Good Suggestions for Tube Amps under 6k

I’m happy with my ARC Vsi75, only four power tubes and 2 pre tubes.  They can now be had for 5 to 6k.

Got to this post now. Almost a year after it started.

Have been looking for a tube amp for some time. Recently purchased a Audio Note P2SE, love it. Old- 1997- surprising works super well. I didn't know I was buying a 1997 one - and am glad I didn't- if I did, I would not have.

I also auditioned at home another Audio Note- Cobra Integrated. Amazing.

I also have a hybrid Vincent SV200- love that.

Still on the look out for one more. It was interesting reading so many great choices from people. I made a list which I will look out for in my travels.

Audio Hungary Qualiton

Jadis

Linear Tube Audio Z40+

LTA Ultralinear +

Line Magnetic 8051A

Aric Audio Transcend Push Pull

Synthesis A100, A40

Cayin A88T

Valhalla

Raven

Bob Carver

Apollo Audio

Lab 12

"In my experience, there is a spacious dimensionality in high-quality tube amps that I never quite hear in SS amps of the same caliber / price range. Texture and tone, particularly in acoustic and wood instruments. Also, the assured warmth without loss of lucid definition. And today’s good tubes don’t suffer from labels such as "slow," "tubey" or from any background hiss. Certainly, SS is easier to manage at all the points we all know... I went from British SS amps to tube amps a while back, and it’s hard to go back. But I’m always listening for good SS as well... Recommendations?"

I generally agree but there are exceptions.

You should hear Bakoon amps.They are incredibly 3D sounding Class A/B.

I have owned and used some pretty decent SETs and other tube amps and the Bakoons at least match them for deep layered soundstage and ambience.

Lots of misinformation about PrimaLuna using circuit boards in the signal path here.

”PrimaLuna employs Point to Point Wiring on all products. The entire signal path, including resistors and capacitors, is painstakingly hand wired with heavy-gauge cable by craftsman.”

https://www.primaluna-usa.com/primaluna-evo-400-tube-integrated

@recklesskelly , I have never been to the Cayin or Primaluna factories/factory, but like tsugury, I have heard the same thing from industry folks.  If true, it does not mean it is a bad thing.  Some factories make multiple brands.  Primaluna and Cayin are both fantastically well built machines. 

This is not factual. @upscaleaudio  would you care to comment? 

https://www.primaluna-usa.com/about

tsugury

246 posts

05-16-2023 at 09:01pm 

Prima Luna is made by Cayin. I also have a Cayin KT88 which I am extremly happy with.

Prima Luna is made by Cayin. I also have a Cayin KT88 which I am extremly happy with.

Someone above asked about modifying a Primaluna amp.  I have personally done that.  This is just my humble opinion so take it just as that. 

I owned a PL Dialogue HP Integrated.  That was their "high power" offering that could run 8 KT150s.  The build quality is excellent.  Parts quality is very very good.  Compared to many of the legacy brands (you fill in the blank), it's really a higher quality build.  It's very hard to beat a PL at its price point for reliability, durability, feature set, etc.  

I feel almost dirty offering any criticism of their amps because I think they changed the market--for the better. 

I modified my amp by going after all of the film caps. They were of decent quality, but not as good as other caps that I have heard and worked with (VCap, Clarity Cap, Audyn, etc.).  My mission was to add a little nuance and finesse to that beast of an amp.  And yes, I tube rolled to my heart's content and bank account's dismay.  [As I no longer own the PL, I'm sitting on a stockpile of 12au7s--the amp took 6)].  

The biggest hurdle in modifications of a PL is space.  This is a busy amp inside that chassis. It's packed in there. 

I was definitely able to change the sound slightly more to my liking--adding more clarity and air on top, and fleshing out the bass a bit more.  I really couldn't seem to get the midrange to make me smile.  Overall, a wonderful amp and tweaked it was more so. 

PL uses a good hunk of PCBs for discrete purposes--auto bias, some sort of protection circuit, etc. There is a good bit of point to point wiring inside and it was executed perfectly.  I nerd out on well assembled gear and it certainly fit the bill. 

There are a handful of recommendations for Line Magnetic above.  I own a Willsenton R800 805 amp, which is likely built in the same factory as Line Magnetic.  For $2800 shipped to my door in 96 hours, including fees/customs, etc., it's an amazing buy.  Here's what you get (for good or bad, mostly great): 

• A 100lb beast.  Anyone who says this is cheap product hasn't lifted, touched, or looked inside--albeit, a 100lb amp is also a downside to me! 
• 48 watts of pure Class A single ended topology.  To hear midrange like this is divine. 
• Tube compliment gives you great options with rolling but makes it expensive:  805 power tubes, 300bs, 6sn7s, and one 12ax7.  
• Dead quiet. Decent remote, but not feature packed, which is what I prefer.  

If you're on the fence about where to land next, I'd see if you could pick one of these up used for say $1800 - $2200/. This is a statement amp.  I, along with others smarter, think it will be difficult for Willsenton to make money in the long run as even with less expensive labor costs this amp is not inexpensive to make regardless of where it is made. If you could find a used Line Magnetic of the same topology that would be a great find too. 

