Am I a hopeless audio snob?

@pilrem completely understand what you are saying. What's your budget?

I don’t think you are. I have owned a VPI Aries and now a contemporary Linn LP12 for thirty years. The VPI opened my eyes and shocked me at what was possible leaving the turntables of the 20th century behind. I asked my audio guy about some of these old brands (Technics in particular), what gives. He thought nostalgia. He has gotten some in trade (old and new) and has spent hours trying to get high quality sound out of them, and was unable to do so. I trust this guy completely, we have been friends for twenty years.

Look to, VPI, Clear Audio, Pro-jest, contemporary Linn. Have a serious look at the VPI Prime.

Kuzma

I too would look at the VPI very closely. I've had 2 or 3 of them and was quite satisfied with the sound & service

Technics 80s low tech? Might want to reconsider what late 70s and early 80s tech was to turntable development and Technics role in that. Not to mention what they do now.

There are tables I prefer in the sub $10k zone tho...

I totally agree with your feelings about visual impressions.

There are certain brands of speakers I deliberately avoid listening

to for fear I may like the sound. Super

Blingy looking brands of gear are also a turn off for me. 

If something strikes you as cheap looking, keep looking!

VPI, Clearaudio, SOTA, Origin…..

I really like Clearaudio, Ovation that is in my system now. 

TW ACUSTIC great tables.

I'm with you there. They look like a good DJ table but they just don't light my fuse. I don't know if they can play with the big boys or not but my TT has to be good sounding and aesthetically pleasing.

Simple reality, form factor matters. It just does. So not a snob, you just don’t get a “wow” from that setup. No worries. Buy what you like both aesthetically and sonically.

+++ VPI for performance, customer service, aesthetics (cutting edge looks but not ‘over the top’) and made in the U.S.A. I had a HW19MkIII for 20 trouble free years until upgrading to a Classic 3 SE 8 years ago and so far so good, no issues and not expecting any.

VPI is garbage. Any company who would make a turntable with a unipivot arm is in trouble. Any turntable company who would do so without antiskating makes garbage. After they realized their mistake they added it but it was too late, the damage was done. Their more expensive tables are Clearaudio copies and poor designs wasting money on filigree instead of performance.

You want to go with Sota, Basis, SME or Avid. Dohmann if you have the bucks.  

Looks matter.  I have the opposite opinion of Technics.  I have an SL 1200 MK2 (some of the 80's "garbage") and doubt I'll ever get rid of it, mostly because I love the "retro" look.  It's had some minor upgrades, but I think most people would be surprised to hear what it's capable of. 

I haven't heard the new models, but everything I've read about them suggests they are on another level entirely and well worth pursuing, at least in terms of performance.  We all have different likes, and if the aesthetic didn't work for me, it would be a non-starter as well, so that's perfectly understandable.

My main table is a Sota Sapphire, which I think will be a keeper.  I recently had an Acoustic Signature Wow XL and liked that a lot.  It's a rather smallish and compact but high mass table with great speed control.  The Wow XL is an older design, but I think they have tables in your price range.

Before that I had a VPI Classic 2 with a Classic 3 tonearm.  A more imposing table, also a high mass design.  I wasn't crazy about the unipivot.  VPI offers an inexpensive and easy to install dual-pivot option.  One of the things I liked most about the VPI is that it is designed to allow for a periphery ring clamp.  With so many new and used records having warps, that was a great feature.

You might get better suggestions by describing what you like and find appealing.

Technics may (or may not) have made a colossal error in designing the latest G series to resemble so closely their most popular ever but mundane looking SL 1200 series, but if you turn up your nose because of that, are you aware of the SP10R? And do you realize the stature of their best older efforts? Anyway, Technics will carry on without you, so no worries about being a snob. After all, you seem to have company.

mijostyn

5,655 posts

01-21-2022 6:52am

VPI is garbage. Any company who would make a turntable with a unipivot arm is in trouble. Any turntable company who would do so without antiskating makes garbage. After they realized their mistake they added it but it was too late, the damage was done. Their more expensive tables are Clearaudio copies and poor designs wasting money on filigree instead of performance.

You want to go with Sota, Basis, SME or Avid. Dohmann if you have the bucks. 

Yikes. SO much BS in this post.

I currently have a VPI Aries 3 with mini HRX feet, super platter, single flywheel motor, SDS, periphery ring. Running a Lyra Deloa. Running to ARC PH8 phono, REF6 pre, REF75SE and Vandersteen Quattro CT. 

