Can someone suggest a lush tube integrated under $3000 used

The Silver Luna made by Audio Fezz .

Many 300B amps would do the trick.

Icon Audio Stereo 300 MKII (300B) which I own is exactly what you are looking for but might be a long time before you see one under $3k. Maybe under $4k used if you are lucky.

It replaces Willsenton R300 which is also very lush but just not as resolving but still really good sounding. New $1.5k used maybe $1k.

Muzishare X9 which I also own 300B but more hifi than lush so not a good fit for what you are looking for but for someone else wanting liner sound then yes. Those are around $2k used.

Willsenton R8 I owned a few years ago. I would have to disagree a little that it is lush. More like bassy. IMHO.

 

many many out there under 3 grand used

Under 3 Grand, the Fezz Audio Silver Luna hands down . Can"t go wrong with this one

I would agree on the CJ Cav models. I used a 45 for awhile and it was quite nice with the same kind of music you reference on my 2nd set of speakers, Kef R3s. It was not as good on my primary Ohm Walsh 2s which are more demanding. Still do think about going to separates from CJ...just not in my retiree price range new and I prefer new due to warranty.

I always end up getting bored of Lush sounding gear, at first its all sweet and dandy.

true if the sound is lush without resolving power, but there are (usually higher end) excellent sounding options that provides both

I always end up getting bored of Lush sounding gear, at first its all sweet and dandy.

Looks like he bought an amp. That's great.  I do want to mention if you have vintage tubes you want to use, you may not have matched pairs for BIAS not transconductance.  You can't match them on most old testers. If that's the case, make sure the amp has a bias adjustment for each tube.  The Cary SLI-80 Sig has a bias adjustment for each pair, so you need matched pairs. 

A cathode-bias amp can reduce tube life since they run in class a.  See if you can find out how much plate voltage and how they bias the amp. It's hard to find out but ask around if you have tubes you treasure.  

Lot’s of good recommendations above. Another one to consider is the BLACK ICE F35, with KT 150’s. The amp is very flexible ( can safely use, EL 34, KT 88, 120, 150, and the new KT 170’s....also 6550’s).
My unit has the KT 150,s. It’s definitely not “ Syrupy” sounding.....Smooth, liquid, with very good dynamic contrasts and “punchy” and impactful bass. Approximately 75 watts Per Channel at 8 Ohms.

Cheers......

Congratulations @paulcreed. Pure class A push pull topology.  I haven't heard this brand but  reportedly they have very robust power supply and output transformers.  I hope this amplifier works out well with your particular speakers. 
Charles 

Decided on the Audio Hungary a20i bought a demo from a dealer so should be here late next week. It stayed within my budget so I’m good with that normally I tend to go over. I saw a used Jadis in my budget but it was 20 years old and concerned with failure. I noticed a lot of people I talked to that we’re selling the Raven Blackhawk get the Raven but don’t keep it long, maybe 6 month. I really want a amp I can hold onto for many years. Hopefully this one is a keeper. Thank you to everyone for helping me find a amp.

Jadis fits the bill 

The Conrad Johnson CAV45 or 50 would suit your needs. Looks like you already thought about them. The CAV45 can often be found used for $3K. Good Luck!

Therefore, me being the sensitive logical and comprehending audio guru that I am I point out that Raven will deliver all that he wants without having to put up with any of what he doesn’t.

Guru, huh? You are nothing if not humble.

Yes a Cayin tube amp I have the 50mt....its is great....I drive polk lsim707 speakers a no problem....

@paulcreed, 

"That’s not what I’m looking for. I grew up in New Orleans going in little jazz clubs with maybe 10 or 30 people in there with all acoustic instruments no microphones no board only the acoustics of the room, and hope it’s a good room. Maybe a better word is I’m looking for natural or organic tones on the warm side."

Yep! Understanding completely what you want, organic, full bodied tone and instrumental weight and warmth. Nothing to do with "syrupy".
I share a similar background as you. Many years attending intimate jazz venues and hearing acoustic instruments up close and without  microphones (Unnecessary in the small clubs). Doing this for 30 years has definitely left an imprint 😃.

