Hello all, first post / longtime lurker on here. I have really appreciated all I've learned from following threads on here -- much appreciated.
I've had three speakers in my house for a few years, and have learned that transient response is the quality I value most. I'm researching upgrade options and would appreciate recommendations on brands.
Currently I have KLH Model 3s, JBL 4305Ps, and JBL Studio 590s. The sealed KLHs are far superior in transient response / speed / attack. The 4305Ps are pretty good (I'm assuming because they're active) and the 590s, while they do a lot of things well, are relative laggards.
I am assuming that on average a sealed design at any given price point will outperform a ported speaker in this area of performance, but I'm sure there are important exceptions.
I'm also curious if more expensive ported horn speakers (Klipsch heritage line, or the JBL 4349 for example) may deliver equal or better in transient response compared to a lower cost sealed speaker because they're using better drivers, crossovers, etc.
From a measurements perspective, improved driver impulse response could be equated (to some degree, one component) to improved transients.
This translates to small drivers playing respective frequency band, and increased number of drivers to achieve sound power.
Drivers themselves can’t be too compliant (signal reversal, phase shift ) or too stiff (resonances, stored energy, waterfall). Many poor drivers i’ve tested that go into some "high end" speakers don’t cut it, it’s one thing or the other.
A poor crossover design will introduce big electrical phase shifts and so on (nullifying benefits accrued from the above mentioned).
It appears that some big horn speakers mentioned on this thread have defied all physics, engg design, material science, etc and achieved unmatchable transients, as per the sales crew. No, they did not, but, whatever helps to sell your stuff.
What you sell is apparently always the best at everything, no exceptions indeed! (They don’t just win some/lose some as the engineers would admit, but, they just excel at everything according to the sales crew....NOT)
The interesting thing about horn systems is that they sound particularly good at lower volume levels and tend to work well in small rooms
Yes in my old house I used the Studio 590s practically as near field (4 ft away) and they worked great with these massive speakers the size of coffins. Horns do some special things.
For their relatively low price I could take the risk, but for the price points we're talking about I'm just worried I don't have enough of a room for them.
It appears that some big horn speakers mentioned on this thread have defied all physics, engg design, material science, etc and achieved unmatchable transients, as per the sales crew. No, they did not, but, whatever helps to sell your stuff.
Maybe you are blowing things a bit out of proportion here. Who claims that, and are you referring to below quoted paragraph by poster larryi?
A dealer in the Washington DC area, Deja Vu Audio, builds custom speakers using modern and vintage components. These can be tailored to one's specific taste, which is a BIG advantage of a custom build. They employ vintage midrange horns and compression drivers because there is very little out there that can match these old drivers except VERY expensive drivers from the like of G.I.P., ALE, Cogent and Goto. These systems truly deliver excellent dynamics while retaining a sweet, natural and relaxed sound; the weight and sense of large scale is particularly good when very large format horns are employed (some of these horns are monsters).
There's no hyperbole in above text by Larry (not by dealers), but rather what appears to be honest reporting of impressions - again, if that's what's really the source of your gripes.
Have you heard very large all-horn systems? And no, a pair of JBL Everest DD67000's (just a thought-up example) aren't big by that measure, and they're also only horn-loaded from ~700Hz on up. The Klipsch K-horns are fully horn-loaded, but severely undersized as such.
All-horn systems that plays down into in the 25-30Hz region, that are non-truncated down low and controls directivity in their entire range on up on the other hand are very large, and that's just with 1/4 wave bass horns (full-wave bass horns, as you know, are impractical for most for obvious reasons). What they nonetheless do compared to their mostly undersized and hybrid brethren - and this is important - is actually (and just barely) complying with physics, not defying them, and therein lies a big difference.
If anything it appears speakers of such size defies the acceptance in the minds of those audiophiles who've grown accustomed to their neatly small box speakers, and who would still have their cake and eat it too - I guess not least aided by those dealers who've sold them these speakers and filled them with marketing BS in the process.
As to the relevance of transient abilities in a speaker and all that implies, it seems that area has now become a bit washed out, subjective in nature and with brands rather than general physics and design as the prevalent factor. That being said, if we're speaking leading edge cleanliness/transient prowess in most of the audible frequency spectrum, and effortless at that at most any desired SPL (i.e.: easy of reproduction is not trivial here), large size and efficiency in addition to proper design/technology - from my chair - is inescapable.
