@dayglow wrote:
Thx for the reply. Synergy has always been the key with building a fine sounding HEA system. The focus should be on synergistic systems at all performance levels not just mocking expensive components that are mismatched.
True, but I sought to address that newer and expensive components within the more "accepted" hifi-segments and dogmas here are more readily given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to assumed performance envelope and overall popularity. I merely pointed out that such gear can also sound bland/off, and that integration and implementation - even within this realm of equipment and price range - can't be taken for granted.
I assume you understand all components have a performance ceiling, even with everything fined tuned...room acoustics/power conditioning/vibration control and proper set up.
Yes, but it's not necessarily tied to price, segment or age.
Newer modern equipment will almost always outperform even refurbished highly regarded vintage or pro/studio gear.
I disagree, with a few a provisos; when it comes to digital source equipment, new technology can be a significant contributor and in some iterations will see a performance gain that leaves older DAC's wanting in resolution and transparency. With amps however I find they can be up to ~30 years (or even more) and still sound great compared to new dittos. Speakers - that is, drivers and their design as well as age - can be older still and sound fantastic. A great design and implementation is great no matter how old (whereas wear can be a factor), and older horn designs here tend to be more readily based on physics (i.e.: without the same degree of size restrictions as contemporary designs). Old, passive crossover parts usually need replacement, but run actively the drivers can be brought to life in ways passive can't equal. Pro/studio gear can sound fantastic and leave nothing to be desired vs. "hifi" ditto (not to mention that it's liberating seeing this segment of gear being void of trends and fashion) - sometimes even to the contrary.
Nostalgia and cost might be the only reason to take this path not that most think were above this gear it just does not garner any performance advantage.
Again, that's the easy, convenient stance; why bother buying used and older gear when you can afford buying new and expensive? That's pretty much it and not much else from this kind of thinking, but in reality though it leaves out a heck of a lot to be explored if the rationale if actually based in sound.
Lastly validation from other Audiophiles should not be a concern/need within this hobby we all have different standards.
We do, but it's not really about validation, is it? It's about challenging ways of thinking that, from what I can assess, is not without its share of dogma and conjecture, not to mention a lack of an open-minded approach.
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@dayglow we research the hell out of things before we buy them. My system came about because I got a home demo where it blew my other amp out the water. Started with that and kept building.
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@calvinj Great thread! My final statement is the more time/effort/knowledge and money put towards this hobby the better the results. It's that simple!
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@dayglow that’s one of the advantages I have. Synergy. Infigo dac streamer cabling.
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@phusis Thx for the reply. Synergy has always been the key with building a fine sounding HEA system. The focus should be on synergistic systems at all performance levels not just mocking expensive components that are mismatched. I assume you understand all components have a performance ceiling, even with everything fined tuned...room acoustics/power conditioning/vibration control and proper set up. Newer modern equipment will almost always outperform even refurbished highly regarded vintage or pro/studio gear. Nostalgia and cost might be the only reason to take this path not that most think were above this gear it just does not garner any performance advantage. Lastly validation from other Audiophiles should not be a concern/need within this hobby we all have different standards.
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If it makes a difference to your ear you are the judge. I just sent some infigo cables to a customer and he is extremely happy. That’s what matters your ear no one else’s ear.
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It's harder to get the image and tonality of a singer correct to the ear than make a lasagna taste decent.
Who's ear....?
Thus my earlier point.
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@dayglow wrote:
... If an Adcom amp with JBL’s propped up on milk crates playing poorly recorded Sabbath can shake the walls is the "Holy Grail" run with it. Thankfully some of us want to hear(experience) the subtle macro/micro nuances of well recorded Beethoven/Coltrane/Pavarotti and Pink Floyd that only a certain level of audio components can achieve.
Dichotomies like these are easy, convenient and potentially quite misleading even. I've heard my share of moderately to crazy expensive setups with über high-end brands, all the accessory trimmings + room treatment sounding utterly bland, incoherent and downright boring. Goes without saying, perhaps, because why wouldn't it - gear is only so much in itself, and implementation and integration is essential, right?
