Can I get my Prima Luna to sound more like a SET/300B?

You might consider adding a 300B preamp.  I use one with solid state amps.

May give you enough of the flavor?

Total Harmonic Distortion, peak watts... even RMS watts is deceptive. There are so many measurements that sound like they should  tell you something concrete  in high end audio that don’t. What stuff sounds like is what counts. Well designed 300b amps with good quality 300B tubes are simply stunning and realistic. 

@sns +1 " Get a 300B SET if you want an amp that sounds like a 300B SET"

@jasonbourne71 +1 "Single end amps are distortion-generating devices” correct! it’s due to non-symmetric nature of SET load-line up/down from tuning point! PP amps are good at eliminating symmetry problems, assuming maintenance/adjustments are done correctly. Nelson Pass designs are the best for SET sound fans! If speaker does have symmetry problems, due to static B-field symmetry issues around coil, SET connected proper way to speaker helps to cancel it, and really does sound better than excellent PP! 

whyrichard

Please let us know how the Rays Reserve EL34s go please, I'm interested. I will say that the PSVane EL34-PH tubes are really good for their price, I have a great Chinese source for a matched quad at $292

Hey OP

i hope that your tube rolling will turn out successful. I heard that Ray reserved tubes are very good tubes, I hope it turns out alright

I don’t have a 300B amp, but my audiophile nephew has one, I believe a JELabs designed 300b and using top tier components and Japan steel cores. it is topped with Takatsuki 300b. This is powering a pair of Reference 3A de capos.

phew, this setup is a great setup. Now, as one of the posters have said above, Pass Labs SS gear, specially the XA25 Can come close. Well, I have the XA25 driving LS3/5A. I can tell you firsthand that 300B setup and the Xa25 is very close to surreal. Yes, if I were to nitpick, I give the nod to 300B as being more enchanting, palpable and enveloping. 

I may not have a good answer to your quest, but when the time comes, you may be at the crossroads to get a 300B amp versus going to a Solid state such as the Pass Labs XA 25 or Pass SIT-4, consider this as a reminder that some SS gear can give you what you wanted after all. No need to go SET and the power that a Pass Labs SS can provide will allow your PAP play louder and be more engaging. who knows it allows more genre of music to sound (I meant PRAT) better. 

I have to tell you the truth, the answer to your question is maybe you can get it a little bit but your pushpull amp will never sound like a single end amp. Single end amps have a different sound than push pull amps.  Nothing you can do to change that. I own several pushpull and single end amps. My pushpull amps range from 5 watts to 180 watts and my single end amps range from 3/4 watt up to my biggest amp 45 watts. 

I didn’t read every post here but I have that amp and have had 2 other PL amps before it. I’ve also had SET amps. The closest sound I had to a SET with my Primaluna was a quad of Sophia Electric blue glass el34 tubes and 6 La Radiotechnique 12ax7’s in the front. Sounded fantastic. Might have been 12au7’s as I can’t remember exactly what that amp uses but either way that was the combo. Sounded fantastic. I’ve used at least 15 tube combos with that amp. That was one of my favorite combos. Other was Gold Lion KT88s. If I had to live with one tube with that amp it would be KT88 followed by el34 and related variants. Was never a fan of KT120 or 150. 
 

"Effortless" is not a adjective I would use to describe the sound of a 300B SET.

I dont care which expert you want to quote regarding the inherent superiority of a particular type of tube amp over another.

PP amps produce less distortion and have more power than SETs, but the p.p. operation also makes this type sound sort of thick and confused when compared with SETs. The thing you can be certain of is that your SET is going to start to soft clip very quickly and product a bunch of really nice distortion. 

Not sure if the OP is looking for an amp or integrate, but I picked up a used Coincident Frankenstein 300b mono blocks - high-value sold direct with plenty of very positive reviews from a long established company.  

Best advice on this thread. Get a 300B SET if you want an amp that sounds like a 300B SET. Nothing more, nothing less. Various topologies and output tubes have unique presentations, trying to homogenize this is a hopeless cause.

I’ll see if the ray tubes unlock the sound i am yearning for. I got the PL amp for a song from a family member, and it triggered a bunch of upgrades throughout my system… I have never been able to listen to a proper 300 b system but the way they are described sounds perfect and may be the path forward… we will see. 

I was frustrated with power tubes going out frequently, and spending days diagnosing a tube with distortion… i wanted something dependable and replaceable without drama… i have a young family and want to spend my time listening rather than hunting down old tubes. Hopefully the RAY tubes fits the bill… the ray tubes are expensive, but are rated for 10k hours. The GL in comparison are rated for 2k hours… so the price difference made sense to me. 

Thank you all for the saucy and sage advice!

r.

I want a well built speaker cabinet, something beautiful to look at not drivers looking back at me with no grill and hell nothing in the back at all, wires and the back of the drivers not covered..for that kind of money..no thanks..

you fell is a bottomless pit with no way out..

"You have some great gear, search for NOS EL 34’s, more warmth than any new production tube."

The OP just dropped $2K on tubes.

It's a little late now.

