being few decades experienced analog circuit designer / sound engineer / and audiophile, I can add:
1) no design whatsoever is possible without obeying standards, user expectations, and measurements! most discrepancy btw measurements and advanced user are related to not sufficient measurements coverage, e.g. phase, low power transient response accuracy, dynamics, etc. measurements are needed for volume manufacturing process, which helps to ensure all units meet design target spec, all components vendors meet their spec, readability, etc! manufacturing quality tests (measurements) include accelerated aging test, component selection, stress test, shock and vibe, etc.
2) listening, by experienced users, is needed to ensure design engineers included in design target spec all what is affecting SQ. unfortunately currently used audio gear specifications are under-specified, which is causing test-actual sound discrepancy.,
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@ghdprentice
+1 back at you. Good designers know that measurements, no matter how high tech and well-performed, fall pretty far short of investigating the subjective experience of hear audio as music. The only way they can bridge the gap is with their own ears. And ears can be "trained" with experience, growing more productive as measurement tools over time (something test equipment doesn't do, though AI may change that to a degree).
There are some designers who won't deign to use listening as a design tool, who put all their faith in measurements and technology. If I know that about them, I don't go near whatever pproducts they design. Life is too short.
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@desktopguy
+1 As a starting point... then to get right sound the designer swaps subcomponents and listens to differences. Great designers know "the sound" of different brands of subcomponents (like resistors, capacitors... etc.) and can make choices while designing to craft sound they want.
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It's not just you.
Measurements have their place in designing audio gear. But on the music enjoyment front, the only test instruments that matter are ears + brain.
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This turned out to be quite the thread.
Just out of pure curiosity, I wonder how many people on this thread are members of organizations such as the Audio Engineering Society (A.E.S.), or related groups such as the Acoustical Society of America (A.S.A.) or similar.
I guess the broader question is how many people on Audiogon belong to such societies.
Thanks in advance,
Mark
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physics and math might be absolutes, our understanding of the entirety of both ( and much more ) is what is VERY lacking… i’m deeply involved in the bleeding edge of quantum computing…. oh how easy it…could be…
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@toronto416
+1 Yep. Sound quality of music... dozens of variables on inputs and dozens on outputs. So many that measurement tend to be such gross oversimplifications that they don't conform to the sound you hear a bit.
There is a reason you get taught how to solve equations in one or two variables in school. Most complex situations are far more complex.
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@2psyop
There are some tribal people today (I think) who make music and don’t read or write and have not heard of notes on a page
Paul McCartney for example? He often says he had to write memorable music, not because it had to be memorable, but because he had to remember it (not being able to read or write music himself!)
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@jettyfat2323 you make a lot of great points. Sometimes the measurements are not ear pleasing. In a lot of situations.
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I've been at the hobby for a long time. I am, with a builder, building what we hope will be the finest sounding horn audio system for private listening room pleasure. To me, it's always been a A/Bing of things and yes the measurement world is critical to us. That said, on many occasions the particular part being tested looked great to the computer but a different part which did NOT test as accurately "sounded" to us a lot better. I wouldn't be caught dead without software BUT, we will always trust our ears first; period end stop. Also, I for one, if all I had were my hand held transistor radio from the early sixties, I'd be fine listening to Cousin Brucey and the like as music is the gift and I'd be just fine. How we hear our music should be entirely up to the listener. IMHO
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@toronto416 exactly. Some of these reviewers and guys that don’t actually try something in their systems are absolutely nuts to me. We actually had a power conditioner negatively affect our system but actually help another system in another room. It just depends. It actually happened at a show and the audiophile junkie did a whole infigo video on it.
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A few years ago I was researching a power conditioner and Google brought me to a detailed online review that was based on all sorts of measurements followed by a detailed explanation of why it could not possibly do what the manufacturer claimed it could do. I went through the review again because I though I had missed the part of the review that told you what effect it had on the sound of his audio system - but the reviewer skipped that seemingly critical aspect of reviewing that audio component. I was somewhat perplexed to say the least. That was my introduction to ASR.
