I think the circumstance is endemic to people, as opposed to posters within this forum. Perhaps people interested in audio serves as a filter that attracts a certain level of personal evolution and is therefore skewed more toward the negative then another context, but I doubt it.People who are reactive, emotionally immature, spiteful, petty, and all sorts of others values and behaviors that we certainly don’t treasure manifest this level of development in their posts.Since I think that these are the root of what I consider to be misbehavior here, I don’t think they will change simply by giving feedback or pointing things like this out to the problem people. The stuff is rooted in personality and any sort of learning curve or lack of it as folks go through their lives. Therefore, I believe that strong moderating and editing is the only solution, but of course, like all of you, I have no control over that, and I’m subject to however the people that run this want to do things.All In all, I think it’s important to starve attention from attention seekers and not engage with those who want to create toxic engagement. So what I do is just read the beginning of a post and if it’s a rant or something rude, I stop reading. Responding to these folks just feeds them, in my opinion.
Even in a post that everyone should agree that "
If you wish to disagree, do it in a constructive and mature fashion, no need for "argument ad hominem" we get name calling and bias.
I tried to start a post here that was just vile venting without names so you we would have a place to send people who were just unable to control themselves. Moderators deleted before the first post.
Picture the Indian Chief with a tear rolling down his cheek looking at all the trash
And quite noticeable that things have cooled off around here of late since one particular individual with the very personality traits you mention seems to have gone back under its bridge for a while...curious dat !
Ignoring trolls is good advice but that
alone doesn’t solve the problem of losing new/prospective members who are
turned off by the prevalent bickering and posturing.
Disagreements and opposing opinions can be important catalysts
to introducing new ideas and learning new stuff. If only folks could state their opinions and
then get out of the way and let others do the same, without trying to prove they
are smarter, more experienced, or have a monopoly on the one true path. The train is off the rails when those with opposing
opinions are accused of having poor hearing, inferior systems, poor critical
listening skills, an inability to understand science, or any of the other worn
out ad hominem arguments we see here too often.
More active moderation might help, or possibly moving contentious threads to a
separate forum where more aggressive debates are tolerated. Ideally, those who want to aggressively argue
their points would start their own threads specifically intended for those who
want to debate a certain issue. OTOH, if
somebody starts a thread with the words “snake oil” in the topic, nobody should be surprised if the arguments turn
contentious.
I'll apologize and beg pardons from the 'collective' for being more than a tad wry in my obscure fashion, but some threads.... ...just nearly beg for the 'cooler of Gatorade' Rx... ...but it dries 'sticky' (I personally don't like any Gatorade a'tall) so just a jive jibe might bring relief....*shrug*
Jury's still out, imho....
3EZpymts has it down; "One Company To Bind Them" would be the answer for some, but would make the whole of AG superfluous....with the exception of ones' personal listening environment....and make for a socialist hell of an audio nature.
I'd rather read us arguing, frankly. It keeps 'it' lively, one learns who leans towards what, or opting for diplomacy, keyboard kombat, or just just watching the fur fly.
But, I'm just weird that way, and c'est la vie....
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