Even if you get to audition candidates, if you don’t hear them in your own room, you still have that uncertainty. It would be hard to find dealers who have the speakers you are interested in and are will to loan them out. I see how the Mofi speakers are less of a risk at the much lower price and a chance to hear them at the dealer. I hope that works out. It would be an even better audition if you get to hear the speakers with your amp; perhaps the dealer will allow this. The amp-speaker interaction is particularly important to the sound.
Even if you get to audition candidates, if you don’t hear them in your own room, you still have that uncertainty.
Agree 100% and don’t view in-showroom auditions as the final step. I haven’t bought the amp that will drive them yet -- I wanted to narrow down to a few models and then research amp options that appear will be the best match to my speaker candidates (with a bias toward wanting to buy a Parasound Hint 6 if it appears it will be a good match).
A good example are the ATC SCM40s, which based on feedback on various forums and reviews will require a bigger investment in amps compared to say the Spendor 7.2. The Spendor also, based on better sensitivity, will probably play better at low volumes while the ATC appears to need to get a little loud to open up (true of my KLH 3s as well). I don’t play music particularly loud so this is something I need to consider, as well as the Spendor probably being more flexible with amp choice.
I agree the Mofis may be a safer choice that enables some additional learning/experience to make a more informed choice at higher price points down the road.
Not the only choice, but ATC speakers allow you to 'see' inside the music with excellent detail, fast response to instrument/vocal attack in a very balanced way (when driven properly). Most other transducers seem slow and muddled.
One of the challenges with ATC is properly pairing their sealed cabinets and rather large magnets with stable current to control the drivers. Sealed cabinet designs usually present a more difficult load.
I've owned/own four different pairs of ATC speakers. Two active, two passive: ATC 40A, 50A. ATC 7, 20. Even the small ATC 7 at 7 liters needs my Sugden A21SE class A at 33 wpc to properly push them around. The ATC 20 needs the 125 wpc Luxman 509X to control massive magnets.
Just saying that some may under power (translation, not enough stable current) sealed cabinet speakers producing anemic non-involving results. Some will blame the transducer, that is not where the problem lay.
Active is where I live for reference, but the passives are also quite good.
@celtic66 thank you this really helps tell me that I'm likely not quite ready for ATCs. Like the ATCs, the Spendor D7.2s are described as achieving the qualities I'm looking for most, and will be more flexible with amp matching.
The best transient response I've ever heard, are ion plasma tweeters.
It's hard to beat drivers with zero mass.
Lansche and AvantGarde Acoustics both have very impressive transient response behavior.
Next in line would probably be ribbons and electrostatic.
Diaphragm mass does have a strong correlation to treble quality and perceived “transient response” IME, even among tweeters made of the same material from the same manufacturer.
Open baffle speakers give you what a panel speaker can or electrostatic speakers but with full dynamics and bottom-end impact. Transparent to the source and quality of the music. You have the best of both worlds.
Years ago I tried to measure transient response to come up with an understanding of why I thought horns sounded better than direct radiators. In nearfield measurements I was shocked to see that cheap little bookshelf speakers that only sounded OK to me were actually faster and cleaner in the transients than my beloved horns, which were a bit messy because of ringing. I was looking for extremely high speed effects at the start and stop of notes at all frequencies, and what I learned is that my perception is far less effected by those than longer term effects of room reflections. My conclusion was that my perception of dynamics and speed from the horns involved time periods of 5 to 10 milliseconds or more - issues that arise from room reflections, not sub 1/10th millisecond issues that arise from the mass of the diaphragm, or slew times of amplifiers, or differences in arrival time between drivers. The improved direct to reflected ratio from the horns higher directivity, I concluded, was what was giving me the impression of horns being faster. I deduced this was also somewhat true for electrostatics and other dipole designs that tend to cancel along their sides, so the direct to reflected energy is higher at the listening position. I’m still not certain of this, because I have found ways to make horns sound really tame and seemingly lacking in dynamics, so a balance of frequency response is also important. Insufficient energy in the midrange, and other frequency response imbalances also seem to kill my impression of impact and speed. So a well balanced direct radiator may in some ways seem to hit harder.
Also the ability to turn up the volume without apparent strain on the system seems quite important.
This may not be true for everybody, so I’m not saying this is THE answer, but it’s an answer that at least partially explains what some of us our hearing that correlates to our perception of quick dynamics. I have heard plasma tweeters on various occasions, and they sounded good to me. But I’ve also heard little 3/4" doped silk dome tweeters sound every bit as fast. It always amazes me that a little soft piece of silk with rubbery goo on it can sound like a high pitched metal bell when asked to.