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Measurements have their place, and I use them to a point. I also use reviews from reviewers I trust, input from a select group of posters here, looks of the speaker, listening at Audio shows (I attend at least 3 a year now), quality of the components used, published specs, listening in friends systems, talking to the manufacturer and/or designer......but in the end, I have to hear the speaker at some point, and that is the final arbiter.
I did buy the Clayton Shaw Caladan speakers sight unseen, when only one review was out, and they were many months away from production. So you can basically say I bought them solely on one review and Clayton's reputation, and the fact that I really liked the speakers he designed at Spatial Audio.
I will look at the impedance curve, on axis response (vertical and horizontal), off axis response (vertical and horizontal), spectral decay, etc. Poor measurements can be an indication of issues that will be present in a listening test.
The funny thing is that most speakers that sound amazing, may not have perfect measurements, but they will not have any major flaws. Some of my favorite speakers of all time (Thiels and vintage Reference Series Infinity) will fall below 2 ohms for short or even longer periods at some frequencies. In that case, I know they will need an amp with high current delivery.
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@mikhailark i have a troubling room but when my system is on in it. It’s amazing. I have taken my system to shows. Still sounds amazing
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@calvinj - totally. All I am saying, poorly measuring speaker is like EQ and may sound great with some recording and some rooms. Completely flat speaker sounds good in properly treated room. My setup is NOT flat intentionally, it is set up to MY taste. But I did measure it :-)
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But who's to say what "sounds good/bad"?
One can always use the argument that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" but we know it goes beyond that and there are standards (e.g., symmetry).
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Daniel von Recklinghausen, the renowned audio engineer at EAD and KLH is famous for this old chestnut: “If it measures good and sounds bad, — it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, — you've measured the wrong thing.” Hard to argue with the man's logic.
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@hasmarto this is the main point I make. I use measurements sparingly at best. It has to sound good or I don’t give a darn. I listen for hours when my ears are pleased. Measurements don’t matter if it’s not pleasing, enjoying or engaging.
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@2psyop exactly my biggest argument with the measurement group. Music is meant to be enjoyed not measured. Measurements can help for the environments they are in. But if something’s measures great but sounds like crap,to your ear. You will not be playing it.
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@mikhailark it depends on your equipment. The combination and the room that you have it in. But it has to please your ears in your listening environments. Yes there are basic things that it should do but ultimately. It can measure great and still sound like crap Use your ear in your room with your equipment.
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@cdc i research each piece of equipment I buy and each cable I use. I do work with Infigo Audio cables on the side and I actually set up a demo program where people could try before they buy. All systems and listening environments are different. No one system that most of us have are the same and even if they are they have different cables in them in different listening environments. I like to try before I buy. I also require black backgrounds, low noise floors and good soundstages in what I use. My preferences is to always have air around instruments and the treble must be airy and extended. My amp has a black background with air and space. It also uses all Class A power but biased at 35 watts. My Infigo Method 4 dac uses the ess Sabre 9038 dac chipset with multiple dac chips with miniature heat seats around each chip to limit the heat that limits distortion caused by the heat. It has been tested to make no noise even when turned to 140db. My speakers were designed a former designer for gamut. The German high speaker maker. So my Gato performs extremely well and punches way above the 14k price point. Like all of us do. When spending your money. Do your research but try to try all you can when you have the opportunity.
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Why, cables will greatly affect old type tube equipment where input or output impedance is reactive. Poorly designed power supplies will be sensitive to power cables.
Now, Ethernet cables do not matter. Seriously. :-)
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Basic engineering. When you are buying a car or a home, do you look for quality construction and actual measured performance. Or do you trust tales of "italian soul"? Same thing.
Poorly designer equipment will still sound great with some music in some room. Say, your room has resonances. Well, speaker that dips at those frequencies will sound great to you. Flat speaker will sound horrible. So there. Equipment that measures oddly is just and equalizer.
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Mapman is exactly right..., music would be all out of tune without measurements.
Take a string instrument as an example. On a string instrument, one octave is half the string length, and each subsequent octave is half that length. Same goes for an organ pipe.
Every note in the octave has an exacting length to produce that note in tune.
Get the measurements wrong, and everything is out of tune.
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Mapman. Do you mean that humans did not make music before they could measure it? That doesn’t make sense to me. There are some tribal people today (I think) who make music and don’t read or write and have not heard of notes on a page.
