Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

@brunorivademar , idler drives ALWAY rumble more than any other drive type. and if you had corrected subwoofers you would know that. That is one of the big reasons they virtually disappeared besides being more complicated and expensive to make. The only reason for idler drive was to be able to change speeds with a constant speed AC motor. There were no electronic drives/variable speed motors at the time. They persisted in the radio industry because you cannot slip cue a belt drive and there is no deep bass in radio. When direct drive came around the idler drives disappeared from the market until renovating old used tables became a thing and the mythology matured. It is worse than wearing someone else's used underwear. 

All one can say when Mijostyn pontificates on one of his gospel truths is “l disagree” and then say why. My highly tweaked Lenco does not produce audible rumble of any kind. But I can’t say why. Mijo has to open up his mind and listen to a well restored idler.

@mijostyn Idler drives don’t rumble if you know how to make a few modifications. Btw did I ever say antique turntables are superior? Don’t put words in my mouth. Anyway you are being too passive agressive and I have no interest in engaging with you. Go get your self a cup of tea.

@brunorivademar , what we are concerned with is, in reality pitch stability. Speed stability in the best modern turntables is inconsequential in comparison to surface irregularities, warps and spindle hole eccentricity in records. There is no such thing as "microsecond timing" when it comes to vinyl playback. The medium is far more inaccurate than even mediocre playback devices. If you want "microsecond timing" throw your turntable away and stick with digital. 

As for the superiority of antique turntables? That is total BS perpetrated by people who sell these things for ridiculous money. Then the people who buy them regurgitate the same BS. Hobbyists use to buy these old table because they were at one time cheap and they were better than similarly priced new tables. Then the thing got a life of it's own in current mythology and the price got jacked along with the BS. I would not have a 927 if it were the last turntable on earth. If that was all I could get I'd sell my record collection to people like you and stick with hi res files. 

The model T is of serious historic significance but I would never want to drive one. If an idler turntable does not rumble much when it is new just give it a few hours and it will rumble like an express train. They will drive anyone with accurate bass down to 18 Hz CRAZY. 

Speed stability is not the only factor to sound quality, there are other important things too, we can all agree on that. But the only thing I can think the 927 has in favor besides the high torque is the much lower deviation from a perfect 33.33 at ALL times. We are talking micro second to microsecond timing. The bearings are nothing special. No vacuum hold down, exotic materials, airbearings. Nothing! :p

@lewm Hi, keep in mind i’m only speaking in terms of measurements, not at all claiming my Thorens is better sounding or anything. I’m also well aware that the Garrards and Lencos are considered superior to the 124. All i’m saying is that with regards to that particular measurement idlers seem to have an advantage because of higher revving motors and thus less motor cogging. I would challenge any direct drive or belt drive turntable owner to share speed deviations and not many would be below +-0.20% Does it make any difference? I have no clue.

 

@rauliruegas I can assure you the gyroscope inside the Shaknspin Fremmer has been using for his reviews is pretty accurate. I believe he is being cautious because the numbers don’t look pretty.

 

Dear @brunorivademar  : Speed stability is only one TT characteristic for a good quality performance but exist other parameters that have in between an intrinsecal realtionship.

 

You took an untrust information as one of your premises for your statements because in this Agon Analog forum the M.Fremer measurements are not what we all imagine. It's not a trust tool as he showed in the reviews and at the end in that discusiion where he participated he told us that he did those measurements " just for fun " and nothing more.

 

This is what MF posted:

 

" I am careful to state that these Platterspeed measurements are for “entertainment purposes only”. All test records are faulty as are all records to one degree or another...""

 

in that same thread you posted:

 

"" 

With regards to speed stability only 3 tables I believe take the crown.

Rockport Sirius III

Grand Prix Audio TTs

Wave Kinetics Reference   ""

 

Yes, speed stability is critical in any TT.

 

R.

R

Well said, @lewm .

And yet the TD124, when compared to even the top level of pedestrian idler drives, like the Garrard 301 and the Lenco L75, comes in third in terms of sonics. to my ears in my system.  Moreover, I have liked many other belt-drive and DD turntables over the TD124, as well. So, either your numbers are questionable, or speed stability is not the paramount determinant of SQ, or we just hear differently. (This says nothing about the EMT 927, which I have not heard.)

