Would I be wasting my money to get a turntable?
I am thinking about getting a turntable but I have a Class D amplifier (Nad M33) which digitizes all the analog inputs. If the amplifier is just digitizing the source is there going to be any difference between the vinyl and just listening to lossless digital streaming sources? Is there any benefit to me, given my current amplifier with has no analog pass through capability, to adding a turntable to my system?
I think the key question here is 'what would you listen to on the turntable?', rather than 'can it sound good?' The answer to the second question is yes, provided you choose a good turntable and set it up well. Would you get an improvement in sound quality vs. a good digital streaming source, properly set up? IMHO, no, but to some extent 'sound quality' is subjective. |
@gregm +1 - I should have been more explicit! |
If you don't already have a fair number of vinyl records, it's not worth it in my opinion. I spent $4500 to get a decent cartridge, TT, and phono preamp. That's a relatively inexpensive setup. It sounds great, but not better than streaming. A few albums do. But, take a look at what good vinyl costs. |
From a technical perspective the question here is does the amplifier have an internal analog to digital converter which takes the analog signal in the preamp stage and converts it to digital and outputs the digital signal. Amplifiers can have digital power stages and the common designation for this is Class D amps. However, if fed an analog signal, which is then amplified, that isn’t the same thing as as changing an analog source to a digital source. I don’t know enough about the NAD amp to answer the first question but I have heard of amps that do place the analog signal in the digital domain. If indeed that is the case with the NAD then I think the OP has asked a fascinating question . And as other posters have indicated it will still probably sound very good. As a practical matter if he has a large collection of LPs that he wants to play. If the answer is no, and he is starting from scratch, I would stick with streaming or CDs, because it’s all going to end up as a digital waveform |
Perhaps the Sugar Cube example provides insight into this question. A Sugar Cube is a gadget that removes clicks and pops from scratchy or otherwise noisy records. It does this by making an instantaneous copy of the music digitally, automatically editing out the noise, and then allowing the cleaned up signal to be amplified and played. The user can compare before and after to hear what the effect is both of the noise reduction and of digitization of the musical signal. It is so effective that many users simply leave it on full time. In other words the digitization of analog signals as a serious degradation of purity is greatly exaggerated. There is no reason for you to deny your desire to add a turntable and records to the enjoyment of your hobby. |
@carlsbad2 + 1 |
The basic answer is ’energy efficiency’ - by converting the (voltage amplified) signal into a PWM (or other modulation technique) signal, and then filtering that PWM to retrieve the audio signal, the transistors in the final stage are always ’open’ or ’closed’, thus dissipating minimal energy. Note that in many power amps the analogue-to-digital conversion happens only at the final power stage, which is where ’traditional’ amps consume most energy, however the NAD seems to convert phono signals to digital earlier than that. |
Digitizing itself isn’t going to kill the vinyl sound; I’ve had quite good results with Meridian 808i DAC / preamp units that digitize all analog inputs input and apply DAC / filtering on output - even with very high end vinyl gear. It can be suprisingly transparent. The main thing is that if you're used to a tube preamp, you won't get its added warmth and fullness from any digital preamps (as line stages they are a bit clean and dry) - though you COULD pipe the digital preamp into an input of a tube preamp... That said, I also had the NAD M12 digital preamp and did not like its sound, at all. The M22 amp was fine, but the M12 did not make the cut here - I think even their older M51 DAC might have been better. |
One class D is not digital in anyway, Two his amp has room correction software so if he is using it yes its digitizing all inputs regardless. Three if you dont' have records already i would pass on them its expemcive to do well, takes up considerable room, takes a long time to accumulate records, new records are expencive. If your a collector type maybe records are for you. |
What do you call the conversion of an analogue signal to a PWM/PDM or ΔΣ modulation and its subsequent filtering to recover an amplified analogue signal? Because if that’s not digital, then CD is not digital and streaming is not digital either. However, that’s exactly what happens in a class-D amp, at some point. The filtering is at the very end, but the signal conversion can happen at the amp input or just before the final (current) amplification stage. |