Since RCA 6L6 Blackplate was mentioned earlier, this is what to get instead

https://www.tubedepot.com/products/350b-we?srsltid=AfmBOorxrgtndagEtJ5kZf1uBJw_sB7yuPuQSFqwZauGkYJB8kNUx7q5

I always wanted to experience the 300b sound. But for forty years was pursuing planar speakers... pretty much the opposite direction... I needed massive power. 

After retiring I decided to upgrade my headphone system that began with years of pursuing the best possible sound... I tried many high end head amps I imported one from Germany... then I found Woo head amps. After being really happy with a couple... I realize I could upgrade to their 300B headphone amp. So I got the Woo Wa5 and then tried a couple different 300B tubes... settling on Takatsuki 300B... arguably the best made. 

Changed my life. The incredible power (this head amp comes with speaker outputs it is so powerful)... took total control of all the different headphones I had and produced the warmest, most detailed, musical, and powerful sound I have every heard. I can listen to them for hours. Many years later, I still listen to this system every day (see my virtual systems).

It also triggered a complete upgrade / change in direction of my main system. I realized my main system was sterile and analytical sounding. I swapped out all but one piece of equipment. It is now an all Audio Research system and has many similar characteristics to my headphone system, musical and natural sounding. 

I also have a PrimaLuna integrated (I’m listening to it now). It does not start in the right place it get you there. 

If you really want to experience 300B... you might try what I did. Apply 300B tubes to a headphone system. They have plenty of power for that. Then save up for some Takatsuki tubes... $2K per pair. Jaw dropping sound. 

Generally speaking for main systems, you need more powerful components. But to get natural and musical... somewhat like the 300B, I recommend looking to Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, and VAC. These companies focus on producing natural and musical sounding systems. 

Maybe you need to pursue a high quality class AB or class A. amp.  There will always be limitations with the Prima Luna.

Try a Svetlana St Petersburg EL 34’s.  Closest my Dennis Had Inspire KT-88 amp comes to having the rich full midrange of my Cary Audio 300B SEI amp.  PrimaLuna’s are great amps, but voiced a little more toward the modern tube amp transparent sound.  Pentodes have more power than triodes, drive more “clarity” which is a little less “bloomy” than triodes.  
 

You have some great gear, search for NOS EL 34’s, more warmth than any new production tube.  

You could get sell your Prima Luna and get a SET/300B.  Then it would sound like a SET/300B.  

@whyrichard I hope the tube journey you are on turns out ok, trying 300b and the Ray tubes won’t do it. When you hit bottom get away from tubes..

I will see if the Prima Luna with the ray el34 reserve tubes I just ordered satisfy my ears… and if not I will move my attention to a 300b of some sort… 

big moves. Much passion of the ear. 
 

r

For the price of boutique parts, NOS tubes and labor the OP can get cheap thrills 

https://www.amazon.com/Willsenton-R300-Plus-Single-Ended-Silver/dp/B09P57GDTB/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?adgrpid=175661546319&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.qhIKNZwLeJ_mlmt4aX4AieRnbnliYtvSZj0RwpjO5DKqTUNmkzP0wzgGjcNcyAddgyvE7LmOOUa1op4U-R6w_rk_CzoUkyUk5qxtCpU2HkfxLBV1yYp-0F02IrFYOOUqv7Rwxzv_kWei2hsYceGz5g.JDX-AScrgsHUMGC64dApzl1BkxmEPwAfXtsh1mcSyX8&dib_tag=se&hvadid=738997875106&hvdev=m&hvexpln=68&hvlocphy=9031095&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=5463825210028252227--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=5463825210028252227&hvtargid=kwd-1643976682486&hydadcr=20573_13296496&keywords=willsenton%2B300b&mcid=81e3c672250f3a1192c0bedf4f3af425&qid=1755551839&sr=8-1&th=1&psc=1

YouTube/forums and some DIY skills or shop=300b magic.

PLDHP is fantastic for what it is. Using mine since 2015. No amount of mod/tubes will make it approach the DHT sound.

A modded PLDHP will sound like..a modded PLDHP.

I went from a Primaluna PL2 to a Decware Mini Torii.  Wow, what a big difference and with the same speakers ( Ref 3A de Capo 92db eff)

I own a prima Luna dialogue premium integrated, and have had it about five years and have no desire to try another tubed amp. I have owned 2 SET amps in the past but  I prefer the presentation of the Prima Luna. I tried the usual NOS route  and now use Ray KT 88 and Ray 12AU7. My amp has transformed into a sound I did not think was possible, very smooth and detailed but not analytical. I was just not using the best possible tubes I guess. I can’t recommend Ray tubes enough. I did not buy the reserve quality KT 88 but went with the select. If anyone tries Ray tubes, they will probably give up the NOS chase, they are that good.

Do you run it in triode mode?