And yet implementation and integration is the one factor we don't "see" (unless we hear it in the flesh) and that we also can't take for granted in any setup context. The individual with the cheaper setup comprised of mostly 2nd hand and more or less vintage equipment likely won't get a lot of traction among audiophiles by the mere looks of it, whereas the ones with new and expensive stuff and cool/aesthetically pleasing listening rooms are automatically swooned over - with all that implies and the associative mechanism that follows.
For all we should know however the former can sound much better depending on how it's been dialed in and (also importantly) adheres to physics - despite being both older and much cheaper; that's the power of proper implementation and integration, not to mention the relative insignificance of price, looks, age or other. Indeed, in the right hands and configuration those (older) Adcom amps and JBL speakers can very good indeed, and they mayn't reflect a young bloke whose only incentive it is to blast away at room shaking SPL's or who doesn't know about setting up his gear properly (or who can't listen to classical/jazz/sophisticated rock music).
It's often leveled at those who sneer at expensive equipment that they're just jealous (and effectively perhaps some poor, uneducated saps), but conversely those who pride themselves of owning expensive "high-end" stuff (and can't help but let others know about it) won't even consider cheaper, let alone used and older gear, or when it's from another (pro) audio segment. One can only assume it's beneath them or that it doesn't trigger the right association/expectation, and while they may not openly admit it or share this view, their silence can also tell you a lot.
I'm sure many don't have the experience of listening to well implemented and expensive, new high-end audio gear that they're nonetheless addressing negatively, but I'm just as sure many of those from the other "camp" haven't given a much cheaper, well implemented and differently configured setup of older, used gear from a likely pro-ish sector a proper, unbiased chance either. With a great source and solid amplification (made much more solid and efficiently harnessed when coupled actively), audiophiles would be baffled by the sheer potential of such a system as well.
To my mind it's a very different discussion than what has a price bearing as a predominant marker. To a degree price may not irrelevant, until it is, and then it's really about what's advocated above. And, coming down to it it's only what can discerned in front of the setup itself.
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@ps ...a 1 mil yrs. from now?
All bets off....IF humans survive our current idiocy we won't be what we are now except in some bipedal format....maybe...🤷♂️ 200 X current history is a time span we've zero clue about or experienced as a species.
As was noted by D. Adams, "For those of you on the galactic periphery, keep banging those rocks together..."
Let's see...imho....of course.... ;)
Elon wants to go to Mars. Fine, let him pack for the picnic and go.
Not on my or your dime, no.
Go to the moon 1st and figure out how to do that in the neighborhood.
Learn how to get anywhere faster than we can now.
Establish 'bus service' to the moon, then Mars.
Re other life 'out there'....Galactic Lotto Tix, as outrageous as ours, have wins.
Try to be friendly, but 'they' might treat us like the neighbor with the junk in the yard and the car on cinder blocks.
An open hand may still be considered a clenched fist.
We're clueless. read all the memos.
Don't get cocky:
"We've got nukes!"
We can fry your entire atmosphere in seconds.
Game over, no reboot.
Lucky if there's a pause....
Yours, J
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@rodman99999
’ "Feynman was and will remain, my favorite lecturer.... He mentioned often (and: I took to heart) his favorite Rule of Life: "Never stop learning!" ’
For me, one of the greatest joys of living longer is having the opportunity, to whatever degree, and depending on my ability, to keep learning.
One thing I have learned is than any faith-based certainty can be, and often is, toxic in one way or another. And all are primitive. Recorded history dates back a mere 5000 years or. Who knows how many more years humans will continue to inhabit this planet? What might be considered "primitive" to another form of sentient life in say, a million years from now?
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Just relax and listen to the music.
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OP asks what is perhaps the most profound question ever asked here. It is one which touches upon age-old human behavior far beyond the narrow confines of high-end audio.
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There is nothing like a guy who has never even listened to smthg tell me what I’m not hearing because I can not trust my brain not to lie to me. GTFOH!
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+1 @cleeds
Unfortunately turning on most media outlets now produces a large of “experts” all interested in telling you what you should believe and how you should behave.