Vintage turntables did have heavy platters, vacuum suction, air or magnetic bearings, and high torque motors, although no single one of them had all those supposed virtues (all of which come with some trade-offs.)

Think about it. Modern turntables of today come with tighter bearing tolerances. Much heavier platters. Vacuum suction. Air bearings. Magnetic bearings. High torque motors etc etc. Yet all fail at that test. Take a look at the measurements of all the last uber decks including Airforce Zero, Oma K3 and SAT in stereophile. Constant speed deviations of 0.25% / 0.30% / 0.35%. 

I would bet your 927 is going to show you a deviation of 1/10th of those numbers. My humble TD 124 shows me 0.04%. Timing is everything!

Hi @thuchan .

Do you happen to have a speed deviation measurement device like a shaknspin?

I believe the magic number lies in the speed deviation %. That which Idlers rule above other drives with their high revving motors. Yes DD drives are also high torque and so can overcome stylus drag but they fail at that measurement also.

Not only is the 927 an idler drive (the best idler drive) but it also happens to have a 16" platter which gives it even more superior stability.

I may be wrong but I believe i’m answering the question you presented in this thread.

Hello i have an R80 and I like to sale it. If someone is interested contact me. Thanks 

I am preparing my EMT 927 to go back to it's homeland of Germany to spend some time at the Dusch family spa for a good tune up.  I initially planned to overhaul the unit myself but time and real EMT knowledge are lacking on my part compared to the experts.    

@normansizemore ,

thank you for the nice comments. at this point Saskia model two’s are quite scarce, and have not been shown at an audio show since 2015 i think.

currently i’m using the new Durand Tosca tone arm;
http://www.durand-tonearms.com/Tosca/thetosca.html

and the new Ortofon MC Anna Diamond cartridge;
http://www.ortofon.com/mc-anna-diamond-p-898

Fremer just did a rave review on this new Anna D cart. i used the original Anna for a number of years as my reference, and this new one is really something special.

this particular Saskia model two came with 7 arm boards. the previous owner had quite the tone arm collection.

i had two of the arm boards modified for my current tone arms, and received the one for the Durand Tosca. and am waiting for the one for my other arm, the Durand Telos Sapphire, to arrive back from the turntable designer.

my plan is trying both of these arms and a few others as my budget allows over time. the Saskia i think is a great alternative to my long term reference turntable, the Wave Kinetics NVS direct drive. i’m just in the beginning stages of getting a feel for the differences between these 2 top level tt’s.

btw; there is a thread on the Saskia model two on another forum with pictures and more information; here is a link in case you missed it in your search;

http://whatsbestforum.com/threads/saskia-model-two.28727/

Mike Lavigne, 
I have been scouring the internet looking up your turntable.. very impressive.  Maybe I missed it in a post, but I am curious which arm and cartridge you are using?

It’s so refreshing to see such a well designed table.  I look forward to hearing one. 

Yes, for what I read I would say this beast is definitely in the EMT R80/927 league.

 Very nice!
Norman

Dear @mikelavigne  : Good, that will be really interesting not only for you but for some of us.
R.

Dear @rauliruegas , thank you for the kind words my friend.

i do need to add the Saskia to my system page. i’ve not yet really directly compared it to my direct drive NVS. the Saskia is really something to hear, so we shall see how that plays out.

best regards,

Mike

Dear @mikelavigne  : As always you share good news to the high end audiophiles. Congratulations for the " new kid " in your room/system.

Now, I would like to ask how it compares against your DD turntable that you listen regulary and that's very good performer.

Thank's in advance.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@cd318, thank you for your comments.

and i hope you noticed i specified '1/2"' A-820. i have three A-820's and the 1/2" is pretty much as good as reproduced sound can get.

FYI; the Saskia model two is not a vintage product; my particular example was brand new in 2016. the Saskia was first built in 2007-2008. the builder is Win Tinnon, who’s moniker is Mosin over many audiophile forums.

and if you are a patient sort of person and don’t mind spending a few dollars (it’s not cheap but to my mind an excellent value in performance terms) Win could build one for you.

but no doubt that the Saskia is under the radar and you would have to have been paying attention to know about it. there was never any marketing or dealers.

i did know Win, and heard the Saskia two times at audio shows. it was always in systems that did not allow it to fully strut its stuff, but still it was easy to hear it was something very special. maybe the ultimate idler ever. until i got it into my room a month ago and let it loose i did not realize what it was capable of.

