Adding a sub. - can i start with one?

Two is better than one. One is better than none :)

Definitely one is fine to start with. Then when you can afford it get a second. You will be really surprised how much the second will improve the overall sound.

Two is better than one. One is better than none :)

 

The best answer for the day 😆👍

you can absolutely start with one and get great sound...I did and quite enjoyed it, added another a year later...REL recently put out an article about one good sub doing better than two lesser ones...,you just gotta set it up real good, which is harder with one, but quite possible...

I have a small room, 3.2 x 4.5 m, of odd shape, 2 smaller subwoofers solved my horrendous bass issues, one big one did not. For awkward rooms 2 subs can work wonders. I hear that big subs fill the room with bass, that was my experience, it totally ruined the soundstage.

I bought 1 sub figuring I would most likely need a second one.  It proved not to be the case

Love the first response. That said the only downside of having only one sub, especially if you want the sub to add audibly to the bass, is that the imaging may distract you as the low bass might always seem to be coming from wherever the sun is despite the bass player actually being on the left or right side, so be prepared for that. 

That said, what speakers do you have and which subs are you looking at?

I’ve got Audio Physic Tempo 25 speakers and looking at the REL S/510. I like the price point of the REL and it appears to be a very safe choice. My speakers have great imaging so will be curious how a single sub impacts that. I have lots of space so I can at least play around with placement. 

Two are much better than one and are easier to setup.

REL are great, but you might want to check out the SVS Pro series.. they have plenty of power and the app is actually really good.

All the best.

JD

I am very happy with one SVS 2000 sub, located in a cabinet, firing through a down-facing port, out of sight.  I agree that the app works well and is quite convenient.

+1 REL

Change the E to an S.

That is, the RSL speedwoofer will be back in stock soon.  Compact yet potent bass for $449.  Considering your budget, imagine how a DBA including SIX(!) of these would sound.  May well be very very tough for one sub to keep up with the effortless sound these would produce.  

Also, they have a wireless option.  And, this company has refused to play the inflation card, keeping their costs unchanged  for years.  A huge value.

That said the only downside of having only one sub, especially if you want the sub to add audibly to the bass, is that the imaging may distract you as the low bass might always seem to be coming from wherever the sun is despite the bass player actually being on the left or right side, so be prepared for that. 

Absolute BS. As long as you are using a subwoofer as a subwoofer and not a woofer, there will be no localization of bass instruments. None.

Starting with one is fine. However, the issues of damaging the soundscape from a large subwoofer are typically due to running the sub too loud, using too high a crossover frequency, or too shallow a crossover slope. Likewise, localizing sound from the sub indicates it is outputting significant energy above ~200Hz. Even a 50Hz lowpass crossover at 6dB/octave will only be down 12dB at 200Hz and quite audiblle

@daveinpa
Good call on REL S/510. Once you get the second one added, you be glad that you went with REL. And be sure to use high level connection with REL, other subwoofer manufacturers are trying to emulate this but it’s not even close in terms of seamless integration with your main speakers and not to mention outstanding build quality.

@ozzy62 Whoa whoa whoa. That’s the reason I was asking what speakers the OP has, and what subs they are considering. The Audio Physic Tempo 25 goes down to 32hz. The Rel 510 goes down to 20hz, but at -6. I believe it’s more like 25hz or greater at -3db. The OP mentions missing some oomph and giving it some “kick in the sound”. That is desire for a very audible range, and it will effect the soundstage perception. Also, subs do more than just add bass, especially if they go low enough below 20hz - they clean up the rest of the soundstage and bring clarity to the rest of the frequency response. And yes, it is possible that one sub in a corner will bring more of that clarity on that side… affecting the imaging. This is why many people prefer two subs or more, for an even response through the room. 

@daveinpa To build on my last post above, you will need to decide on what you want the sub to do. Given you have over 700sqft (that’s over 20’x30’!) and really high vaulted ceilings, if you’re wanting guttural impact, the Rel 510 may not do it. This is not to say Rel is bad, but with their frequency response cutoff, they are designed for smaller spaces than yours and will mostly add only audible bass on the low frequencies.

The one other big benefit of subs is as I mention above. With proper integration and the ability to generate lower moving waves, subs can improve phasing issues and bring openness and clarity through the frequency spectrum and improve imaging such that everything “snaps in place”. For that to happen in your room, I believe you either need a sub that can go lower and is still “fast”, or you need a swarm like mentioned above.

Again, this not to say that one sub is not bad, but to reach your goal, you may end up choosing a different sub or path. I learned this the hard way and had to upgrade my subs almost immediately.

