To @avsjerry, enjoy and spending time on the crossovers can make a nice difference. The Heil really comes to life. I finally got help on my final crossover decision, and it took a while. Here is my last and final crazy design.
The first time I tried them with my former Cary V12R tube amp I was floored. I power them now with either KT120 / KT150 monbblock tube amps -or- Class A solid state amp. The Walnut was a nostalgic lookback to the past, and doing something different with the Great Heil, sound comes out the back and to the sides in a reverse horn effect. When the amps are warm, it generates 3D sound. :) Family room space is limited and yes they are rear ported, it just works.
That’s two separate crossovers per speaker there. The parts cost paid off.
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Always a pleasure to read some details and thoughts about the Heil AMT's. @decooney To have it imparted by one who had been in the trenches at ESS is a special treat. ;) Having been a fan of their qualities that span effortlessly over the range produced by a seemingly tiny radiator is modern magic. *S*
Along with a new pair, I've an older pair that came with the original Xovers which still work. Replacing at minimum the caps is but one of the projects on my bucket list, as well as bi-amping them. So your comments regarding what watts would work well in the care and feeding are appreciated. *5's* with a +10...
I'll have to wander over to AK and give the locals a break from this Walsh Wacko for awhile.. ;)
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@sputz do you still have your 3-way AMT3s? Or, what did you have, read on if yes.
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If you still have them and update the crossovers by simply replacing the existing parts, and selecting more sensitive/rigid and responsive woofers and midrange, they can clean up nicely. A few threads over on AK on this, and AMT3s too.
Once updated, a nice SS amplifier with added current changes the sound of the Heil, woofers, and midrange with more grip and control. The worst to do is to underpower them. i.e. Running lighter duty 100w vs. 500w amplifiers with dual torroidal output transformers can really wake them up, more responsive, more dynamic. I tried several amps with all of my former AMT-Monitors and AMT-1Cs. A notable difference with higher quality amplifiers or bi-amping AMT-Monitors, AMT3s.
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Piega is a good choice. I had a pair of P10s years ago. A little power hungry, but excellent speakers.
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I hope people realize that if one wants to build their own, on occasion ESS sells a pair of the Heils with all the mounting hardware and rubber gaskets for $250/pair brand new on their web site.
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@fatdaddy2 Look into Piega
Nice. Seems Piega has a sale going on too for their smaller units. And, speaking of paring smaller/faster drivers with their AMT, and running a sub separately, here it is. A link to the Piega USA site here, and a pic. Enjoying this thread and what y’all find.
They’ve got some massive ribbon speakers too, kinda reminds us of the older Infinity line of speakers. Nice to see fun options out here. :) For the OP too...
https://www.piegausa.com/products/premium-701-speakers
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Plenty of DIY dual 6.5s and AMTs in 2.5-way configurations out there for a while now across forums
Gryphon had these a few years back. Heard them at shows a few times. Nice.
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....and, at the starting $'s for the 10's, I could diy the entirety's concept.
I would cheat and do 4, since I've already have that in large Heils'.
My question would be what 6.5 raw mid would be this crowd's fav.?
Not too much 'overlap' at top & bottom....and 'nimble'....
It's/they have a hard act to follow.... ;)
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@larryi , the AMT 1B’s had a single driver on the face facet with a matched diameter passive on the back...
If the bass seemed out of phase, it really was the room.
I had an early version of an octave eq that came with a dinky but calibrated mic.
And the means to DSP the space with white noise that likely made the neighbors think our vacuum cleaner had been plugged into the wrong plug....
The issue with AMT drivers ’in general’, imho, is matching the response speed of the bass drivers to keep up. My approach is to have a ’mid/high’ 6.5" bass unit(s) and dump the low bass into a healthy sub or 4.....
Like the ’look’ of the Line 10’s over the Cinnamons’......the latter would be a tough sell to the sig other....
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@arion Check out Arion Audio speakers...
Certainly worthy of some links to pics. Wow, those are some serious AMTs!