Or get “our app” and we will tell what you should buy for the rest of the life of your phone!
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Perspective is everything.
To some (maybe most?) here my vintage audio system would probably be considered "mediocre" at best; especially to those who wouldn't think twice about purchasing $5K cables, $10K speakers, etc. I'm sure if I offered it up for discussion and asked for critique I would receive plenty.
Yet, to the average "layperson" who maybe recalls memories of a Dad or uncle who had a higher end system back in the 1960s / 1970s... my system might be looked at as phenomenally good.
Very different perspectives regarding the exact same pieces of equipment and setup.
I will say that I have found satisfaction with where I am now - and I think that is an undervalued position to be in. I do, however, totally understand that for some in this hobby, it's the excitement of the chase, so to speak; the endless quest for improvement - whether through actual scientifically measurable progress or just in the "this sounds better to me"... I don't feel the need to debate either methodology. If that's what floats your boat, it's all good.
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@hilde45 ,
Excellent.
The more I know, the more I know I don't know.
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Yesterday, I learned something new: A colleague suggested that we adopt "un-offendability" as a superpower -- the ability to "hear" things we don't agree with, while maintaining civility.
The true spirit of science -- a hypothetical attitude. For those interested, Stuart Firestein (Columbia biologist and neuroscientist who studies olfactory systems in animals) is great on this.
https://www.ted.com/talks/stuart_firestein_the_pursuit_of_ignorance
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There are those whose entire universe is formulated around predetermined outcomes. "I feel this way, and here are the 'facts' that make it so." This leads to subjective truths: which (sometimes forcefully) inflicted on others, can't be challenged (according to them).
Yesterday, I learned something new: A colleague suggested that we adopt "un-offendability" as a superpower -- the ability to "hear" things we don't agree with, while maintaining civility.
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@dayglow ive tried a lot of stuff. I been blessed to own and trade up over the years. I’m happy as ever now with my Infigo gear. It was quite the journey getting here. I’ve enjoyed it along the way. I do it for the music. Not to brag. If it don’t sound good it don’t matter.
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@calvinj Always appreciate when one takes time to reply! It needs to be repeated most of us with true HEA systems have no interest in bragging rights or criticizing others. The negative/cynical fodder usually emanates from budget/vintage or the DIY segment.
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@uncleang thats part of it too. We all like different things. Be happy with your preferences. Don’t push your measurements on me. lol.
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@dayglow i understand exactly. I’ve had people attack me like I bombed pearl harbor over my opinion. Look I love refinement, musicality, space between the notes, air and black backgrounds. My system does that in spades. Yes it cost me the price of a car but it brings me joy. That’s all that matters.
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@calvinj IMO the issue with Audiophiles is some take a cynical view of this hobby/lifestyle. Others see the possibilities of conveying music for an intimate experience despite the roadblocks and misinformation out there. The naysayers rebuttal always leads to the same tired and irrational cliches...law of diminishing returns, snake oil, audio jewelry, bragging rights, cost validation and the current cliche the over importance of measurements. Audiophiles all have different levels of acceptable refinement not just with gear but also music. If an Adcom amp with JBL’s propped up on milk crates playing poorly recorded Sabbath can shake the walls is the "Holy Grail" run with it. Thankfully some of us want to hear(experience) the subtle macro/micro nuances of well recorded Beethoven/Coltrane/Pavarotti and Pink Floyd that only a certain level of audio components can achieve.
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Because of the over-opinionated, slobbery-snobbery out there!
Nothing more, and nothing less…..
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We all adjust our TV's to our liking and we accept that our neighbor with the exact same TV may have different preferences in his settings.
No problem, that's what he likes.
Why the hell can't we do that with audio.
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AUDIOPHILE…..Supposition :-
If you imagine that you are a good car driver, does it make (in your mind) your car more special too?
If you have a superior hi-fi system, does it make you (in your mind) any more harmonised with music?
Bad drivers who love their cars, keep them well maintained and shiny will still be bad drivers…..