@mikelavigne, "ultra tonal density" and similar presentation to a Studer A-820?

Wow! Sounds like the Saskia 2 could be another 'forgotten' product that should be more familiar to us. 

Sometimes I wonder whether the press deliberately treats us like sheep merely leading us from fashion to fashion. I remember when I first got into audio (mid 80s) and how direct drive was totally out of fashion. Idler drive fared even worse, seemingly a totally taboo relic of the past in the eyes of the UK press.

Thankfully forums like this can rectify some of this neglect. You no longer have to spend decades finding your way around since readily available shared knowledge and experience in this hobby can take you a long way towards sonic satisfaction.

recently i’ve acquired a Saskia model two idler. the Saskia model two has a 180 pound one piece slate plinth, a 40 pound platter, and uses a 3 phase Pabst motor designed to run large film reels for colorizing film for days on end in a commercial application.

i’ve heard a nice EMT 927....but it’s been a couple of years. without having them side by side with the same arm and cartridge it’s hard to know what exactly would happen, my sense is that the Saskia goes farther down the road with the same 927 strengths, and adds a lower noise floor, much greater detail and textures, and more expansive sound stage.

ultra tonal density, phenomenal flow, rock solid sustains and explosive dynamics are fundamental to the Saskia model two. i have a 1/2" Studer A-820 in my system which has a similar type presentation. nuff said.

it’s crazy good and i love to listen to it.

Most my age have heard the SP-10...many times.  No one will ever argue that it isn’t a fine table, but it will never deliver the Pace-Pitch-Power of a 927.  Even the lesser Duals, Garrard, and Lencos with idler drive display this quality.  But when you’re talking about broadcast built tables, EMT , Gates and  Russco Studio can’t be matched.  
Honestly, everything about the table, from the actuation of the speed selectors, to the feel of the spinning platter let you know that what you are using is something very special.  It’s such and impressive machine.   Then there is the music, you never knew you vinyl could convey such emotion.  Even with modest tone arms and cartridges the results are stellar.

N.

Bear in mind that the BBC used to employ the highly regarded idler drive Gates turntable before switching to the Technics SP10. The Technics was seen as more reliable and maintenance free but I don’t recall anyone saying it sounded better than the Gates.

Yes, these new recent Technics decks improve the phenomenal specs (speed stability and rumble etc) even further into the realm of Sci-Fi but perhaps turntable design was as already good as it ever needed to be by 1970!

Perhaps someone could do an original SP10 v new SP10 to confirm this? Or perhaps there’s no need! 

Anyway let’s not forget that many of the so-called audiophile decks that followed couldn’t get anywhere near to the specs achieved by the Technics and a few others.


*Here's a link to an interesting review of an SP10 mk2 by none other than British DJ Kenny Everett from Studio Sound dated September 1977!

https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Studio-Sound.htm

(<9mb PDF Studio Sound September 1977)

I still hear that there might be not a profound understanding of the idler technology. Some describe it as the rattling of the London Underground trains. I really recommend these audiophiles listening to a well serviced EMT 927 /R 80. They will change religion...

best
E.

Hi Peter, Thuchan and I are teasing each other. We both belong
to the old ''German group''. I own Kuzma Stabi Refrence and SP-10
mk2 in Obsidian plinth. I am more obsessed with carts than TT's.
I don't need an third TT. 

Nandric 

How about a EMT 950 ?

Thank you

Peter

Dear thuchan, If your suggestion is that I can't afford EMT 927 
you are wrong. But I must admit no to be able to afford Apolyt (grin).

Dear Nandric,
teasing is one of my specialities.
regarding the new rules I have to concentrate on audio only...

btw. The EMT 927 receives enormous price jumps.
imagine a nearly 60 year old product beating so many young tables!

best
E.

Dear thuchan, My worst ''subject'' at school was mathematics. 
So you can understand that using to many variables is not
to my liking, or, better,  to my capabilities. Regarding my age I
hope ''the older the wiser''. Reg. my ears I never needed to visit
an ''ear specialist''. Regarding my room acoustics I give up.
To complicated for me. But, lucky me, like you I have two
systems one of which is in my bad room. Much smaller but
more to my ''innocente'' liking. 
I had no idea that you are so good in teasing. 