Very interesting open-baffle designs. Others coming in April 2025 eh’. Very Cool.
https://arionaudio.com/speakers/
Way more than a 3-way, in a line array, huge AMT sound. Holy cow. :)
Three-Way, Five Driver Dipole Full Range Floor Standing Design
2-Ways, smaller
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Check out Arion Audio speakers. (disclosure, I am the designer/owner)
We design and manufacture our own AMT drivers. Our entire line is based on AMT drivers. All of our speakers are OB.
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@tomic601 so the MTM w mid bass drivers of 7” or so with a sub makes sense…just my .02$….
That configuration is darn close to my own custom built setup:
- Dual 8" Nomex mid-woofer/midrange
- --Peerless Tymphany version
- ESS AMT Great Heil
- --updated AMT diaphragms
- MTM configuration
- 1200hz crossovers, custom
- --isoberic chamber tested
- 92.5 db sensitivity, 4ohm
- Walnut enclosures, not baffle
- Tune ported at rear
- +Dual custom 12" Scanspeak stereo subwoofers
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While I have voiced enthusiasm for open baffle speakers, this does come with the warning that dipole speakers often do not go very deep in bass response because the opposite phase front and back waves tend to cancel each other at progressively increasing amount as frequency goes down. This is true of dipole panel speakers as well. I am not a bass freak so this is not as big a deal to me as it might be to others.
The original Heil AMT speaker had a dipole AMT driver but the bass was delivered by a more conventional woofer that was not used in dipole configuration. That speaker had serious problems with the two drivers not integrsting well. That problem persisted with the new iteration that is out now. But, other builders have been successful matching heil drivers with conventional drivers so it can be done.
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Thanks again everyone.
I think tomic601 and decooney are on to it. Extended, detailed bass, but with mid bass slam. Beautiful dipole fast and accurate highs. 3 way with HEIL. I never thought of a high current amp. I was thinking tube preamp to tame upper midrange beam.
I learn something from this site often. Been lurking and learning. Only commented a couple times.
Still interested in those beautiful Cinnamon Audio speakers. I don’t think they are available to my budget. But, I can hope.
Is the Qualio midrange ran up high, or do they make good use of Mundorf AMT?
Does that midrange work for slam and dynamics?
Thought they made use of full range midrange.
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I can vouch for the Qualio IQ as being the real deal. It's a lot of loudspeaker for the money.
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You've just got to make your own, like I did, though they don't have the looks you crave.
Mine use a JBL 18", a JBL 10", and a Great Heil, modified unlike any other Heil out there.
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We displayed and sold 3 or 4 pair ( 80’s memories while vivid.are fleeting ) ADS 2030…. bid kidz fun
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thats a nice collection of ADS speakers you have, selling any of them?
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certainly a very constructive and orderly thread…. i always thought the magic of the real ( my words ) of the O.H. AMT was the large format dipole model. Why 3 way . is the driver can’t do mid bass slam…. 100 ish to 400 ish hz ( also why OP ADS w lovely dome mids can’t do it either )…. so the MTM w mid bass drivers of 7” or so with a sub makes sense…just my .02$….
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@sputz Truly like bass. I must be a bass head ? But with details.
This also has a lot to do with your amplifier. Not just the speakers. Also fast mains paired with really good subwoofer(s) for lower-end duties can be a good mix too.
Imo, might be time to step up from the SA 760 to another amplifier with some real current and added grip, control of the drivers. As you likely well know that’s a whole separate thread on its own. I’m experimenting with that again now with my own AMTs comparing higher current tube amps, with pure Class A 50w solid state amplification. I might go back to trying other higher current Class A/AB amps again in the next year. There is something about sound pressure with the right amp(s) for powering AMT based loudspeaker systems.
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Wow. I appreciate every single response. Thank you all! Some truly great ideas, and beautiful speakers. I love having my eyes opened. I knew of Qualio Audio. I have been interested in those. I knew of the Monitor Audio Platinum PL-300 series. Heard good things about them, but, was worried my little Simaudio 760a amp with 130 watts at 8 ohms would be enough. Those Cinnamon Audio looks like my unicorn!! My ohhh my. Beautiful! If they sound as good as they look I would be a happy camper! Now, for the sticker shock. I have not heard of that brand.
does Qualio Audio have the bass slam and dynamics??