But I’ve also heard little 3/4" doped silk dome tweeters sound every bit as fast. It always amazes me that a little soft piece of silk with rubbery goo on it can sound like a high pitched metal bell when asked to.
I have two JBL horn-loaded compression drivers and a pair of sealed boxes with aluminum tweeters. I haven’t heard soft dome tweeters (yet) but also amazed they can be so effective at reproducing metallic sounds. I'm leaning hard toward the Spendor D7.2s and they are soft dome. Will be buying with a solid return policy just in case ;) Still need to find a place to audition them.
It’s like gain and volume being used interchangeably.
Transient is that initial sound kind of peaky that somehow can be very awakening and very exciting.
A lot has to do with Recording quality and amplifier. I always view it as Rocky Mountains versus Appalachians when it comes to frequencies being Heard.
@grislybutter yes that's it to me: lively and sharp that some may describe as bright or harsh if it's not their listening preference, with fast bass at the cost of bass extension.
If transient response was the only main consideration, then paneled, horned, or field coil speakers might be ideal. Other speaker types might be a hit or miss depending on what the OP would subjectively accept. As always, best to personally demo as speaker sonic preferences can be highly subjective.
I would add Marten Oscar speakers to your list. They have ceramic drivers with extremely fast transients. They have videos on YouTube discussing why they selected ceramic as their chosen material. Their speakers are highly acclaimed. The suggestions for electrostatic and Borreson are good as well.
Other speaker types might be a hit or miss depending on what the OP would subjectively accept.
I agree -- I've AB tested my KLH Model 3s against my JBL 4305Ps and Studio 590s and the KLHs best them in this category even though it has dome aluminum tweeters vs the JBL horns. It's why the 4349 is on my short list against a couple of other options that are dome tweeters.
@ditusa thanks for these links. I found this especially interesting:
If you hear a system (hopefully not yours) that sounds "fast" or "slow" in the bass, enough that you have noticed anyway, that system has a problem.
Then my KLH setup has a problem because on tracks with complex percussion (Solange Seat at the Table is my favorite test recording for this) the bass behaves with appreciably more tightness and speed compared to my two JBL models. It's then a question of if I subjectively enjoy that presentation of the music better or worse than the JBLs, and for me the answer is that I do, realizing that many would likely prefer the bass presentation of the JBLs.
@greenngoldcheesehead thank you for your recommendation. I love that Marten names their speakers after jazz legends (huge Coltrane fan).
The trios look beautiful, regretfully out of my budget range (unless I hit the lottery in the next month). The Borresen X2 is within budget and there's a dealer not far from me.
Volti is a only a 7.5 drive down to Tennessee from you, you can listen to your hearts delight. Greg seems all too happy to give a factory tour, and set up speakers to listen in his audio room.
I'll be making that drive in April or May of next year to compare the Razz, Lucera, and Rival. If all goes well, I'll be driving a pair home with me.
I second the visit to Volti HQ !
Greg really went out of his way to make me feel welcome and comfortable. We listened for hours to several of his models, even a prototype. Without a doubt a session unlike anything I’ve experienced. Definitely not the comparatively short auditions at a hifi shop or a show. He really went out of his way to make sure I was more than satisfied with what I was bringing home.
I really appreciate the enthusiasm for Volti. That's a long trip and I am worried about the absence of a return policy, but I'm going to research more.
And I checked out Heil but their website doesn't give any information on speakers or did I miss something?
I would take a good look at Volti’s measurements. The frequency response is very poor on axis. There is a ton of comb filtering off axis too. The time domain is very poor. The box however looks dead quiet and they look great.
As to the relevance of transient abilities in a speaker and all that implies, it seems that area has now become a bit washed out, subjective in nature and with brands rather than general physics and design as the prevalent factor. That being said, if we’re speaking leading edge cleanliness/transient prowess in most of the audible frequency spectrum, and effortless at that at most any desired SPL (i.e.: easy of reproduction is not trivial here), large size and efficiency in addition to proper design/technology - from my chair - is inescapable.
@phusis. I think my last comment was fairly self explanatory.
There are several metrics that play into audiophile nirvana, transients being one of them. As long as a speaker tackles several of these metrics above a certain acceptable threshold, one might start raving about it. But, when you are locked into a design space, you can’t excel at everything.
I understand you’re a horn connesieur, speaking of horns, I had the older K2 9800 for a while. I have some big unheard of Yamaha PA in storage that probably beat that older JBl into dust (or what i remember of it). I may aspire to a Meyer Sound bluehorn or something similar at some future date. There are others who seem to do horns better than jbl, imo.