Dear Nandric,
a question of age, ears or room condition?
i was approached by some people who are wearing ear plugs all the time. They told me it will improve the capability of listening, also to good music. I checked myself, so far everything is fine, except of a little valley at around 1000 Hz. No need at the time being.
Room condition: With your new Apolyt arriving soon we might change your room condition a little. Sleeping room or living room? Shall I accompany the table transport?
never forget friends, especially when they are music lovers.
Enjoy.

best
E.

Dear thuchan, I thought you are ignoring your ''old friend''. Thanks for your advice and willingness to help. I would order the Apolyt if I
had sufficient room and money .  My problem is actually that I am
not able to hear the difference between (good) TT's. 

Dear Nandric,
as we see tables rising into half a million I am out of this race. The only one who will be left are you. I heard the Apolyt twice, in Dietrichs new studio it sounds perfect! My R-80 should have doubled its price in the meantime 😊. It is now as old as me. 
Should I order an Apolyt for you?

best
E.

Dear thuchan, Glad to ''see you back''. My thesis was that this
question should be put in present tense because as stated it
should apply for all times. Now speaking of ''present tense''.
I am sure that you have heard the(new)  Apolyt made by our
friend Dertonarm. This TT must be better than EMT 927 considering
the price difference (260000 euro)?

Congrats Lewm!
whenever you have a question just call me or do write.

best
Thuchan

“People”.
Soylent green is people..

People who have heard 927 and 930 said there is a big difference between them.

testpilot, At least our blather is good for SOMEthing!
I am feeling tempted to try out a 930st, which is kind of like going into the ocean up to your waist.  I will now lie down until this feeling of temptation abates. I have no shelf space, for one thing.

TechDas AirForce 1 will do it - but for $100K!

Lewm

I am taking a sonic chance on the EMT 927.  I really don't know what I am getting into as far as the sonic ability's of these big turntables.  I had to sell my former turntable to help afford the EMT.  Buying this was a opportunity that didn't allow much time for hesitation,  but I was able to inspect it in the flesh.  The seller was not willing to ship and I was close enough to make the drive and see it.  So less risk of a scam or any misrepresentation of the unit.  The odds of being able to see one so close to me were low and to see one in Canada and not having to bring the thing across the border or ship was another bonus.  
I could only use the online "hype" of the EMT to help me this purchase.   The risks are low, at least from any financial loss at the price I paid for mine.  It wasn't cheap, but not $40K US.  I was able to buy mine in CND $.   I have had a least a couple of "if you don't want it,  I will take it" emails.

" sybarite" I learned a new word today :-)

I try not to judge either audiophiles or audiophile equipment based on what the former spends or what the latter costs, but I am amazed sometimes, on both counts.  Nevertheless, here we are talking only about the merits of a particular turntable, and I may be the first since the inception of the thread to have brought up $, for which I apologize.
If you knew what my long term investment (over the course of 40 years) in my two separate systems is, you might count me as a sybarite.  On the other hand, I have never paid $40K for a turntable and never will.  But if I had to choose one of my audio systems over the other,.... I could not do that any more than I could work my way up to selling any one of my 5 turntables.

lewm,

$5000.00 for a respectable 927 is an amazing deal.  Really, clean, lube and adjust and their ready for another 50 years.   I’m not saying that $30-40,000 is crazy, but isn’t it?  If that were pocket change to me I wouldn’t spend it on a turntable, or any other piece  of hi-fi equipment.  

The system I’m listening to today is quite a bit less expensive then the one I used 10-15 years ago, and yet today  I’m enjoying music more than ever.  Off the merry-go-round.  

Norman

Norman, What I found to be odd, when I looked on Hi-Fi Shark, was that the pricing fell into two groups: ~$5000US vs ~$30,000US (although I chose to quote the highest price, $40,000 in my recent post).  There were 3-4 tables available in each of these two price ranges with nothing in between, which is to say, nothing in the $7K to $20K range.  The high priced examples were "like new" based on photos.  Some of the ones seen on Hi-Fi Shark could be expired, meaning the tables have been sold or taken off the market.

Mine came out of a radio station and was well used.  It didn’t have the 139st either. 

I’m surprised that you can find them for so low a price, but maybe?  If you’re in the market, I would certainly take a look because you never know.  