Truly like bass. I must be a bass head ? But with details. I think I am sensitive to metal tweeters and definitely cheap horns. Also, if midrange beams.
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The Ellipticum Cinnamon Audio speaker I heard at the 2024 Capital AudioFest sounded really nice. It has a DSP-controlled active woofer, the rest of the speaker is powered by an amplifier supplied by the buyer. I thought it delivered one of the best sound I heard at the show.
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Good question raised by @larryi, why 3-way? This is one of the key attributes of the Heil design; the ability to cover a larger frequency span effectively negating the need for a 3-way (which makes it more challenging then a 2-way to blend all the drivers).
The Pure Audio Project Trio10 Heil's a really special speakers (albeit lower efficiency then for example the Trio15 Voxative)
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@larryi Cinnamon Audio offers a three way with the Heil tweeter, also in open baffle configuration..
Post by @larryi above worthy of a few pictures.
Some of these are 97db closer to what the OP was looking for. 10ohm tube amp friendly too. Very nice. Could be time to break the wallets out, wow,- or - reserve these for the bucket list.
https://cinnamonaudio.com/loudspeakers
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I like the PureAudioProject Trio with the Heil tweeter a lot, as well as the Duo speaker which has only one woofer. Both speakers are, however, two-way speakers. I don't know why three-way was specified. The Heil driver is capable of covering a quite large range of frequencies and is most often employed in two-way designs. The Heil driver and the woofers are used in open baffle configuration so that all drivers act as dipole drivers--the rear going sound is in opposite phase to the sound projected forward.
Cinnamon Audio offers a three way with the Heil tweeter, also in open baffle configuration. Their speakers are very good sounding but are considerably more expensive than the PureAudioProject speakers.
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Hey @sputz If you have the funds and don’t care about Di-Pole AMTs, one of the best AMT implementations of the AMTs I heard at a show once, >> Gryphon <<.
The lower models like the Pantheon 3-ways are are not as efficient,
Gryphon Trident, 94db. Likely needs two monobock amps with real current imo,. Large AMT at the center, MTM style configuration like I run with mine today.
Drool starts here: https://gryphon-audio.dk/the-collection/loudspeakers/
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@sputz ...ESS 3 ways with HEIL..
AMT3s are di-pole, the air motion transformer electrostatic diaphragm sound you are appreciating, the design, and driver configuration is not easily replicated today. I completely designed my own version ground up with dual 8" Nomex woofers in place of the midrange and slow woofers from the originals. Requires all new crossovers to get the best out of the AMT and blending the woofer(s) or midrange properly. Few do the 3-way copies well imo. Keep in mind you are familiar to the older AMT sound, me too. I worked at ESS early 80s, an much better parts since.
Few others presented will equal the TYPE of di-pole AMT sound you like now. With your mention of Klispch, I suspect you’re just looking for the faster midrange and woofers speed. Lots of people try AMTs and few do it well. PAP, Gryphon, Quailo maybe.
Mundorf, Beyma, Dayton and others have all created AMTs that are unlike the AMT Great Heil. Each with their own designs and configuration, yet not the same. Looking at your 760 amp, I’d say PAP or Quailo might get you closer.
In attempt to equal your AMT3s (if that’s what you truly have), the Quailos open top section might be of interest, or the Pure Audio Project too. Check out Quailio too, check this. You’ll see people walking up behind them at shows trying to capture and listen what’s coming from the front wall. Well, it’s the back side of Di-Pole AMTs.
Some of the modern designs use the Mundorf AMTs. Best of Luck.
https://www.qualioaudio.com
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op legacy focus
why
heil tweeter and midrange
94 db efficiency
double carbon fire and silk midrange drivers for tremendous slam
two 12inch woofers rated flat to 18hz
known for great clarity incredible dynamics and very deep bass. and a huge soundstage
dave and Troy
Audio intellect NJ
ESS AMT1d owner and legacy dealer
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PS Audio FR-10, FR-20 or FR-30.
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Try the Monitor Audio Platinum series.
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Since the patents ran out, I've noticed numerous companies using the Heil Air Motion Transformers or some variations of it. Very popular. Pure audio project is a good one I have heard a few times now.
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