Can/does something like a Borresen transient wonder do the same things (other enjoyable things) as some of these big horns? NOT...different designs, different compromises.
The avg audiophile thinks that he gets the best of everything if he just spent enough on his 1 wonder pair of speakers....NOT. (he probably doesn’t have enough space or cash to accommodate more than 1 pair of very different types of speaker designs. Hence, he may either start lying to himself or the sales guy lied to him.)
@deep_333 thanks and I do enjoy / have enjoyed my JBL horns (still love my 4035Ps). The goal of this thread was for me to find the best higher-end options that give me the transients/speed of my KLH Model 3s in a better overall offering. Thanks to this great community, I think I've found the 3-4 options that are going to offer that. I'm not looking at it like finding the perfect speaker, more like a watch enthusiast that has a dress watch, diving watch, etc.
I'm down to the ATC SCM40s, Borresen X2s, Spendor D7.2s, and Marten Oscar Trios. The Martens are out of my range but there's a dealer nearby so I'm going to have a listen. I'm still looking for a local Spendor dealer.
@jayctoy congrats on your X1s! Love the look of them.
I have 50 years of critical listening, from classical forms of all genres, rock, folk, jazz. I have owned various cone speakers, Magnepans, Martin Logan electrostats, Apogee Scintlllas and Divas, then refurbished my Divas thoroughly with Graz ribbons by Bill Thalman. I've run them with AR preamp, Krell preamp and KSA 100 and 200 amps, now D'Agostino bi-amps, dcs Rossini and clock, Walker turntable, etc. The weight of Wilson Chronosonic speakers and subs are overall at the top of my wish (not bucket!) list. But when it comes to speed, instrument and vocal timber, imaging, focus, dynamics, musical accuracy and goosebumps I will give my strong endorsement to ribbons! A line source of little mass, they are so responsive and musically pleasing, they are remarkable. Once I heard and owned ribbons (1984 to present) I could never settle for anything else for mid-bass to high treble reproduction. Check out the current market if available to you. Only then can you truly give yourself a truly informed experience by which to make purchase decisions. They are musically truthful and unforgiving of modest sources and cabling, so beware - bring $$$ to the party. Most grateful I did!
I agree that ribbons and similar planar magnetics subjectively have very good transient response and can sound very good. I too like the Divas. These types of speakers make a good case for disregarding measurements as they have the worst waterfall plots which would suggest the opposite of clean and fast decay of notes.
I wish I could offer something useful. 300 wpc wasn't enough to give my Blades what they needed to put some bounce in their step, but adding the MC611's really woke things up.
Once I heard and owned ribbons (1984 to present) I could never settle for anything else for mid-bass to high treble reproduction.
That's not the first time I've read a post like this @classicalpiano ;) Thank you for your response. It's the big reason the Borresens are on the list.
@jayctoy I know the KLH brand is now under new ownership -- do wonder if they would ever do a panel speaker, based on the owner being from Klipsch I'm betting not...
When I listened to the borrensen 02’s at TNL when they first came out I was seriously disappointed in the performance. When listening at Axpona to the stand mounts they were probably my favorite sound at the show. Both demos were done by The Next Level and Aavik components also so I think room placement is critical with the speakers.
As similar as Borrensen and Raidho are I do wonder how similar they measure and while frequency response doesn’t trouble me too much I do like it when speaker pairs are matched to within audible levels of each other(some suggest .5 or 1db), something idk if B pays attention to.
Thanks for the feedback on Borresen -- I love their design but they are larger than my other options and worry they may overwhelm the room (although in reviews they are noted to sound great at low volumes).
I'll look for that sound signature when I demo them -- my KLH 3s are very fast but definitely not a digital or mechanical sound.
My choice for transient response with all the other desirable things included is a toss up between...VMPS tower II special editions...no longer made and seldom ever show up for sale used because people that buy them, keep them forever. Ribbon super tweeter, inverted cone tweeter, 5 " carbon fiber midrange and Dual 12" active drivers with a slot loaded passive radiator at the bottom of the enclosure.
And then the most amazing sound I have ever heard at any price, Ohm A - transient response and distortion extremely low at ALL frequencies. Truly an amazing loudspeaker, but ultimately flawed, limited ability to play loud without self destructing from cone over excursion and they required like 300 watts minimum to sound good and 301 watts to blow em up. I would love to have a speaker with the Ohm A sound quality but better durability and better dynamic range.