The tech I used was familiar with EMT tables and rebuilding them.  But honestly they are so straight foreword any competent tech can probably do a fine job.

I’m gonna check out the link you posted from Stefano, I know he used to own an EMT 930 for awhile.  That’s an interesting thought on the tone arm differences.  

N.

I think the low end is very exaggerated and probably a scam.  Pricing also depends on which 927 it is.  ST is most common.  There are D version with the glass platter  and F version which has two arms on the chassis, those two you don't see as many.  Then there is the R80 which preceded the 927 which very low numbers were made.  
Options on the tables also affects value,  if it has a phono either the early tubed mono phono which is desirable or the stereo tubed phono.  Then you have the SS phono which is less desirable.  If it has the groove indicator,  the quick stop for the platter, the suspension frame,  which arm,  and general condition.  
EMT's are rare but not unicorn rare.  There are many always available if you want to pay.
The great this is you can still get great support from multiple sources with parts and expertise.

 The resurrection of this thread prompted me to take a look at current values of an EMT 927. I was surprised to find that asking prices of examples that are for sale range from about $5000 US to about $40,000 US. Samples in the latter category of course are beautifully and immaculately restored. But samples that are in the low-end of the price range don’t look so bad either. What’s up with that vast difference in pricing?

The biggest thing  with my 927 was taking the motor apart and cleaning and lubing.  The motor was a little noisy when I first got the turntable. After it was restored it was very quite.  
I didn’t even need to repaint mine.  The enamel paint was so thick it would take a hammer swing to mar it.  It was soiled, as was the entire turntable.  The platter bearing is huge, and was perfect.  My bearing was oil based, but I have heard that some are also grease fitted.  (Like Garrard).      

Mine is in very good shape cosmetically.  I would rate it an 8 out of 10.  It has a suspension frame too.  I want to do a good cleaning,  dismantle the motor to clean and lube and then install the new motor mounts.  I have a local tech who will most likely handle the powersupply electronics replacing caps etc...

Have a look at the differences in the two arms supplied with the EMT 927 before they started making the 997. Part of the problem with the RF 297 is it is a heavier arm then the RMA 297 and it may not balance the TSD carts as well as the TSD.
http://www.stefanopasini.it/EMT927-930%20Ortofon%20arms.htm

Paul,

I agree with lewm, there is no reason to discard the arm.  Rewire if necessary but if the bearings are good I would use it.  I used the 3012 because I had it.  It worked fine, just not the best choice.  The 997 would be better, because it is better.

My modest vintage hifi is in a nice cabinet in my living room.  The broadcast 927 was just too big and industrial looking.  I had considered trying a smaller EMT, but I don’t think anything would be like the 927.  

The biggest thing  with my 927 was taking the motor apart and cleaning and lubing.  The motor was a little noisy when I first got the turntable. After it was restored it was very quite.  
I didn’t even need to repaint mine.  The enamel paint was so thick it would take a hammer swing to mar it.  It was soiled, as was the entire turntable.  The platter bearing is huge, and was perfect.  My bearing was oil based, but I have heard that some are also grease fitted.  (Like Garrard).  

I also had the glass platter.  Some are fitted with persplex.  
The only other turntable that has impressed me so much was the Rockport Sirius III, which a client of mine owns.  I wish I could  have heard them side by side.

I also had the broadcast frame.  My frame was spring loaded, so you could jump and the turntable wouldn’t move.  The frame is designed to sit into a console  which if you have the room I would recommend.

The TSD cartridge makes sense.  EMT and Ortofon has many high mass choices.  I also used my Decca Red which worked well.  
If you have space, this is a no compromise turntable.  

I wasn't planning on selling mine.  A fellow agon member asked to hear it.  Afterward, what he offered me on the spot was about three and a half times what I had into it.  So, reluctantly I sold it.

As I said, I miss it everyday.  Eckart has some incredible turntables, but if his system were mine, I would sell them all and keep the EMT.

Norman

So, did you exchange the original Ortofon RF297 arm for an EMT RF297? What don't I understand?  My only point was and is that there is in reality no such thing as a "mono" tonearm, provided one is willing to re-wire.  I would have guessed that re-wiring is less expensive than doing an exchange with a dealer, tonearm for tonearm.  That was my secondary point.