The VPI is a wonderful table and the unipivot arm works great for me. However, the upgrade bug hit, so I am going with AMG. 

VPI needs isolation. 

@OP I hear where you are coming from and from some of the posts above you are not alone. One of the tings I consider when buying a piece of gear is potential resale value. I think a good portion of the gear from the large Japanese audio manufacturers just doesn’t have the cache a lot of buyers are looking for and if I am honest, I have to include myself in that group .

Thank you for your 1950s attitude toward Japanese made products. Perhaps you were sleeping the last 60 or so years.

Turntables are a real hard choice... I have owned several, including the Technics.

I have come to the conclusion that 90% of your choice should be if the aesthetics appeal to you...Most quality TT above $1k will most likely be pleasing sonically.

More importantly.. the cartridge and setup.

Dear @pilrem : No you are not snob but with low knowledge levels in the overall TT specific subject.

" I am plunking down some serious money on my next table..."

Money always helps but the main issue is to know exactly which audio item(s) we need that could fulfill our MUSIC/sound priorities through our room/system.

Buy a new TT is not easy even for the experienced audiophiles because there are several and different issues to take in count about not only the TT.

First we need a " serious " cartridge, a TT/plattform, good tonearm, good tonearm internal wire, good IC cable, good phono stage and many other " good....." things that inside the more important is our first hand experiences with live MUSIC events seated at near field position and to analog rig overall set up.

Now, if you already own those good " items " to sorrund the TT you are ready to buy it.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Get where you are coming from...

I want my TT to look like a Robert Palmer Girl.

DeKay

Got a chuckle😀

I have a Technics turntable in my office system that I purchased sometime around 1978 for I think $150 and I have a Clearaudio turntable in my main listening room that costed over $3K. 

Love the looks of both turntables and they both sound great paired up with their perspective systems.

Aesthetics definitely play an important part in the turntable you choose because if you don't like the looks it will affect your enjoyment. 

Following up on another post all parts of the system will affect the SQ but the turntable and cartridge play a major roll.

Win a lottery and buy the Tech Das Air Force 1 TT. A cool $100K! Beautiful design!

Most quality TT above $1k will most likely be pleasing sonically.

Not too sure about that. Around 1976 I bought a cartridge for my turntable that was 400 bucks, around a week's pay for me. That is $1960 in today's money...it sounded good but just average really and that's just the cartridge. 

This post might stray a bit from the subject at hand, but allow me to ramble.

I started my adult, finally-have-money-to-fuel-my-stereo-nuttiness with a Technics direct drive turntable bought from a high-pressure guy at a local Pacific Stereo. Not much later I started hanging with a dude who turned me on to the world of Hairy Person and G. Gordon Holt. Smitten by the mags, I bought a Denon 103 spherical tipped moving coil. I played it straight through the standard phono input of my NAD 3020 Integrated, with the volume knob at somewhere around Two O'clock. Yeah, it sounded great but it couldn't track its way out of the proverbial paper bag. Absolutely laughable inner groove distortion. The cure? A Shure V-15 with the brush thing-a-mo-bob hanging off the end. Tracking was glorious but the tone didn't quite cut it.

Meanwhile, my status in the audiophile club was severely compromised by my direct-drive turntables (which was now a Denon), so I blew the bucks on a SOTA Sapphire with an okay-for-now tonearm (what was that brand again? A something MMT?).

I have to say, that the SOTA-based system provided a whole new world in happy listening. By the same token, though, the tonearm's bearing always seemed to be loose, so I traded it in on an Alphason. Yes indeedy, that Alphason improved fidelity all-round. It now supports a Lyra Delos, but I think the Delos might be near the end of its service life. Orchestral string tone is dirty once again. Or is the culprit my rescued-from-the-closet Moon step-up device which replaced my oh-did-I-love-that-thing Mytek Brooklyn Bridge...which recently suffered a particularly ugly death?

I get where you're coming from. Aesthetics in my audio system was never a priority for me as sound quality was always my goal. But when I decided to upgrade my analog rig, a 1976 Linn, I wanted something that looked like an upgrade as well. I went with an Avid Acutus Reference turntable with SME V arm. There may be better units out there but I never tire of its looks and it sounds great to me.

Yes, you're an audio snob. In my opinion, because you chose to make audio decisions based on looks and perceptions...rathervthan your ears.

Technics turntables are very good especially the 1200G and SP10R. Also the older generation SP10mk2 and SP10mk3.

It was the British HiFi press that out the spin on belt drive vs direct and idler drives that was wrongly favoring belt drives and made vinyl playback into a Linn LP12 world.