dlevi67, "What do you call the conversion of an analogue signal to a PWM/PDM or ΔΣ modulation and its subsequent filtering to recover an amplified analogue signal?" yes analogue still. no ones and zeroes involved here so not digital. there is no digital (I.e. code) in a class D amp, period. your confusing the differences here. Class D has been around since 1958 well before digital anything was a thing in Audio. I'd suggest you do a google search and read up on the differences, class D was just the next letter in the alphabet after class C. |
The sound quality you get is a result of the components you choose. If you choose poorly you can get vinyl that sounds harsh and trebly and digital that is warm and musical... although it is still easier to get the opposite as cheap components tend to favor the more forgiving vinyl. Since you can craft digital or vinyl to sound which every way you like, there is just no advantage to vinyl any more. If you have dollars that you can invest in analog... invest in getting better digital. |
I think it’s not so black-and-white whether class D is or is "not" digital. Sure if you’re getting into a semantics war, it doesn’t meet the criteria of digital quantization and conversion. But some of the elements / patterns are certainly there, and I think @dlevi67 is correct to point them out. Anyways, in true Audiogon fashion, this sidebar isn’t even fully relevant to OP because the preamp stage of his M33 converts ALL analog inputs to digital (ADC), before it even hits the class D amp stage. Maybe it can directly convert that to the necessary PWM without an intervening DAC stage - that might mitigate the issue I had with the separate M12 + M22 combination's SQ? |
@carlsbad2 Tell us more.
I’m sorry, but the one who is confused is you. The technique used in class D (which I agree does not stand for ’Digital’) is the same PWM (or other pulse-based modulation) used to convert an analogue signal into a digital stream for CD or other digital medium and back into an analogue format. Neither more, nor less. If there are ’digital sound quality’ issues due to quantization or filtering, they would emerge in this transformation neither more nor less than in an ADC converting an analogue signal. The fact that potentially the only operation performed on the pulse stream so obtained in a class D amp is amplification, and it is not treating the digital stream in other ways, is neither here nor there: they are 1s and 0s whether you like it or not: the transistor is either saturated or cut-off, and in fact any use in the linear zone is not only not-favoured; it is discouraged and unwanted. The analogue signal is not recoverable unless you use the same techniques to demodulate and filter the pulse stream that are used in a DAC (obviously with much higher currents and voltages, but again that is irrelevant). I’d suggest you get a degree in EE, then perhaps we can google together from the same basis of understanding. |
In class D amplifier "Voltage" is converted to "Duty Cycle", both analog - meaning there is no discrete steps (unlimited resolution). Duty cycle is back-converted to (amplified) voltage by filtering. Streaming and CDs both have limited resolution (16 bit in CDs).
|
Guys we are an NAD dealer the m33,does indeed digitize an analog signal in order to use DiRAC Room Correction for all sources.
so your answer is the analog input will sound different then streaming but if you want to hear the best in analog I would trade in the m33 and go up up to the nad M66 which has a true analog Preamp as well as an improved dac.
Dave and Troy Audio intellect NJ Nad masters dealer |
What happens when your PWM’s oscillator signal frequency is not high enough? Who determines what frequency is "enough"? The resolution is not infinite unless the frequency is infinite (impossible). This is at least vaguely analogous to the sampling rate in digital quantization. Then you have the output filtering to smooth out artifacts from a finite frequency oscillator, and this is analogous to that phase of DA conversion. |
@audiotroy the M33 accepts a digital signal, uses Dirac, then has a DAC, then an Amp. Jerry |
@fritzenheimer “Would I be wasting my money to get a turntable?" being audiophile IS about wasting money! :-) Sure! nice DD/heavy-BD TT with good cartridge is $$$$! I see you are looking to replace M33 with.. I would recommend to look class A amp if you don’t need more than 40W output power, AB class SS amps with high bias are cool when you need to shake the3 walls! Tube amps, sound extremely “analog” and are more “analog” than SS brothers, but pl be prepared for high maintenance cost, tube replacement etc. |
you are welcome @thecarpathian
|
@tomic601 😍 sent |
@bigtwin much more concise :) |