Some ‘audiophiles’ love their system more than anything else, just have to boast about their (imaginary) friend.
The question is……why do some people want to be labeled audiophiles and blast it out like a big multi-note car horn?
l have a high-end system!
Being an audiophile……..
And all that!
Yawn!
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@hilde45 how do you explain the grandmother that doesn't necessarily use science, only experience and intuition to cook a glorious tasting meal.
A recipe is a scientific thing and so is apprenticeship (in person with another person); so is daily trial and error. None of it is guesswork, which seems to be what you're suggesting the grandmother does. Just because there aren't formal measurements or numbers doesn't mean there isn't systematic attention paid to quantities, ratios, timing, and technique. A lot of the audio suggestions flying around lack any of those things with any systematicity.
And finally, acoustics and hearing are fairly precise things. It's harder to get the image and tonality of a singer correct to the ear than make a lasagna taste decent.
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Of course I can hear a gnat fart....more importantly, the dog or the cats...
Spouse can. too. 👍❤
Gives us someone else to blame it on..... 😏
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there seems to be this odd assumption among some that someone who values measurements somehow can’t appreciate music as well as a measurement skeptic. but of course, that’s an obvious logical fallacy.that actually demonstrates its own form of demagogy, or discriminatory behavior.
By way of example, though he didn’t have formal training in math, Bach’s music is widely appreciated to reflect sophisticated mathematical concepts. Mozart made notes containing mathematical equations in the margins of his compositions.
and, in another art form, let’s not forget that da vinci incorporated mathematical principles into his artistic creations; on the side, he proved the Pythagorean Theorem!
For each of these great artists, i think it’s hard to make a case that their appreciation of measurements diminished in any way the emotional depth of their artistic creations. Rather, i think it would be easier to say that their appreciation for measurements contributed to that depth.
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How do you know what you know? How do you know what you don't know? Am I always right? Now if I project the answers to these questions onto other people, then I can only conclude that they may or may not know what they are talking about. It's not unreasonable to be skeptical about what some audiophiles claim. We should be respectful, but that doesn't mean I think you're credible.
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@mrkrichman
No two people see Color the same
Actually lots of people see color the same. 8% of males have a congenital color vision deficiency, but only 0.5% of females. Roughly 15% of the general population, regardless of gender have an acquired color vision deficiency, a cataract being one of those potential causes. So most of us actually see color pretty much the same.
What colors we like, or not, is a completely different thing.
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@hilde45 how do you explain the grandmother that doesn't necessarily use science, only experience and intuition to cook a glorious tasting meal.
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My best advice. Trust your on ear and ability to hear and identify what you like or don’t like. It’s you that’s listening. It’s not a science project. It’s music.
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Some people not only think they know better but hear better...yeah ok.
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Thecarpathian
‘Are you related to Paul Harvey?’
Wish l was! I wonder what he did with the 10 year $100 million contract he signed?
I did get quite near to a famous ‘Harvey’ in the 70s. I was lucky to see James Stewart in London acting in his stage play, Harvey. Those who know of his original film of the same name will also be aware of his imaginary friend.
I hope some out there ‘get’ the simile l have drawn here…..Like ‘audiophile’ and the imaginary ‘rabbit’…..neither things are real in the end….or are they?
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I agree w/ those who recognize many audiophiles are siloed, post to seek reassurance, or affirmation,(usually because we get none of that at home) and come to these forums to seek empathy for our unlovable obsession, ("You spent how much for that needle?"), and may risk a terminating bite by daring to nudge ourselves into the lion's pack, only to be sniffed out as lambs. I paint this woeful scene because...
1. nothing is more painful than rejection by your "betters", those you look up to, want to join with.
2. This hobby rarely is affirmative beyond our own ears. Most everyone I know thinks I'm crazy, building something so "expensive" when I "..can get sound just as good with a bluetooth receiver and iphone".
And 3. The music of today mostly sucks,( sorry, it does), so when I'm caught listening to decades-old music beyond 65db I'm often asked to "turn it down." I'm just this geezer "living in the past", with "all that black junk, all the wires", and "all those old albums and CDs; can't you move that stuff into the garage?".
