OP: I have some tube equipment in my signal chain, but I can’t honestly say why.
I honestly believe that you don’t know why. It’s quite obvious.
Are Tubes the "DEI" of the Audio World?
Given the advanced state of SS equipment, have tubes become the DEI of the audio world? Can we really justify the cost, maintenance, inconvenience, heat etc. of tube equipment, when SS equipment is now equal, if not superior to tube gear? Don't get me wrong, I have some tube equipment in my signal chain, but I can't honestly say why. None of the tube equipment I've owned has given me a noticeable improvement in sound. Has the time come to accept the fact that SS equipment is the future of this pursuit, and tubes are but a piece of history we want to cling to, for reasons that can't really be justified?
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FWIW, there is not much wrong with SS equipment except for one thing, you can choose the tone of a tube unit - it's sound will depend on the effort you are willing to expend to get what you want by exploring the tubes it uses. Unfortunately, when you have a SS unit, its simply plug and play. You don't like it, buy something different. IMHO tube equipment more meets the needs of a hobbyist audiophile. |
@steakster I think you know exactly what I was saying. No need to be snarky. |
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We each hear differently, and value / prioritize differently for what we do hear. I’m pretty firmly in the tube camp, but also like some solid state here and there. I’m also a subjective listener; don’t care about what is supposedly "the truth" or which measures best (it’s usually SS, often by a lot). If you don't find a compelling reason to go tubes based on its sound, then it's pretty clear SS is the better choice! And absolutely nothing about this has anything to do with politics. |
Equality never existed in this hobby, diversity, big yes, that's what makes tubes so interesting, inclusion, another big yes, many of us will always include tubes in our setups. And oh yeah, what's so wrong with the literal meaning of DEI as it applies to humans? Political types on both sides cynical crowd that diminishes humanity. |
It's an odd analogy but I'll play on different terms. I've been using tubes exclusively for the analog side since the early '70s. I currently have two systems running- one, using Avantgardes with Lamm ML2 amps, a Veloce line stage and an Allnic h3000 phono stage. The Lamms make music like virtually no other amp I've heard and I doubt I will dispose of them during my lifetime. I get the tubes from Lamm; the only tube I roll is the 12ax7 and the old Tele ribbed plate is my preference- it adds a little bite to what otherwise might be too silken a sound. The Veloce is extremely picky about the tubes- 6H30s, which call for vintage Reflectors. The new production simply doesn't sound the same. I've owned other line stages and preamps- always tube except for some years when I was running a Lamm L2- which has a solid state audio path but is tube rectified. The Allnic seems to be very happy using the tubes supplied by the mfr, but the rectifier gets rolled and it changes the voicing of the entire system. My preference has been a GEC cup base U-52, though I've tried other grail tubes, including the metal base Mullard (actually a Phillips-Miniwatt). The vintage system replicates what I was running in 1975, using some of the very components I have owned since then, which were sympathetically restored; I use GEC KT-66s. In fact, all the tubes in both systems are NIB, NOS, not pulls. The system is built around a pair of Quad Loudspeakers I've owned since 1974. So, I've gone to some trouble not only to utilize tubes but to source what I believe are the best sounding of their type for my ears and gear. Why? To my ears, I get a midrange purity in both systems that is virtually unmatched. The larger system can play bigger, is more dynamic and less bandwidth constricted but both can be played at reasonable SPLs and give the listener an immediacy that is eerie; neither sounds like a "reproduction" system with a good recording. I've heard many big systems over the years, including large solid state/dynamic driver systems that are quite impressive. But for me, the gear and particular tubes I've chosen suit my listening preferences. It's that simple. "Better"--I have no idea. I stopped fussing over that a while ago. More of a PITA? Perhaps. Sourcing true new old stock tubes is increasingly difficult and costly but can be done. |
My experience and opinions differ from yours, at least regarding tubes and SS. Each has their strengths. After having tried numerous very well regarded affordable SS amps (Hafler, NYAL, Discrete Technology), and several lesser receivers and integrated amps, it wasn’t until I tried a refreshed Dyna 70 that I experienced the palpable holographic midrange that really keeps my attention. The Dyna didn’t have the deep bass extension and control, but tubes have a wonderful harmonic structure through the critical music range that I haven’t been able to duplicate with SS. I can buy that midrange sound with good American iron for around $1500. I’ll get around 3 years from a set of $180 output tubes, and likely more than 10 years for preamp and driver tubes, and I check the bias a few times a year. I can roll different tube types and brands to tailor the sound I want. I can also add a cheap SS amp and active crossover very inexpensively to bi-amp my woofers, and keep the vocals amplified by the tubes to get the best of both worlds. It’s hard for me to imagine an affordable SS amp that gets that sound, but perhaps "tube-like" SS finally exists...I just haven’t heard them in my system. In systems other than mine, the best amps I’ve heard were tube amps from Convergent. |
My main system is all tube. Due to that fact I tend not to use it unless I have a few hours or more to enjoy it... Makes no sense to fire it up for short periods. My second system is my daily driver. It really sounds great, especially since changing out speakers. That system is solid state. Reliable, and hassle free. I'm listening right now and it sounds great , really good... I still prefer my main rig, but could easily live with this system if I had to.
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Transistors have come a long way, no doubt of that. There is a number of companies making great solid state equipment. It costs a fortune, though, for most of us. I bought my VAC Avatar SE used for $3500, replaced all tubes - another $1500. One might be able to find a solid state integrated for $5k, used, I suppose, that would sound no worse overall, with the right speakers, but it would not be easy. In fact, I was considering used Accuphase Class A integrated, but no, VAC sounds more natural to me. |
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What "tube equipment" have you owned?