DeKay

@whyrichard Hello I went down a trail similar to yours, and so glad I left it all behind, what a relief. 
   I got involved with lots of tubes stuff my last big mistake was the PL EVO 400 pre, PL EVO 400 amp and just to put the big mistake cherry on top free falling down the rabbit hole the PL Dac. For a solid year I tried different tubes and spent a lot of money for nothing. When the amp blew a fuse and a EL34 stock tube quit working that was it for me, bought all new stock tubes and sold all the PL stuff to one great local guy. 
  Now what, no amp or preamp done with tubes I spent a lot of time with emails to Nelson Pass a great guy, (long story short get rid of  the tube stuff), I ended up with the Pass Labs preamp, Pass Labs XA-25 amp waiting for the First Watt Sit-4 to began production..the Sit-4 arrived 6 months later, it’s glorious, no more tube stuff running through my brain…do yourself a favor get solid state that sounds good to your ears, otherwise you will always be falling into that tube rabbit hole…I am now in music nirvana, Pass preamp, First Watt Sit-4 amp, Volti Audio Lucera speakers.

NEVER GOING BACK TO TUBE STUFF, MY WIFE BANNED ME FROM TUBES..

1:NO YOU CAN NOT...
2:With your speakers why are you messing around with an amp other than the amps you know give you the sound you want?

@jasonbourne71 + 1 - good suggestions; many other NOS upgrade KT77s would sound better than Gold Lions as well. Tube upgrades can be very well worth it.  

SED EL34 from the 90's are best EL34 I've heard. I've had a number of pp and SET amps, closest pp to SET sound I've heard is my newly purchased PP monoblocks based on Bendix 6094 tube, this has 12wpc. I also used to run Prima Luna Dialogue, mods will only take you so far, but some nice EL34 and something like Jupiter copper foil coupling caps will help that amp.

Hello all,

I will be spending some time combing over all the information on 300B, SET amps, and the like, and this will take some time! I am looking forward to the potential here… 

But yes I read through that thread and I do not disregard the Prima Luna’s potential. 

So, considering that my Gold Lion KT77’s are biting the dust, I would like to consider the options you all mentioned as well as ask you all if you have a sense of a few more I have come across as contemporary options:

-Psvane EL34PH: These seem possible as an option, though perhaps I seek something with a bit more flair…

-NOS RCA 6L6 Black Plates: These seem very pricey and difficult to source in quantities of 8, as my Prima Luna require…

-TAD Red Base EL34’s: How are these? I have heard they may surpass a mythical NOS tube… (forget which, from a Satori review of the Psvane)

-Ray Tubes: These seem to get written up well, though pricey…. Any personal experience with Ray tubes? 

-Sophia Electric: Anyone have experience with these? Supposedly great with acoustic…. 

THANK YOU much for your impressions… 

r.

Rather than hack your power amps (which will destroy their resale value), time to start shopping around for different power amps. Your speakers are pretty efficient, so 15 to 20 watts should be plenty. There are some push-pull 300B amps out there (Don Sachs and I make some, but out of your price range) that are very good. There are some pretty decent SET 300B amps in your price range as well, but they are quite variable in sound, depending on design details like driver design, power supply isolation, and more subtle details like point-to-point wiring vs circuit boards.

I should mention designers of Class D amps sometimes (not always) use an analog front end to deliberately "tune" the sound of the Class D power section. As a result, there is no one Class D sound ... each Class D brand needs to be auditioned to determine their house sound, which you may or may not like.

So ... you can choose PP 300B, SET 300B, or a "tuned" Class D amp. I am a little hesitant to recommend any push-pull pentode amp, because it’s very difficult to get the distinctive 300B sound with that topology and tube choice. There are definite limits to what you can do with cap swaps and power supply tuning.

P.S. Single-ended pentode amps live in a world of their own, quite separate from PP 300B, SET 300B, or PP pentode.

The OP should ditch the Gold Lion KT77's and buy a set of NOS RCA 6L6 Black Plates. I have a quad set to use in my Heath W5 monos.

Why would you want to do that? Ralph Karsten of Atmosphere has posted here on another thread about why a well-designed PP tube amp is inherently superior to SET amps. Single end amps are distortion-generating devices. Past the first 25% of wattage distortion rises rapidly to 10% or more. That can hardly be called "high fidelity!" The 300B tube has a usable 2 watts available! At 8 watts it's distortion is 10% and rising! Forget SET's! Stick to PP 6L6/5881/EL34/6550/KT88 types.

In short, no you cannot, but you can tailor it in that direction. Something about the circuitry and transformers in the amp prohibit it from getting that smooth, and it’s hard to even get conventional tube sound out of your amp as it is very linear aka solid state sounding as a tube amp. I’ve owned the amp multiple times over the course of ten years and have plenty of experience with it. 

That said, a few things to potentially try before you invest serious money into a new amp. 

• Get the Psvane EL34PH for output tubes. They are the most 300B-like EL34 I’ve ever tried. Just really wonderful… golden, rich and harmonic, a bit rounded and refined on the frequency extremes, especially compared to the others you listed. 
• Brimar CV4003 on the first two (center) tubes. These are also a bit more refined and softer sounding than the hashy stock tubes.
• Quality power (cables and conditioners) can also do a great job of enabling an amp  to perform its best.