I love Rel, I really do. But they have limitations in larger spaces until you get to the 812 or higher, or unless you get many of them. For less, I really like the SVS SB4000 or 16 Ultra sealed subs, and if you play your cards right, you could get a pair used for $3K shipped. The SB4000 goes down to 19Hz at +/-3db, and you can integrate the sub on the fly from a mobile app in your listening chair… everything from volume, phase, crossover frequency, and parametric EQ. I’ve found being able to adjust phase by degree from the listening chair to be quite valuable. And if you do buy from SVS, they have a money back satisfaction guarantee.

I have also heard great sound with the swarm described above, but you may need more than four for a room your size.

In full transparency, I am a dealer, but I just started out and do not carry any subs in my lineup, so what I say is purely from experience and in no way trying to sell my inventory.

+1 lalitk

@daveinpa

Further to @blisshifi post about S/510 may not do it. My room is 15’d X 30’w and I am using a pair of Carbon Limited (same power as S/510) and they are more than adequate with plenty of power to spare. Ofcourse my listening environment and preferences may differ from you (my room is also acoustically treated). In any case, I highly recommend getting the second sub as soon as you can, any one sub in your large room is sure to leave you craving for more :-)

I would also encourage you to consult with REL and take their recommendation under consideration. REL offers 60 days home trial and free shipping to you and on returns.

And with SVS or any other sub, keep the connectivity in mind, does your current preamp or Integrated allows two subs integration. Getting two SVS for the price of one REL may seem like a right financial call but not the right decision, based on my experience.

I still contend that any single subwoofer that is doing subwoofer duty will not "unbalance" the soundstage. Now if you choose to run the xover up to 150-200 hz, all bets are off. If the sub is crossed over low enough, even running the volume too high will not localize the sub, it will only negatively affect the tonal balance.

That said, I choose to use two. In my opinion it gives a more even bass response, twice the output, and two only have to work 1/2 as hard. But you can get good results with only one.

Hey @lalitk - curious, how high are your ceilings? Are they also high like the 18’ vaulted ones like the OP?

The REL carbon is a wonderful sub, and much improved over the 510 in terms of speed. It’s a nice move for your room and space. That said, it’s not only about output power, but also the ability to move sub-audible waves - sometimes room gain and reflections amplify this, and others do not. So seems the OP will have to test around.

Luckily the thread is not a “which sub should I get” or “Rel vs SVS”, and many of the sub companies offer a satisfaction guarantee.

If I had the funds, I’d get two Rel G1 Mk2 for my 18’x23’ room with 18’ high sloped ceiling (that is my listening space). With the 510, you also need more time as phase is managed by a pot in the back of the sub and not from the listening chair (the G1 has a remote for this). But unfortunately, time and money often factor into “the right decision”, despite it not resulting in the absolute best sound.

Started with one sub. A REL Carbon Special and yes, amazing first impressions. However, it only took a day to realize I could not fully integrate it for every type of music. I was constantly up from my seat to adjust gain. It was short lived experiment because I didn't listen to people here. I had to learn the hard way. I stepped up to the REL 212sx and it was a different story. I could get by with just one. I do not know if it is because it has four drivers, but I was able to quickly set it and never had to change it. I now have two because being type-a, it bothered me that I had bass information from one of two channels. It never "felt" complete or the "best" it could be. I added a second 212 and I will never go without. Magic, not just in tight, fast bass, but especially in midrange extension. The lesson here is that two are better than one, but the right one may be all you need. Happy hunting. 

@izjjzi I tried the 212SE in my room and it is very good. I had it set to about the lowest crossover frequency, and I could tell the soundstage was wider and cleaner on one side vs the other. I could have lived with it, but I would definitely benefit from two. I hear the 212SX is even better, and if I wanted to go through and spend the time integrating it, that would also be a contender.

@blisshifi The 212sx sounded amazing out of the box. The pair are actually difficult to adjust so not to be integrated. Took me a few tracks to integrate the first and a few tiny adjustments to get the pair in order. Placement was also far less a factor with only small changes needed to gain alone to satisfy. Highly recommended as for me, these are practically fire and forget subs.

Two subwoofers is recommended for a normal size listening room.  The room the OP described appears to be an entire building.  I wonder if he should be thinking of eventually having 3 or 4 subs for this space?

Absolute BS. As long as you are using a subwoofer as a subwoofer and not a woofer, there will be no localization of bass instruments. None.

@ozzy62 You may not be able to hear it with your sub in your room, but it’s not absolute BS. It depends a lot on the sub itself, a little on room positioning, and also I think how trained/gifted the ear is, but I’m not being condescending on that last point. When you only have one sub and that driver in action has overhang/over-excursion, then the desirable hidden room position is revealed. Then, if you position that particular sub in a way that gives it a FR peak due to room modal activity, you will accentuate the audible localization of the sub’s output.