It's very difficult for audio components to reproduce that genuine  dynamic full warm tone of those live instruments.  However some very good tube components come closer than other alternatives in my opinion. 
Charles 

Words like syrupy and lush may have been a mistake. kennyc my main system you hear deep in recording, big tight bass, some effects coming out of speakers are so real they will startle you coming out of nowhere. Highs have air and sparkle. I truly enjoy that system. 

That’s not what I’m looking for. I grew up in New Orleans going in little jazz clubs with maybe 10 or 30 people in there with all acoustic instruments no microphones no board only the acoustics of the room, and hope it’s a good room. Maybe a better word is I’m looking for natural or organic tones on the warm side. 

If the music calls for a dirty sound then the amp can get dirty and raw. I don’t think any amp can sound like real music but would just like to get as close as I can. 

I think the Audio Hungary looks very interesting but it would have to be used. The one on usam has been pulled off.

 On a whim got a Willsenton R8 (yes Chinese but very well made, made in the same factory as line magnetic stuff i believe)  and it's surprisingly well made and sounds very good if I do say. I have a bunch of tube stuff at home and its way better than the price would indicate, came super well packaged as well. takes KT88, 6550 / EL34's switchable. 

I have no issues at recommending one of their amps. customer service was excellent as well when i had a question they were back to me in a day (very good considering the time difference).  

there's enough reviews on youtube now, google and they pop up by the droves. and I agree with all of them.

 I use mine in my computer room system originally on some Tektons Lore's now driving some much less efficient ADS speakers and the amp sound fantastic. tube change was the fist thing i did mind you. 

I second the Quicksilver Integrated and also Audio Hungary a20i
See it here used and they will blow anything Raven builds out of the water. PERIOD!
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649782052-audio-hungary-qualiton-a20i/

Might want to change out one of your speaker selections.  I have the same electronics and get very different sound from the Proac 3.8 than I do the JM Reynauds.  3.8 is more HiFi, the JM’s have that sound you seem to be describing. 

Goners-

I have discovered the website now, will not allow suggestions of listings on other sites. EVEN if you try to post in a stealthy manner.

Did my best to suggest a listing of a Chinese brand on the blankmart.

Somedays I just miss the lush involving syrupy tube sound with small jazz and blues recordings.

Perhaps if the OP shared the past components used to produce his favored sound it may help us to better understand the warmed level he is looking for.  

Ozzy62-

MC, is your Blackhawk "lush and syrupy’? If so, sorry for you. If not, nice try and thanks for playing........

Never good to go snotty, especially not with me, and definitely not when all it winds up accomplishing is revealing your lack of reading comprehension.

Read what I wrote- exactly what I wrote:

You don’t have to settle for lush and rolled off. If what you want is involving to where you lose track of time then you don’t even have to settle for used. Slam? Raven Nighthawk will get you there brand new no syrup no problem.

Now, what the OP said was,

Somedays I just miss the lush involving syrupy tube sound... I know highs may be rolled off, not a lot of slam but can be so involving you lose track of time.

Now since you’re having such a hard time with this I am going to explain what this means. He wants "involving" so much he mentions it twice. In relation to lush and syrupy, which we know he doesn’t really care for since he says, "I know the highs may be rolled off, not a lot of slam, but can be so involving you lose track of time."

It is clear to me he wants to be involved to such an extent he loses track of time, and not only that but wants this so much he is willing to put up with rolled off highs, etc.

Therefore, me being the sensitive logical and comprehending audio guru that I am I point out that Raven will deliver all that he wants without having to put up with any of what he doesn’t.

Sincerely do hope this clears it up for you.

@ozzy62,

"With shipping both ways and restock fee that could get kind of pricey. But it’s the only way to know for sure"

You are right,  the shipping cost is a consideration. But if truly interested how else can @paulcreed determine if the Raven works out for his needs.
The very informed and thoughtful post from @arafigpq addressing the 20 watt Raven-lower sensitivity pairing is exactly why a home trial audition is so valuable.