This frequency, likely >0.5MHz limits amp's bandwidth. My older Icepower was limited to 60kHz, resulting in 20deg phase delay at 20kHz. It can affect summing of the highest harmonics (that I cannot hear anyway). Zobel network on the output leaves about 1% of the ripple, but the membranes at this frequency don't move. This 0.5MHz frequency is about 100 times higher than highest root frequency in music resulting in practically unlimited resolution. I agree, there are limitations of class D, like of any other class - I was just stressing, that the fact of switching output between two voltage values doesn't make it digital since these constant voltages are not the quantity of interest at this point (duty cycle is). |
| Post removed |
This can be fun technics has reasonable turntables at great prices.best buy has some inexpensive you may be able to try it take it back by 15 days.you may have a pre amp with a moving magnet or moving coil stage.then you could go to yard sales ,good will salv army and hunt for vinyl.not the fence type but think of the fun you can have doing this on a budget.then when you think vinyl is art of your streaming,cd system cuz it's fun to change it up.my first turntable was best buy 150 with stylus plug and play now I have 6 all bought used.they hook up to pre amp with phono stage then out of preamp into splitters that take them into class a krell,class a/b michi class h, and multiple class d amps.they all sound great.enjoy the hunt. |
A good vinyl collection would take years to assemble and cost somewhere between $50,000 and $100,000. However, one definition of an audiophile is a person with $50,000 to $100,000 of audio equipment and a dozen LPs which he uses to listen to his equipment (not to the music). That definition comes from a man who owned a store for 40 years serving audiophiles. He was in the business because he loved, and was very knowledgeable about, music. He had a collection of many thousand LPs. We bonded over our mutual admiration of the transcendent voice of Elly Ameling. A music lover could be transported by her voice with one of her LPs played on a $2,000 system. |
Yes, back to the original question - "is vinyl worth it"? I listen to a lot of rock / metal / pop / new wave from 1970s through 1980s, and for this material the sound quality on vintage vinyl is often far more enjoyable compared to what’s available on digital formats - at least, that’s how I hear it. The overall mastering quality is what’s at play here; it’s not JUST the "loudness wars" thing, and usually the difference is large enough that it overrides other concerns like: extra ADC / DAC conversion, DAC quality, tubes vs SS, $400 vs $4000 cartridge, or Class D versus class A / AB. If I were focused mostly on music produced since the 1990s, new music, and reissues of older albums, then I’d honestly be hard pressed (haha) to recommend vinyl at all - some of the new music releases are superb on vinyl, but so is the digital side. And frankly, used vinyl prices have gone up so much in the last 10-15 years, that if I were starting out fresh today it would be a real bummer. The only silver lining is there’s a LOT of cool older analog gear available on the used markets - so if you like to experiment (like I do), the world is your analog sandbox. Like all things in this hobby, we can (and do) discuss the pros vs. cons all day long, but the only way to figure out which side you fall on is to dip your toe in. Sometimes I find the pundits right, sometimes wrong - and I’ve surely doled out plenty of advice that has fallen both ways too :-/ |
Vinyl isn't the money pit that many would have you believe, depending on your wants/needs. For many people, myself included, the fact that a rock being dragged through a piece of plastic can sound so amazing is kind of magical. There is a ritual to playing a record that appeals to me (and again, many others) that cannot be replicated by pushing a play button or tapping an ipad. Of course, I love the range of options and choices I have with streaming but it doesn't connect with me in the same way as my records do. Awesome for music in my car, at my desk at work, turned up so I can hear it while I bop around the house, etc, but when I sit down in the old sweet spot I don't even consider putting on a streaming source. I've said it before, black licorice is the best candy. Don't agree? No problem! It doesn't affect my enjoyment one whit. When I started down this road I hadn't heard the term "audiophile" and wouldn't hear it for years (decades?). All I knew was that I spent many pleasurable hours lying on the floor in front of a pair of my parents' Thorens turntable connected to a Marantz integrated amp driving a pair of Sansui speakers (you know, the ones with the grills that looked like carved wood). Of course, back then I had no clue whatsoever that these were "high quality" audio brands, but I believe I would have still caught the bug if it was a Realistic rack system. Long story short - get a turntable. Get a few of your favorite records. If you don't feel like you made the right decision, you can sell the lot for a little less than you paid and call it a day. The rabbit hole is only as big as we indivually make it. |