Edit: perhaps enclosure build quality adds to it as well

Two subwoofers is recommended for a normal size listening room.  The room the OP described appears to be an entire building.  I wonder if he should be thinking of eventually having 3 or 4 subs for this space?

yes this was my reaction to op's info as well

If you can swing it, two would be better.  I would only consider buying REL's.  Their high-level connection is incredible.  My friend had a single SVS and the sound quality was not as good as my REL's.

Yes, but two is almost always better.  And IME not just for larger rooms.  My room is on the small side and I have no single space that is best.  100Hz null here, 60 Hz null there.  Two (or more) subs in different locations helps smooth out the overall response.

If you do start with one, choose wisely in the sense that the make/model you choose now should be new enough in the lineup that it will still be available if/when you go to add the second one.  Not that you can't integrate non-matching subs, but it's much easier to integrate two of the same.

In my limited experience, the best placement for a single sub is right in the middle between the speakers, not in one of the corners. I am aware that REL recommends the single sub to be placed in the corner of the room but I don’t follow. (I have the S/510)

Sure why not?

daveinpa-

As you can see, asking a seemingly simple question will never get a simple response back. Yes, no and maybe but...

A single sub properly setup will improve overall SQ-but it's subjective like EVERYTHING in audiophooland.

1:52 into the video. I experienced a couple of REL setups w/John Hunter. Even a single is quite convincing.

One advice I can give, based on a recent personal experience, is to not skimp on subwoofer quality -- buy the best you can afford. Case in point: I used to have a single T9/i sub and added a second T9i after a few months. It definitely made an improvement but not as pronounced as I was hoping for. I then had an opportunity to buy a REL S/510, so I sold both my T9i's to help fund the purchase. I can tell you that a single S/510 was better (in my system) than the pair of T9s. It brought out more punch, nuance, authority, and a level of finesse that the T9's simply couldn't match. I now have two S/510's and couldn't be happier. If I could have afforded it, I probably would have gone for 812's ... but I do want to retire at some point :)

I also have a big space.  I also have mains that do a pretty good job on their own but sometimes could use a little more oomph.  

One suggestion would be to add a 15" sub...sealed if its for music only.  Then run your mains full range and bring in your sub around 50hz give or take...and then just live with it for a month or so.

There are a lot of sub options.  Here is one that I can say really sounds good and gives you 60 days to decide if you like it...but as I said, there are many options that will sound great and get the job done....but with a big space, err on the side of a big sub no matter who you buy it from.

One more thing, if the sub is really going to be crossed 60hz or below, remember that there isn't a heck of a lot of tone being created down there...its mostly grunts and groans and booms and ambience so don't get hung up on spending a ton of money for better tone....there isn't much down there.  On the other hand, if you are going to cross at 100hz, that is a different story.

As for location, mine is 2' off to the side of the right speaker...but centering is more critical if the bass output on the mains is weak.

A single sub properly setup will improve overall SQ-but it’s subjective like EVERYTHING in audiophooland.

The improvement past one sub was not better in a "subjective"  sense. As if it was just my whimsy that I liked it better. No, it was better in an "objective" sense. It was better objectively in terms of (a) measurements (additional subs helped eliminate both peaks and troughs as measured) and from (b) an experienced listening standpoint (bass was clearer, more accurate, not boomy etc.)

Everything in audio may be particular (contingent on many factors) but it’s not all "subjective."

snapsc

One more thing, if the sub is really going to be crossed 60hz or below, remember that there isn’t a heck of a lot of tone being created down there...its mostly grunts and groans and booms and ambience . . .

Totally disagree. You just described poor bass management / reproduction.

I hear tone, timbre and PRaT - from classical to jazz to rock & definitely electronica.

daveinpa- as illustrated by hilde45's response to my comment  on JUST ONE sub. 

Yes,no and....the poster who is compelled to go beyond with their "absoluteness."

Sigh

It is a simple test.  Turn off your mains.  Turn on your sub and set the crossover at 50hz and then play a number of songs...not much tone.  Walk around the room...still not much tone.  I've done it with four different brands of subs and it always ends up the same.

But, when played with the mains, the additional grunt and the additional ambience provides the illusion of a change in tone...but when you listen to the sub alone, crossed low, not much tone there.

That has been my experience...no doubt, mileage may vary.

I am fortunate I don’t need subs in my room but if I did Rel would be the way I would go. Good luck ! 
 

@blisshifi 

Looking at your system it seems a few G1 Mk2 subs wouldn’t be too much of a stretch. Impressive indeed! I’ll bet it sounds amazing ! 
 

Happy listening !

+1 on the idea of a SWARM, especially in your space and for less $$ than two REL's. 