What didn’t work for @arafiq could possibly work for another. Getting the amplifier into the home audio system and ’just listen’ is the way to go.
Charles

in my travels, cj’s, cary’s and primaluna’s have evoked the word ’lush’ sounding in integrated amps (vac’s are variable by model, as are vtl’s i m e)

not the last word in impact, nor transparency, but certainly ’lush’ - as usual, it is about putting the piece in place within a chain that benefits from its prime sonic characetristics

that’s the balanced, experienced, nuanced reply i was hoping would help the OP to widen perspective….

thanks.

so very sorry to hear of friends setback, if there is a way i can help, let me know. Hopefully he at least has some music

best

Jim

@tomic601 -- The VTL was actually bought by my friend. I didn't want to bring it up because the OP wanted to learn more about Raven, but there's simply no comparison. The VTL I-85 is in a totally different league compared to Raven's Blackhawk. It has that el34 magic but also the balls to drive low sens speakers very well. 

If you look at my main virtual system pics, you will see the VTL sitting side by side with the Qualiton a50i. We did a shootout a few weeks ago. The VTL is very good but the a50i is in yet another league above the VTL, at least for my taste. But I can def see how someone might actually prefer the el34 sound of the VTL over the KT120 of a50i.

Unfortunately, my friend had some unexpected expenses so he basically returned the speakers and amp back to me. I don't really need an expensive amp in my study, otherwise I would have bought the VTL from him in a heartbeat. I might be putting it up for sale soon. I wish I could somehow justify keeping both the Qualiton a50i and VTL in my systems, but I can't :(

@arafiq still high on the VTL ?

OP: Raven Audio Nighthawk is a great match with high sensitivity speakers. I can tell you from experience (I owned the Blackhawk for several months) that they don't do as well with anything less than 88 db. I tried them with Harbeth 30.1 and SHL5+, and while they don't sound bad per se, the limitations of 20 watts become immediately obvious. They were ok in my home office (12x13) but were completely lost in the main audio room (20x15). I'm willing to admit that in my case it was not the amp's fault, I just wasn't matching them with appropriate speakers.

All I'm saying is that they don't do well with low'ish sensitivity speakers in slightly bigger spaces. Don't let anyone persuade you otherwise. But if your speakers are reasonably efficient in a small to midsize room, then yes they are absolutely amazing. I also owned Cronus Magnum II prior to the Blackhawk, and while the CM provided more oomph, it lacked the beautiful and lush (not syrupy at all) musicality of the Blackhawk. Given your speakers are a good match, Raven provides a nice dose of the 'true' tube sound without stepping into the 'syrupy' territory. The build quality and looks are also top grade.

Agreed about the Avatar SE in triode, not so much ultralinear. You should probably look for a tube amp that can play both triode and UL. The CAV can be wired to do triode but it's a project, no a switch, although you can probably make a switch. 
 

Fortunately Raven Audio has a very generous 45 day home trial period.

 With shipping both ways and restock fee that could get kind of pricey. But it's the only way to know for sure.

Oz

MC, is your Blackhawk "lush and syrupy'? If so, sorry for  you. If not, nice try and thanks for playing........

If it has not already become apparent, you will be best served by not giving any additional credence to those persons whose only apparent reason for frequenting this forum is to obsessively advertise brands that they own.

Another vote for the VAC Avatar - the SE version but not the Super version.

@paulcreed,
One thing is for sure, all 20 watt tube amplifiers aren't the same nor are 87 db sensitivity speakers (Some are simply easier impedance loads than others). Sensitivity alone doesn't present the entire picture.

Fortunately Raven Audio has a very generous 45 day home trial period.  No better way to determine if their 20 watt amplifier is right for your particular situation. 
Charles 

I watched a video on the owner/designer of Raven Audio and his thoughts on building an amp were very impressive. His philosophy reminded me of Don Allen a guy that built a preamp for me long ago that cost $800 but sounded better than some $5000 preamps I had. Don always felt not to use matching resistors and caps, his idea was trial and error with parts to find the right sound, same statement Raven audio made.

I like how Raven pre has 6 preamp tubes to stagger different brands. They claim to put some money in the preamp section which I feel a lot of other company’s cut corners on the preamp section of an integrated. Main reason I’ve not had good luck with integrated amps a have used separates. 
Can someone explain how how Raven is getting moderately efficient speakers to get loud with 20 tube watts. I have a Mapleshade Scott lk48  maybe 20 watts but it can only do so much with 6 ohm 87 db speakers. That’s why it’s in a closet, it’s great with Altec 604’s or Klipsch but anything else it falls short. 
I like what I’m seeing from Raven Audio, will look into them some more.