Part of an audio manufacturer's marketing plan is not only to make a superior product but also to project an aesthetic appeal.  That is a valid consideration in making a purchase.   Personally, I hate  the look  of B & W speakers (sorry, Bowers & Wilkins). Fat stubby monsters regardless of the quality of their sound.  If I hadn't heard about the quality of the relatively expensive Harbeth speakers, I would have regarded them as ugly cheap boxes right out of the 1970's (I'd never have them in my house).   You certainly need to pay attention to the sound quality of equipment as #1 but almost equally important is that you are happy with them aesthetically.  There is a lot of high quality, good looking turntables out there so keep looking  - you'll know when its right.   So according to ddriveman, I'm also an audio snob and love it!

*L*  No, you're just hopeless...;)

The 'snob' kicks in when you've declared that you've 'found your way', and all others are either demented or doomed to ignorance in ignoring your superior ears and intellect....

Anyway, enjoy where you go and with what...

@dekay , OK, a R. Palmer girl.....white as a ghost (standard issue kinda sheet ghost) in black and 'vapping' on the instruments....

They're a bit 'older' now.... ;)

@edcyn MMT = Sumiko = Made for them by Jelco. The SOTA with a modern arm and a refresh will serve well… enjoy the music. I still have a 3020.. in the garage…fun

To the OP, more than a few guys at the Vandy owners forum ( Vandy site ) with different tables and Quattro, some AMG, Brinkman, SOTA, VPI, Clearaudio, etc….

Jim

Agree with Kuzma, Reed and Thales. Look at these.

“VPI is garbage.”

That explains everything. When I get home, in the trash they go….

Buy what you like. At a certain point, the level of performance will only be revealed in direct comparisons. The Technics is still a player- I have an SP-10 that I bought new in 1973 or thereabouts, and it is performing yeoman's duty in a vintage system after a light upgrade from Bill Thalmann. That will soon be 50 years- no it is not my main table, but it is in use in a very high grade vintage system. 

There are lots of interesting turntables out there, including some that have been around a long time. The unfortunate thing is that you can't meaningfully compare much at a dealers and listening to one offs in people's homes won't tell you much, because the rest of the system is an unknown. 

I don't churn equipment, but buy to keep and realize an advantage in not spending the same money more than once. Thus, I can concentrate on cartridges and records--the latter of most interest. 

There are some seriously good record players out there and I am not sure I'd buy new. Arm- that would involve more moving parts. Cartridge- I'm suspicious of "used" cartridges, though I have had some rebuilds that were great for the money. I don't take shortcuts here either, though. 

I'd be interested to know of recent Platine Verdier ownership experience. It seems a bargain, given the design and price, and has been around forever. Arm is a different matter, as is cartridge. 

I own the Technics MK7, yes not the high buck G or GR, but for $999 (final price about $630 after discounts/points, cash back, etc) I think it is a great looking table. I'm drawn to it's strobe and the fact I can easily play 78 records. I've outfitted mine with a Shure M97xe cartridge with the stabilizer brush ( how 80's is that?), as well as KAB USA glass platter/thin technics rubber Matt combo, isonoe feet, and a Nordost power chord and Atlas phono cables. So basically, I most likely spent what the turntable costs in some upgrades....I love it. Also installed an auto lift for end of side. 

My other tables include a Music Hall walnut MMF-7.3 with Ortofon 2M Bronze, a Pro-Ject The Classic SB in Rosewood with Goldring Eroica LX MC cartridge and step up transformer, and my newest table, the Avid Ingenium. I like them all and will not get rid of any of them. I almost forgot, I also have the Thorens TD 240-2 fully automatic belt drive bright wood finish with Ortofon OM10 cartridge pre-installed with a Super OM waiting in the wings. What a wonderful turntable it is. You gotta have at least one fully Auto in the stable...JMO. 

@secretguy , you asked for it and I will double down. VPI makes inferior equipment. If you own one I suggest you get rid of it ASAP before your cartridge explodes. I am not a big Technics fan but I would take one eons before a VPI. Even the Linn is far superior. How's that for BS? I have a lot more if you'd like.

Well, if looks is what does it for you, try this one:

It does not actually work, but it sure is pretty!

I have to laugh at TT prices today. I sold lots of Linn-Sondek’s (REALLY bouncy) back in the day for about $175.00. Arms were extra; SME was popular--$135.00 as I remember.

Cheers!

