As a follow up, I should have stated approximately $5000.
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Only 92db?? That’s not very efficient at all. Try these very audiophile speakers. Put them on your highest fidelity dacs and amps.
Yamaha CZR-12, Price: ~2k/pair Sensitivity 1W/1m: 97 db (passive) 8 ohm
Pioneer XY-122, Price ~6k/pair, but, you could beat it down to 5k with the dealer Sensitivity: 101 db 8 ohm
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Well, I agree that 91dB is not that sensitive, however coupled with a flat 80hm speaker with a rather narrow phase angle makes for a pretty efficient speaker to my thinking. What I failed to do was describe my listening environment. Basically a dedicated room treated to my liking that has the volume of a ~12x15' roo | |||
Why 92dB? You’re better off choosing a speaker by how it sounds in your room rather than any spec. IME, most speakers with over 90dB sensitivity have significant drawbacks in other areas, such as low maximum output or very truncated bass extension. The Fritz speakers are a pretty easy load for most amps and your room is fairly small. | |||
Thanks to all who have responded so far. My thinking is that Sensitivity + Impedance + Phase angle = Efficiency. My understanding of these factors are not complete. The way I view this, sensitivity has much to do about how loud a speaker will play into a room of a given size. I consider 92dB to be on the high end of the mid, or low end of the high range, for this spec. I should have stated 'at least 92db'. Impedance and phase angle have much to do about how much power is required by an amplifier to drive a speaker to reach the desired loudness within said room. I am searching for speakers that would make a lesser demand on a power amplifier than that of my Fritz speakers, which I do consider an easy load. I will search out the Reference 3a mm de Capo and the Living Voice speakers. I seen mention of both on this forum, however have not heard either.
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This is correct. However, there do exist some high sensitivity speakers that have rather tough impedance phase angles. Also, keep in mind that there is no real standardization for how manufacturers can rate their sensitivity. Some brands claim to base their spec on anechoic performance, while others include boundary/wall gain. Some manufacturers are altogether dishonest about their products’ sensitivity and/or nominal impedance. It’s not uncommon for brands to inflate the sensitivity spec by 5+ dB. What is your ultimate goal? To use flea-watt tube amps? Better dynamics at low SPLs? Given your room size, you are likely using less than 10 watts of power most of the time. This isn’t to say you wouldn’t benefit from speakers of higher efficiency, but it really depends on your goals. An efficient speaker is not necessarily a dynamic speaker either. Yes, higher efficiency does tend to correlate with better dynamics, but correlation ≠ causation. Some of the best low-volume dynamics I’ve achieved were from speakers of <85dB sensitivity. Much of a speaker’s perceived dynamic range comes from its bass performance, and thereby, its woofers. In my experience, dynamic sounding woofers have high compliance suspensions, low-mass diaphragms, and a low nominal impedance, preferably all three. It’s for that reason that the DIY speaker community tends to prefer 4-ohm woofers, vs the 8-ohm version of the same woofer. But it’s also possible to make such woofers sound constrained and lifeless with poor implementation. All this is to say that you can’t really judge a speaker by manufacturer specs. Even Klippel measurements are mostly useless for insight into subjective performance with your system, in your room.
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Just out of curiosity, why? Are you sensing your amp is straining or do you think the speakers aren’t fully opening up? Your room is small the Fritz speakers aren’t a tough load so I’m wondering. What amp are you using? | |||
These open ended questions will get you the answers you are receiving. What are you using to drive your speakers? I run 93db MHorn Mummy’s with a 12w Tron 211 amp and 17w Miyajima OTL’s in my room which is about the same size as yours and have plenty of dynamics and headroom. I couldn’t use a 2a3 amp but a 300b at 8w would be plenty on these speakers. If you like your speakers now look at upgrading your amp. | |||
OP From what I gather, you seem to avoid speakers with low bass. in feb nobody seemed to be able to help re: Bel Canto REF 500s amplifier, what did you end up doing for amp power? "I am using a pair of Magnapan LRS+ speakers in a ~15x12x8 sized room and am looking for a SS amplifier to pair with my Aric Audio Super tube preamp. " now "I currently own Fritz Carbon 7s SE MK2." ............................................... I am thinking more info will give members insight, perhaps post some photos in a Virtual System, it's pretty easy. My take, you can put larger speakers with low bass in that size room, I would try that before mixing subs later to solve the lack of low bass. I'm not talking huge or extended low bass, not swarm, just decent full range capability with excellent imaging. I typically advise high efficiency so that it is easier to use Tube amps now or in the future, and avoiding low impedance as you intend is also wise for that possibility. Less Cost, Heat; More Options in lower price category, Easier to Place, perhaps Mono Blocks to disburse the heat and split the weight of big transformers.