Not only advice, and suggestions, I come here for solace and sanity, because you (mostly), understand. So, please keep it mind, we're just trying to keep good company.
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Just don’t tell me I’m not hearing what I’m hearing.
Are you saying no one can help you to pay attention to new things and help you get better at hearing? Ever go birding and have someone show you how to look for birds? I did -- and I learned that I was not seeing what I could be seeing. If you’re saying that you cannot be better at hearing than you are and no one should try to teach you, then I suppose knowing you’re as good as you can be at something -- and that is a kind of accomplishment.
we all hear and process sound differently.
To a degree but if you’re saying it’s so different that we cannot improve or compare, then I don’t see how anyone could ever have created audio equipment with any popularity at all. So, you can’t be saying that.
"baking analogy" -- @mdalton thanks!
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It is hard to disagree with the proposition that when we post on this forum we should be respectful of each others’ experiences, even when they are diametrically opposed to our own. But sometimes it seems to me that some people post on public forums solely for the purpose of getting others to confirm their views (just as some trolls post solely to be contradictory, or show supposed “superiority”). And sometimes these people seem a little defensive even when someone respectfully posts -on a public forum - a different experience or opinion.
@hilde45 - I love your baking analogy btw.
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@mylogic ,
Are you related to Paul Harvey?
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hartf36
A true to life heart felt answer.
People should not just be in love with the term ‘audiophile’ or think it makes them special to believe it’s a unique camp or club to be a member of….like ‘hi-end’
Just enjoying the musical experience and pleasure a hi-fi system generates for you is the most important thing here and not the, ‘l have got this or you need that’ mumbo-jumbo.
Thats my logic.
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One of the biggest mysteries in the audiophile community, at least to me, has always been why so many folks seem to forget (or willfully ignore) that we all hear and process sound differently. I really don't think it's much more complicated than that. Yes, high-end systems may deliver more timbre, detail, sonics, etc. for ears to process. But the processing is still done by the same sets of different ears. Just because additional detail may be presented doesn't mean it will be received and processed, let alone received and process in the same manner as Johnny The Jet Audio Pro. Different ears are different ears. And this doesn't even account for variations in listening space acoustics impacting the frequencies that are presented.
There's a reason EQs became so popular and have a rightful place in some audio gear stacks.
As for the omnipotent trolls? Ehh. F 'em.
Just my 0.03.
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If you want to be MARVIN THE MARTIAN and you pull out or supernitrospectometer good for your you! But to talk down to other audiophiles saying we are gullible and foolish because we allegedly believe in snake oil to me is intellectually arrogant!
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@hilde45 glad that works for you. If it measures perfectly and my ear doesn’t like it. IT’S OUTTA THERE. IT’S USELESS. Music is a get away for me. It’s not work or a science. It’s an experience. Anyone who disagrees with me on that part of it. We are not the same or seeking the same. But if it works for them im not going to judge thier knowledge or experience. Just don’t tell me I’m not hearing what I’m hearing.
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Some are more interested more in the music than the science of it all. Damn a measurement does it sound good to my ear. Is all I need to know.
False opposition for me. I’m interested in the science of it because I listen to music. There can be a connection between the science and the immersive experience of the music.
Perhaps this analogy will ring true: no one who bakes at higher altitudes dismisses those little scientific hints about adjusting the temperature. Just because there are crackpots out there with bad or pseudo-scientific advice about baking doesn’t make me ignore the relevant and helpful scientific advice. And I pay attention because following it makes the food "just taste better."
Of course, maybe the point of this discussion is to shake a fist at "those damn measurement people." Not my bag, man.
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Some are more interested more in the music than the science of it all. Damn a measurement does it sound good to my ear. Is all I need to know.
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Because some people believe in scientific facts and others believe in snake oil marketing.
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I’m a try before you buy kind of guy at this point
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It may be mere apocryhpa, but I've always heard that Oscar Wilde said something along the lines of:
"The need to censor is the most powerful driver of human behavior. Next to it, the sex drive is barely noticeable."
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