Richop, I am lying in bed this morning, thinking for some reason of this ridiculous thread, and the Transcriptors Reference came to my mind too. There never was a cooler looking TT. For looks alone it can’t be beat. With the OEM Transcriptors tonearm, it can’t play records very well but who cares? I had a brief love affair with it. With a modern tonearm it might rise to the level of average performance.

The  Reference version had a huge plexiglass dust cover hinged at the rear, which should make Mijostyn happy.

My OP was meant in humor.

I must admit, the more I look at Technics TTs the more I like. Perhaps @rauliruegas can be my guide? However, I still don’t understand the meaning of "enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS." And why the yelling?

My new TT has been delivered to my dealer; it’s going to be an anxious few days before I can pick it up. I have set up many carts in my day - and I have invested in the equipment to do so. However, my dealer is a master at this so I will defer to his expertise and ear.

Until then, time to crank up the close-n-play!

What happened was you noted an objection to the appearance of the Technics G series turntables, without actually naming them, and this elicited a bevy of responses from the belt drive crowd who are typically activated when anyone mentions the possibility for denigrating a direct drive turntable like all those made by Technics. So your thread devolved into a belt drive fest. That group was further divided by Mijostyn who could not help mentioning his particular distaste for VPI. His distaste for VPI then elicited responses from a bevy of VPI lovers. And the beat goes on. I would advise you to spend a lot of time listening to various types of turntables including both direct drive and belt drive types. They do have their distinctive characteristics if you are an experienced listener. If you are not an experienced listener then you may hear no important difference between the two types. In fact, the best of both sound closest to each other. Then it depends how much you want to spend. As an aside, the technics G series turntables top out at around $4000, which you mentioned, but there are less expensive versions that can be had for far less money.

But it seems you made a purchase based on the advice of your dealer. What?

I hate this "golden toilet look" audio design.

For me it is like trade off between "golden toilet look" vs sound quality.

Turntable should look like turntable, speakers like boxes and so on.

@lewm - I would consider myself an exceptionally experienced listener. I have built my system piece by piece over the past 30 years and have journeyed through B&W, Musical Fidelity (A3cr is still a favorite), BAT, Rotel, Zu (Zu DL103 carts are a fav) Kimber, Nordost, Music hall, and the list goes on... The point I am making is that the journey is a big part of the joy of this hobby. Many steps along the way.

My system now is easily $100k plus, Dedicated listening room, Dedicated circuits. If I would have skipped these steps, I don’t think that my ear and appreciation would be developed to the point I would like to think they are. 

I have always loved the sound of AMG turntables. AMG was a machine shop in Bavaria that manufactured components for high end tables from Brinkman etc. They were owned by a father and son. Years ago, Garth with Musical Surroundings entered into an agreement with AMG to build and market their own products. Musical Surroundings had distribution for the Americas.

The father died and the son wanted to take things in a different direction, so he ended the agreement with Musical Surroundings. I was alerted of this and was able to secure one of the remaining AMG rigs that Musical Surroundings had. Since they no longer have the line, I was able to negotiate a great deal. Not anything like 50% off but a good deal. I had to jump at it.

Next, I am buying the custom HRS platform for AMG. A/B listening revealed that this is a worthy move.

AMG also make fast Mercedes Benz’s.

Your choice, like my choices, is the natural result of your past audio experience. Thus it’s very personal. I’m glad you didn’t just follow a dealer’s advice blindly, as one might have inferred. Congratulations.

so I don’t get why you started a thread based on a swipe at Technics and Japanese products in general without at least also mentioning your extensive prior experience and knowledge and that you probably never had any interest in a Technics TT. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

I was in the same situation 2 yrs ago, I ask my friend what TT he can recommend, He said go VPI , clear audio, I look into it, I end up buying SME 10, I am super happy with this choice, A year later I saw uncle Kevin talking about Vpi Prime scout with blem video,  I purchased VPI tt with blem for my second system,  white color from Uncle Kevin. Happy as well.Audio is a choice choose what makes you happy, as long as there is budget.

I've got a $4000 Technics turntable, and it is great! It may look like a 'DJ turntable', but underneath the hood, it most certainly is not. And you'd need to be a pretty strong DJ to haul this thing around! 

Audio snob? I think not. If I were in a position to upgrade my turntable I'd go with an AMG. In the mean time I'm sticking with old Denon and Pioneer tables.

I think your fine and you should get whatever makes you happy. Looks are certainly an issue, so it’s your money, you need to be happy with all aspects of your purchase. 

"" so I don’t get why you started a thread based on a swipe at Technics and Japanese products in general without at least also mentioning your extensive prior experience and knowledge...""

lewm+1

@pilrem 

R.