Conrad Johnson is the obvious one to look at.  There's the CAV-50 and nowadays the CAV45-S2.

paulcreed- 20 watts is a concern with 6ohm 87db speaker even with there claim of high current.

You would drop that concern in a heartbeat if you were here for Chuxpona. We had some very inefficient 87dB monitors that were driven with some 100+ solid state watts at first because we couldn't believe the little Raven would be enough. When we switched amps to the Blackhawk those speakers came ALIVE! Anyone listening blind would swear the amps were reversed, they sounded so much better with the Raven.  

The owner was floored and wanted to see how loud they would go. "Is that as loud as it goes?" he asked. I never had to crank it like that with my Moabs, so just kept cranking until it was about 3/4. The sound was big and full and LOUD! 

I know it sounds crazy. The common wisdom keeps insisting watts are watts, no matter how many absolutely unbelievably compelling demonstrations proving it wrong. They just keep going. Like the freaking Energizer Bunny. No evidence. Proven wrong over and over again. Do a search. Read actual user comments. Lots of people have these with speakers like yours, power is simply not a problem.  

Oh and the room we were filling with volume? 17x24x9. Not small. And full of sound absorbing audiophiles at the time. I believe this is written up in my Chuxpona review as well.

Quickie EL84 would be really interesting to hear. OP said his speaker is not efficient though. Cary SLI-80 was the first that comes to mind. There are quite a few who perform upgrades to it, so there are always options to make it more neutral. In stock form it is said to be on the vintage (warm) side, as described here above.....

@paulcreed ,
I would suggest you reach out to Auric Audio. They may be able to build you what you want near your budget target. Excellent quality work and customer service.Let him know what you desire. Choice of transformers, capacitors, resistors and wire can tailor the sonic signature of an amplifier.
Charles

Quicksilver integrated. Great customer service.

http://quicksilveraudio.com/products/integrated-amplifier/

OP clarified his intentions, otherwise I agree with your comments.

You guys are throwing out random suggestions of amps that you like. Would you describe these amps as having  "lush involving syrupy tube sound"? I bet if you really thought they sounded that way, you wouldn't like 'em. Syrupy is NOT something I want in my system. Which is exactly why the Cary I recommended in this thread lasted less than a week at my house.


But that's what the OP wants.....

@paulcreed ,
Thanks for the "syrupy" clarification, makes more sense as to what you are seeking. If you are cautious of 20 watts, consider various  used Quicksilver, VAC and conrad johnson options These 3 represent good engineering/design/sound quality/reliability  and customer service..
Charles

+1
@knotscott
Bob Latino VTA amps are very impressive. The ST 120 can use a lot of popular tubes. Not sure if the El 34 is one of them because they don't make the kind of power you need to run your speakers.

Maybe syrupy is the wrong word. Warm side of neutral may be better. Around 15 years ago I tried the BAT vk5i, Rouge 99 magnum and thought they were nice but didn’t provide the enjoyment of the others tube preamps I’ve owned. I did look into the suggested Raven and that looks very interesting. The thought and build quality they provide looks inviting. They do claim warm side of neutral. 20 watts is a concern with 6ohm 87db speaker even with there claim of high current.

Having previously owned a Rogue Cronus Magnum I wouldn't go that route for the sound you are describing, it's sound is anything but "syrupy".

What no mention of the Prima Luna integrated  tube amp? Designed in Europe, built in China. Automatic biasing so it can run any of the popular 6L6/EL34/7581/5881/KT66/KT88 ... types. Can be bought new for the OP's budget!

@paulcreed, 
A well designed and implemented tube amplifier can offer beautiful and realistic full bodied tonality,  timbre and harmonic overtones. In my opinion these are very desirable and coveted sonic characteristics.  You can have all of this without "syrupy" signature.

I could be misunderstanding your use of that term. Syrupy has a negative connotation to my interpretation. Tubes can provide the positive qualities I mentioned without sacrificing resolution, inner detail and nuance. 
Charles 

If lush is what you want, then the Cary SLI-80 (non F1 version) is the one you want. To my ears it was TOO lush, sort of uninvolving. And that was with horn speakers. But it will certainly never offend.

Oz