3rd on my list is the Klipschorn for all its capability, it is just not that accurate but it is exciting and engaging to listen to... and I think it has the transient response and relatively low distortion characteristics that are required.
I owned the VMPS for 20 years before a fire destroyed them...I cannot find anything so far that I like as well, let alone better. I wanna try out the Ohm F5 which is said to outperform anything Ohm has ever built. IF that is true, that might well be my endgame speaker. We are gonna find out in a few months....
@livinon2wheels have you heard other models in the Heritage line? I heard the La Scalas for a moment and they were surreal, could not spend more time with them bc some guy kept fiddling with the Mcintosh amp that was driving them. I was amazed by the holographic imaging, but didn't have the chance to test them for transients.
There are a couple of heritage line dealers in the city that I plan on visiting and will try out the Forte. The CW is too big for the space i have to work with.
Surprised to see no mention of Revel here. Percussion comes through with amazing clarity on the F206, which requites transient capability, right? And Revel has several lines superior to those (and one line below, whose F56 is not as clear sounding). To my ears, the Revel's harmonic and transient clarity is far superior to the ribbons in Emotiva and the horns in Klipsch. But then, there are a number of brands being discussed here I've never heard.
I think my last comment was fairly self explanatory.
There are several metrics that play into audiophile nirvana, transients being one of them.
No disagreement here, but what I did disagree with was your take on how large horns were represented, or certainly your interpretation of it (quoted paragraph of yours in my earlier reply) in this particular context, and this is still the area (i.e.: transients) that's my main focus; no deduction on my part into a conclusion that basically claims ".. if a speaker excels in transients, it's great at everything."
As long as a speaker tackles several of these metrics above a certain acceptable threshold, one might start raving about it.
Indeed, especially a select group of "macro parameters."
But, when you are locked into a design space, you can’t excel at everything.
Maybe not, but I'd argue certain design spaces allow for greater potential overall when taken to their fuller "extremes" and more radical implementations, as is the case - in my point of view - with large, horn-loaded speakers, and to some degree also ESL's. That the potential of horn speakers is mostly not realized isn't a design deficit with regard to performance versatility and breadth, but rather the restrictions imposed by the users from aesthetic and interior design considerations, which dictate a smaller size factor.
I understand you’re a horn connesieur, speaking of horns, I had the older K2 9800 for a while. I have some big unheard of Yamaha PA in storage that probably beat that older JBl into dust (or what i remember of it). I may aspire to a Meyer Sound bluehorn or something similar at some future date. There are others who seem to do horns better than jbl, imo.
Again, no disagreement here. I'm not a JBL fan as is (kinda was in my early youth though), certainly not of their wider range of domestic offerings, but they're one of the few originally pro manufacturers to still provide a home line of speakers where their pro origins can "bleed" into, and for that I find they deserve some credit. However, there's a bunch of other pro manufacturers with designs from their pro repertoire (both older or newer stuff), that - given proper implementation - will quite easily challenge and exceed domestic solutions from JBL in a home environment, at potentially much lower prices, simply because they more readily adhere to core physics.
Can/does something like a Borresen transient wonder do the same things (other enjoyable things) as some of these big horns? NOT...different designs, different compromises.
There are traits cultivated from specific design routes that are difficult to extract in others, yes.
The avg audiophile thinks that he gets the best of everything if he just spent enough on his 1 wonder pair of speakers....NOT. (he probably doesn’t have enough space or cash to accommodate more than 1 pair of very different types of speaker designs. Hence, he may either start lying to himself or the sales guy lied to him.)
My take: cost isn't the real issue here, but rather the extent to which one is willing to go to materialize a potential from a specific, fitting design path. Vanity, dogma and/or conjecture are other issues; many won't wade into the pro arena with functional looking (and sometimes cheaper) products in addition to, as mentioned earlier, large size.
@asctimnot sub 1/10th millisecond issues that arise from the mass of the diaphragm, or slew times of amplifiers,
My experience of slew rates is different. I am driving ESL's, and my amps sound good with 30V/us output transistors, better with 40V/us, and better yet with 50 V/us; that is, better transient response.
"Be careful with Borresen, they are impressive first and very fast, but they sound very digital and mechanical, they do not give a natural sound."..........hmmmm, They give a beautiful natural sound.....Their "Modern" looks fool you. I’m sure you Don’t own them and probably Never heard them. I Own Them and I have over 300 hrs. on them. They are beautiful to look at and to listen to. Very Quick but Warm at the same time. The X-2’s and X-3’s are their Sweet Spot.
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