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Music would be all out of tune without measurements, eh? 😉
Case closed.
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Sometimes I wonder how the proponents of measurements live their lives. I’d imagine it must be quite dull if everything is reduced to numbers and data, without room for personal experience or enjoyment.
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I couldn’t agree more with your sentiment. While measurements have their place in audio as a tool to guide design and provide some objective insights, they can never fully encapsulate the actual listening experience. The relentless focus on measurements over at places like Audio Science Review completely misses the point for me. Audio gear isn’t just about technical perfection on paper, it’s about how it engages you emotionally and connects you to the music.
I’ve encountered far too many people who dismiss cables, components, or even entire systems based solely on what their meters tell them, without ever giving them a fair listen. To me, that’s not what being an audiophile is about. No measurement can replicate the nuances of live music or the way a particular setup resonates with you personally. Listening is what ultimately matters, and it’s frustrating when people ignore that in favor of a purely numbers-driven approach. Music is an art form, not a science experiment!
It’s a great thread, thank ya’ll!
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Measurements are critical
How else would I know if it's going to fit in my rack
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I hear what you’re saying. I find it depends on the site. One of the reasons I like this site is people can share their experiences and perspectives without ridicule for the most part. (I’ve real opened myself up with that comment lol). I like reviewers that balance personal listening impressions with measurements since I find both helpful.
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Physics is physics, and math is math. Those are usually not open to debate.
Generally, quality goes up in price, generally higher parts are used at higher prices.
Also there is a law of diminishing returns. Think we all know a $100 cable will sound better over a $5 cable. But how better is a $1000 cable over the $100 cable?
Music is much more then math and science. There is emotion involved. That is very subjective also hard to quantify. If you remove all the emotion from music it becomes sterile and lifeless. Specs only tell half the story, but at least give you some context.
Guess my point is, we can all use the scientific method, and measurements to create a "perfect" setup. But that "perfect" setup will most likely be cold and lifeless. No one really wants that, we want the emotion, that cannot be measured. So here we are.
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@calvinj
I agree with you. There are some things that I have taken a pass on, like expensive switches, because I tried them in my system and couldn’t hear a difference. But if someone else does hear a difference, it’s not for me to say it’s their imagination. By the same token, if someone chooses to drive their purchasing decisions entirely by measurements, it’s their money and their choice and that’s OK by me. I know there is such a thing as confirmation bias and it’s possible that I have been affected by that when I bought certain cables, etc. I’ll admit that I don’t do state-of-the-art, juried, double blind tests with every purchase I make because this is a hobby, not a colonoscopy. I’m a lawyer too, and know a little bit about arguments. Generally, when it gets to the ad hominem stage, it’s because that person has run out of logic.
I do take with a grain of salt those who say price doesn’t matter. There are certainly products that offer high value or poor value for the money. As a general rule, however, it’s very unlikely that a well thought out $10,000 system is going to perform as well as a well thought out $50,000 system, which is not to say that the less expensive system can’t still be highly enjoyable. As I’ve said before, I think the whole deal is to get the system that brings you the most joy for the resources that you are willing and able to devote to that purpose. Any time we find ourselves calling somebody names on a forum like this is probably a time that we should engage in a little self reflection
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No problem with what you are saying. But how do you go about making a buying decision?
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@texbychoice you hit the nail on the head. The snake oil comments are the ones that get me. They accuse you of promoting snake oil or you are not smart enough to even know snake oil. I have then had it devolve into personal attacks after that. Just nutty!
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@oddiofyl I definitely understand your points.
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@kerrybh i agree you get what you pay for. I think there is a group of folks that like to show how much smarter they are when they get great sound without spending a lot of money. Which I think should be encouraged. However, don’t crap on other folks that do spend by challenging their intellectual ability and decision making. By doing things like saying they have confirmation bias and they are not hearing what they are hearing. That’s the part that’s crazy to me.
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@2psyop you make great points. In terms of measurements and equipment matching. Sensible
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@kennyc love your spending above measurements analogy
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@joshua43214 you make a lot of great points. Also sometimes it’s how the equipment, power cables, interconnects and speaker cables interact with each other. It’s all so an issue with personal preferences. If the cables enhance your listening experience then you like them. There was a guy that was a nasa engineer that made great cables. His cables had a great soundstage but extended the treble and had a bump in the the lower midrange and in some systems it was great. In other systems not so much. But to each his own
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Beating the horse which has died so many times.