@ronboco Thanks for the compliments! I decided to start a hifi business on the side, which requires me to invest in gear for customers vs investing more into my own personal system. If the business takes off well, I'll reward myself with new subs. :)

It's obvious to me who here is speaking from subjective experience and who is enamored with an abstract idea

You can absolutely use one sub and have an improvement in sound, however...

"I feel I am missing some oomph and I find I am turning up the volume a lot."  Maybe you should be looking at other parts of your system also.  What kind of speakers, how sensitive, how much power are you giving them?  If your speakers aren't up to the task of filling your room with the sound level and dynamics you want, a subwoofer(s) won't fix that.

A single subwoofer if properly implemented will add more body to the music, but it's not going to add much volume, at least it shouldn't or you will be overpowering the rest of the music.

A single subwoofer may sound good in one spot in your room, and not so great in others because of peaks and nulls (too much or too little bass).  You will probably need to do some time doing the "subwoofer crawl" to make sure it sounds best at your listening position.  

Adding another sub, ideally having 4 subs, helps cancel out those peaks and nulls.

You don't have to have super expensive subs if you go the route of multiple subs.  Adding additional subs means that you can play each individual sub at lower output, giving them more headroom.  My music system started out being more focused on home theater. 

I have 4 subs, two have twin 15" drivers and 800 watt amps and two have 13.5" drivers with 1000 watt amps.  Two have analog volume controls which are at about 9 o'clock, the other two have digital volume controls and are at about -15 on the volume.  In other words, they are barely turned up, yet when the music calls for it, there's a visceral instantaneous reaction from the subs, while most of the time you might not even notice them. 

My point being that you don't have to spend a lot if you get multiples and you don't have to get super expensive subs either.  I'm not naming names, but Rel for example.  Wait, I did name names.  I've heard Rel subs and they work great, but so do many other subwoofers.  There's nothing special or unique about Rel subs that I have heard.  I'm sure fanboys will say they weren't set up "right" or I'm deaf, or whatever, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

If I were to make suggestions, I would say for sure go with sealed subs and if there's a brand that gives a good combination of price/performance/sound quality, to me, it's Rythmik.  I have and enjoy subs from SVS and Power Sound Audio also, but I like the servo technology in Rythmik subs.  If there's anything "special" about Rel subs, it's that they are sold by dealers, so it is easier to hear one, but that also means you're paying the dealer's markup compared to buying direct from the manufacturer like the other brands I mentioned.

a single sub works best, if you have a single listening position, and the flexibility to place the sub where it sonically needs to be...the more subs, the easier they are to place...

Probably the real question comes down to getting the ideal sub for your room  (the perfect choice of type and brand) and one that gives the sound and flexibility you want. I went with dual Rythmik subs because they are quick, easy to set up and dial in for two channel listening

I only have ever used one sub, when I even have used a sub.  It's been fine. 

But then I don't have a 700 ft w 18 foot cathedral ceiling room.  However, if your main speakers are big enough to handle such a room, then probably one good sub would do it, especially if you're already "almost" satisfied except for a bit of oomph.

OP, it seems that there are some answering the question whether one sub will be "enough" and others are answering what will be "ideal." Which are you after?

I’ve heard Rel subs and they work great, but so do many other subwoofers. There’s nothing special or unique about Rel subs that I have heard. I’m sure fanboys will say they weren’t set up "right" or I’m deaf, or whatever, but that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

I’ve nothing against other sub manufacturers such as SVS, Rythmik etc. I’ve been using a sub for the past 15 years or so and never really got a satisfactory result blending it to the main system. It went in and out of the system(s) throughout the years, used in Home Theater for few years and was kept in storage unused for several years.

Just lately I bit the bullet and switched to a REL S/510, and it’s one of the best decisions I’ve made although initially I was rather hesitant to consider another sub upgrade after all the years of disappointment. I’m glad I did and better late than never. The integration between the sub and main speakers is seamless which is the most important aspect in a music only system. Nothing sticks out like a sore thumb as the overall sound quality has noticeably improved, not night and day but surely appreciable. And this is only with one sub.

Coming back to the thread, to reiterate all that’s said here the consensus is one is generally considered to be better than none, and two is better than one. Or course, three or four is even better but one has to draw the line somewhere. It’s all about managing expectations. For me, one currently works very well in my system, and since I don’t have the space or funds for a second one, I’m already done.

I’ve been using a sub for the past 15 years or so and never really got a satisfactory result blending it to the main system.

What sub?  What controls did it have? 

I've heard this idea that only Rel subs can be easily "integrated" into a 2 channel system mentioned a lot.  Frankly, I don't get it.

Most modern subs include a lot of options for setting phase, crossover, Parametric EQ, and more.  Integrating a sub (or multiple subs) isn't rocket surgery.  Many now come with remote control apps so that you can adjust parameters in real time from your listening position.