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Hey @mesch is there anything else about the next pair of speakers you'd like to try or venture into that you've not tried prior? i.e. baffle size, driver configuration, etc. For example one of our members here has demoed (narrow baffle) small bookshelf (2-way) and then ventured in to floor stander (3-way) speakers, also owns the Fritz. I walked through some the journey with him. During that journey, I also suggested trying wider front (wide baffle) speakers next for a different type of sound with his next set of slightly more efficient speakers. This is in progress now. Maybe he'll chime in later on down the road. For example, with the builds I've done, spent quite a bit of time with 2-ways with TW, various tweeter and woofer types. I then decided a few decades ago I kinda liked the sound of WTW, or some refer to it as MTM configuration. I position the tweeter (AMT or Ribbon) at ear level in my seated position. This might be more suitable for lower efficiency speakers and listening preferences. For example, my current custom speakers are 92.5 6ohm in MTM driver configuration. Sometimes MTM can be too much of a good thing for some people's listening preferences yet I tend to be a low-midrange freak so I love this with tube amps. Will stop there. Best of luck. | |||
A friend of mine has a pair of Living Voice speakers, I think maybe older R25's? He got them for a steal price because of some small dings in the cabinets, but they can be had for less than $5K. You'll pry my old ProAc Response 2's out my of cold, dead hands, but I found these to be very similar in having excellent imaging and a vivid midrange. In fact, he bought them to replace his own ProAc Response 2's so he could run single-ended amps. He listens to more contemporary music than I do, and they did very well with that but also classical and jazz. I really enjoyed listening to them for two days, and if I had the money I would even consider replacing my ProAcs. | |||
@elliottbnewcombjr yeah that is the opposite direction, the Sanders 10E site shows they like to pair them up with a powerhouse 500w-900w Magtec Class AB amplifier.
--------------------------------------------- Other: My local dealer has Soundlabspeakers, and I’ve heard the Majestic 545px 8ohm speakers driven with my same Quicksilver 60-100wpc tube amps and they sound glorious too. Lower efficiency and 8ohms, yet the tube amps do okay with them fwiw. https://www.soundlabspeakers.com/majestic/ Actually he’s had the super large 945 units there and drove them with my same QS Mono 120 tube amps without issue, with the higher 8ohm impedance. I like the size of the shorter 545s with wider front size. Would the OP go for these, who knows ;). Neither of these are "efficient" though, not even close. Not efficient. Tube amp capable, maybe
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The Fritz Carbon 7s is hard to beat with your requirements. A step up would be the Joseph Audio Pulsar Graphene but at a cost. Please take a look at these other options with benign load requirements, in that price range: https://nsmt-loudspeakers.com/Performance-Series https://www.pispeakers.com/contents.html Dieter
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@mesch - taking your current speaker specs and adding 3db “just for good measure “ is a convoluted way to go about this. Usually, one can get a sense of a speaker’s power requirement is by analyzing the phase/impedance vs frequency plot (impedance variations, phase angles) and the sensitivity. It would be much easier for us to help you if we knew the make+model of your amp so we can get a much better idea of what it can drive. Another strategy is to look for reviews of your amp to see what speakers they are using. As speaker synergy is important it might lead you to ideal amp/speaker combos. | |||
I got the Volti Razz in its "Decorator Series" guise. That saves you $2000 off the list for a finished pair (so, $5500 vs $7500). I got then painted at a furniture refinishing place, and they did a great jo. You could do it yourself. It comes in plain Baltic Birch, and can be a blank slate for you. I think they are 97 db, and my 8 wpc SET amp drives them with ease. | |||
Again, I very much appreciate the feedback I have been given. I am in process of researching the speakers suggested. I find myself thinking that I initiated this post somewhat in haste and maybe should has given it more thought. I Currently have 3 amplifiers in use in this system (have another system for the living room). They are: Pass XA25, Aric Audio Transcend PP tube; and a PS Audio S300. The Pass and Aric amps are in use with the Fritz speakers. The Pass and the PS Audio are used with my Magnapan LRS+ speakers. The PS amp provides greater power with far less heat for summer months. I have been toying with the purchase of Aric's KT88 SET amp provides from 7 to ~ 20 wpc depending on tube and mode used. I have driven the Fritz with the Transcend PP rated at 16wpc using EL34 tubes in triode mode quite satisfactorily. I have been in contact with Aric regarding using this SET amp with the Fritz. I totally agree with @scotandholly that the Fritz. are hard to beat, even at 2X their price. My thinking is that there are not many speakers below 10K in price that would fit my room, have the flat 8ohm impedance and modest swing in phase angle of the Fritz Carbon7, and better their true 89dB sensitivity by 3dB. Thanks again for your attention towards my quest.
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Mesch, received your note. Agon wont let me reply back without a CC which I wont do, as I don’t trust the security here after experiencing basic site errors I see periodically... Can’t complain for a no-cost site yet not sure I’ll keep my PII or CC info here, and I work in related industry fwiw. SET / softer sound? If you are looking for the softer sound by looking at SET amps, as you may know, you can also try speakers with different high / mid frequency drivers too fwiw. For example, you can chat offline with member @hilde45, I heard his Ascend at his place, and he has the new V2s, 91db, 8ohm impedance. They are great with lower power 20-60w amps too, depending on room and listening distance. The freq response does not seem to drop below 5ohms, pretty flat, and for the $, I gotta say I cannot attempt to design, parts source, cabinets. and build a pair close to this for the $. I spoke to the owner of Ascend, I like how he thinks and makes incremental progress tweaks. Hilde’s also tested both pairs of Fritz with metal and soft domes too. Worth chatting with hilde oflfline, he’s been offline a while but still around. You might also consider those new Ascend Sierras too at $3895/pair. For the $ I think they handily compete with some other speakers up to 2x the price. I recently went over to a friends house who bought my last pair of my custom speakers built for myself. They were designed to accomodate alloy or soft dome tweeters. He asked me to come over and swap from the aluminum back to the soft dome tweeters. We listened and compared and the tone and texture was nice with the soft domes. I modeled these after the older 2007 Proac Response 3s that were 8ohm with soft domes, lower 89db MTM configuration that I like most- and while efficiency is lower, still tube friendly like the Ascend Sierrra IIs are. I only bring this up because he’s played around quite bit with Fritz musical speakers too fwiw.
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