And yet there are 39 posts already. Whoops, make it 40.
I care about measurements only to the extent it helps with matching components. As someone mentioned the ohm rating on a speaker matched to the power/current of an amp or the phono cartridge to phono amp, etc. As far as other kinds of measurements … not at all interested. I listen to the sound and music, not measurements.
Well said.
I really appreciate the hard work that Alpha Audio has been doing. They are conducting the actual research that Amir at ASR only pretends to do. He is certainly not doing science, I am not sure he even knows what a scientist does.
@joshua43214
Agreed. If Amir was in fact a real engineer he sure doesn’t demonstrate any of his scientific education. At this point he has built such a large institution if he was even shown real facts disproving his hypotheses, or rather "beliefs", he would surely deny them to keep his bubble intact.
Sad all his followers cannot get past his useless measurements and false statistics.
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Beating the horse which has died so many times.
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Where's Jason Bourne when you need him :))
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I care about measurements only to the extent it helps with matching components. As someone mentioned the ohm rating on a speaker matched to the power/current of an amp or the phono cartridge to phono amp, etc. As far as other kinds of measurements … not at all interested. I listen to the sound and music, not measurements.
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I believe measurements can be useful in making buying decisions but they certainly don’t dictate what I do. Ive bought higher-end cables, etc. that the objectivist would scoff at. With that said, this is not a one-way street. I have read quite a few vicious personal attacks made against objectivists on this site. i’ve noticed that people get very emotional about this hobby and a great number of them are intolerant of views that differ from their own.
If you think that cables, don’t make a difference, buy inexpensive cables. On the other hand, I don’t understand why the objectivists create so much anger for those who believe that cables, etc. make a difference. After all, people like amir cant dictate how you spend your money. He has an opinion. No reason to take it personally.
I think you generally get what you pay for in audio just like with most products. Those who believe differently are certainly entitled to their point of view. Why should I be offended by that? Buy what makes you happy. No reason for agitation at others who have a different point of view. This is listening to recorded music, not a Titanic struggle of good versus evil.
with that said, a good cable debate can be pretty entertaining, even though there is no chance it will add to the sum total of our knowledge on the subject
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Susan Rogers book is excellent….if you are open minded to art and science…
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Like most things…there is very useful RESEARCH being done on the ear / brain… vs willy nilly measurements and silly 8 out of ten validity criteria….
The music induced goosebump hedonic treadmill can be intoxicating …my plan is to stay on it as long as possible….
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@calvinj
Some live by:
“It’s/they’re wrong until proven right” or
“It’s/I’m right until proven wrong”
both based on their individual judgment often clouded by a stubbornness most often based on fear of admitting to be wrong - their linked self-esteem takes a hit.
These types of people will always be around. Recognizing them would help deal with them “objectively” which is much better than taking it personally
I believe a large majority of naysayers, many who refuse try themselves, are being stubborn to “not” spending above measurements because they don’t want to face the truth of unaffordability. Sometimes envy morphs to anger/indignant
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At least with speakers the goal should be to better correlate measurements with what you hear and how specific room shapes, sizes and treatments influence both.
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Measurements matter. Two factors. You usually need to combine them with perceptive listening. Subjective feeds objective and vice versa.
But some measurements matter more than others in the hands of an experienced designer. One who measures and listens. My late friend Murray Zeligman modified cheap Grado cartridges in the 1970s. And he measured AND he listened. I once saw him look at a frequency curve , square wave and separation curve for a cartridge without knowing what it was. I still recall him saying he wanted the cartridge; he knew what it sounded like. It was an EPC 205 MK4 cartridge. We bought them. He was right. And it wasn't just luck. I saw him do similar things.
But this was particular cases. He never claimed he could do it all the time. But he sure was good some of the time.
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With only one caveat, I have always let my ears do the talking. That caveat is, does the amplifier has enough umph ( watts and current and stability ) to run the speakers I have at the time. Other than that, I don’t care.
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