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@jl35 I also have the BAT REX 3 line stage in my system. It replaced the Hegel P30. I can't honestly say I hear much difference between the two but the P30 is sold, and the REX 3 will likely be my last preamp. Even though I purchased it at a very good price, the beating you take on selling equipment makes it a keeper. |
To @bigtwin, I received your direct message. I’m unable to reply on Agon as I refuse to share my Cc and for security reasons. I see no issues with the PL / BaT / TRX tube amps listed. Possibly the speakers -or- something else upstream holding you back from hearing differences between the Hegel and tube amps, comparatively. Your BAT preamp and REX3 amps alone should be plenty to show a nice difference of what good tube vs good SS sounds like. Nice tube gear btw.
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@decooney Over the years I've had a pair of GoldenEar Triton Reference, Acoustic Zen Crescendo Mark ll, maybe the nicest cabinet work I've seen, and a pair of Focal Sopra 2. Having always loved the sound of Electrostatics, I've settled on a pair of SoundLab Majestic 745s. I'm pretty much finished chasing the dragon on the equipment front. Building my final dedicated room now and then....... Cheers. |
DEI (excluding the alphabet soup) is about ‘attempting’ to correct for economic disparities from the past that still exist today as implicit bias (there’s another term for it, but I won’t go into it here). SS can be viewed as the same. There was a dominant tech that took a while for economics, technical sophistication and implementation to catch up (or surpass for some of us).
IMO, it takes a more expensive SS Amp to equal or better a ‘good’ Tube Amp. An inexpensive SS Amp sounds like crap (you pick the dollar figure), where as most tube Amps have a somewhat pleasant sound and it’s only when you step up in price that you begin to hear the differences. At some point Tubes cease to sound better, they just sound colored (ooops! lol). |
DEI was never about attempting to correct for economic disparities, it's about equalizing opportunity. It doesn't give minorities money, and it doesn't force banks to lend more money to disqualified families, it forces us to think clearly about how we evaluate our peers and how much of that is gender, age and race based. My fellow citizens repeatedly tell me (without prompting) who looks like a leader or criminal and who looks like they are qualified, or who looks like they worked for their money vs. got it because of their race. |
STOP IT!!!! I was making a joke about people needing a reason to buy tube equipment as IMHO, SS makes way more sense. I had no idea so many members would not be able to see that. @erik_squires I appreciate your explanation of DEI. I just didn't think it would need to come up. My apologies to all the thin skin members who were offended, of felt the need to answer aggressively. As for @carlsbad2 Apparently you couldn't pass. You posted a response. Slow day? No need to respond. 😆 |
Yes it’s a known fact Many choose a Nice SS amplifier and Vacuum tube preamp if of very good quality tubes give more air around the instruments ,soundstage size and depth ,but quality tubes are essential also. I recently bought a ALinear Tube Audio Micro Z-OTL preamplifier that has many attributes modt Vacuum tubes Donot have David Bearning original Z-OTL design plus the latest gen 2 is a further upgrade the Rays 6SN7 tubes are very good , and the medical grade 12AU7 Telefunken tubes are not cheap but complement the other tubes nicely ,the AQ Tornado Sourse power cord I find is a excellent power cord for this to define it’s character and detail. |
Got it. Maybe something else going on there in your SS vs Tube amp comparisons, perhaps, upstream, room, something else possibly happening not showing a difference for you would be my first guess. TOOOB Amps:
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So last year, I purchased a PS Audio BHK preamp and a pair of BHK 300 mono blocks. One of the reasons I chose them was because both the preamp and the amps have tubes in their input sections. After trying six pairs of tubes (from different manufacturers). I settled on some NOS, RCA Cleartops for the preamp and I am still using the Tung-Sol tubes that come from the factory in the amps. I gave each set of tubes at least two weeks before changing to the next set and I really enjoyed hearing the different sounds produced by each of the companies. |
@bigtwin IMO you get more of the classic "tube sound" from a tube power amp than preamp. And of the preamp you do have - a BAT Rex, which IIRC still uses 6H30 tubes - I love that tube, and many thanks to Viktor of BAT for introducing it to us! But it's not a classical tubey sound. And it's not quite solid state sounding, either. It's something with sonic attributes of both, and not quite either. |
@mulveling I wish I could hear the difference tubes make. But I can't. I had the REX 3 pre and REX 3 mono blocks in my system for just under two months. They came to me as a demo unit so break in was not an issue. I had them set up beside my Hegel H30s, with two sets of identical speaker cables. I was able to go back and forth between the two sets of amps in seconds. I really wanted to keep the REX amps but I just couldn't justify the expense. Selling the Hegels and keeping the REX was a $30,000 CDN net cost. During those two months of listening, I just couldn't discern any real difference. Nor could my wife, or a few others who came to listen. To hear tube lovers talk about the magic, the difference in sound should have been undeniable. But for me, it just wasn't. Maybe the Hegel H30 is just as a wonderful amp? I like to think so. Cheers. |
@bigtwin For me, I preceive the classic "midrange romance" and fullness of tubes, and also its slightly soft / bloomy bass - versus SS sounding generally more dry, but with great bass slam and definition. And power's a lot cheaper with SS! I've driven myself crazy with comparisons in the past, hoping to get it all "at once". And in the end I've chosen to stick with tubes and try to mitigate the bass "issue" with more power (more expense!). To be honest I like a "little" bit of bloom there, just not too much and definitely not "soft" bass or an amp that will start to collapse at higher playback levels. |
@mulveling I miss the look. Not so much the heat 🤣
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@bigtwin Beatutiful! |