I also own an Elekit 300B, maxed out with Lundhaul transformers, high end caps, and resistors.  It's very clear sounding. I just need a little more wattage for headroom than a 300B can provide. Nice amp. No remote, which is tough for me. 

Great thread and comments.  I love when I listen/read and learn here, without the negativity.  Keep 'em coming!

In my experience, there is a spacious dimensionality in high-quality tube amps that I never quite hear in SS amps of the same caliber / price range.  Texture and tone, particularly in acoustic and wood instruments. Also, the assured warmth without loss of lucid definition. And today's good tubes don't suffer from labels such as "slow," "tubey" or from any background hiss. Certainly, SS is easier to manage at all the points we all know... I went from British SS amps to tube amps a while back, and it's hard to go back.  But I'm always listening for good SS as well... Recommendations?

@gregjacob There are class D amps now that fit that bill.

https://www.manley.com/hifi/mahi

EL84 based mono blocks.  Sweet, quick and dynamic.  There is a pair at bigearstereo.com for not much.  4K used.  Best of luck with your search.

It’s a great amp & built like a tank. Enjoy !! 
 

Thank you  Roger Gibboni for your excellent work. 

@jonwolfpell Just fired up the Rogers High Fidelity EHF-200 MK2. 

WOW. And THANK YOU! You can get some sleep now:)

Out of the gate I installed some NOS Telefunken EF86 tubes (Roger said don't waste money on expensive 12AX7s so I didn't). So I expect the sound to get even better. But the head room is pretty much unlimited now.

OP,

I completely agree. The musical nuance you get with good quality tube amplification is hard to meet with solid state. Once I went to tube amplification there was no going back.

atmasphere

In my experience, there is a spacious dimensionality in high-quality tube amps that I never quite hear in SS amps of the same caliber / price range.  Texture and tone, particularly in acoustic and wood instruments. Also, the assured warmth without loss of lucid definition. And today's good tubes don't suffer from labels such as "slow," "tubey" or from any background hiss. Certainly, SS is easier to manage at all the points we all know... I went from British SS amps to tube amps a while back, and it's hard to go back.  But I'm always listening for good SS as well... Recommendations?

@gregjacob 

Does it have to be tube if it sounds just as smooth and detailed as a good tube amplifier??

The amp puts out quite a bit of heat any any 100 watt, fully class A amp does & especially tubes. Ensure it has plenty of breathing room. I e also noticed it takes at least an hour or so warming it up to sound its best. Best of luck . It’s a great piece!

@jonwolfpell will do - Harbeth 30.2XD (85 dB) and 2 REL T/9x.

Going from 30wpc to over 100 should be fun. I should have it by May 11

Hilarious!!! I love mine! Please let me know. It's build quality is top notch & sounds excellent w/ lots of power. What speakers are you driving?

@jonwolfpell 

Rogers High Fidelity on their website has a pre - owned EHF 200 Mark II Integrated amp w/ full lifetime warranty!

I bought it this morning - pretty stoked. I'll either be thanking you or cursing you next week😆.

@gregjacob

Simple, go for the " LTA Ultralinear+" as you originally intended - it's still a top option.  Scratch that itch "Finally", it's not in stone after all.  Get that "Maybe" out of your head so simply try it out yourself now that you have the opportunity, more so if there's a possibility of "regret".  You can simply easily sell it for something else if unsatisfied. 

Hi,

There are several very good options, but try to find a used preamp/power mono amps by Quicksilver, I cannot think of a better value.

Good luck

So many options out there...  

I ended up with the Rogers Hi Fidelity integrated for way under $6K !!!  It's a SET AMP, Class A, can replace between KT88 and EL34's auto bias.  Low power though, like no more than 10 wpc...  My other choice would have been something from Cayin or Line Magnetic but decided to go with something made in the USA.  Lately, Vincent (hybrid)  has been getting great reviews too.  GOOD LUCK !!!

@pindac good post, very much agree.

As 845's are regularly being discussed. I will add a recollection of a conversation had with the designer/builder who I have developed a friendship with that is now close to 30 years when first meeting. Approx' 20 years ago, at the time of selecting the second Valve Design to be pursued, the following was touched on as a forewarning.

" The Voltages being dealt with are 1200V, this type of Voltage demands a lot of respect, and the use of and the placing of the Amp's will need careful consideration". I am the guardian the Amp's when in use, and will be quite strong about what can/can't happen in the room they are used. Children are now grown up, and now the Grandchildren are inquisitive as well as playful and can easily make a mistake in the company of such a fragile device.   

" If this is the Tube to be used, the Chassis will need to be a certain dimension for thermal control, as a lot of heat is being generated." My Power Amp's Monoblock Output Chassis dimensions are 20" x 20" x 8" (500mm x 500mm x 200mm). The Power Supplies Chassis are close to the above dimensions. The Output Modules seated at a height of 20" from the floor and are in free space with the closest material being a wall at 1' ft away, the next closest material is 2' ft from the Amp's. 

The methods chosen above have never deterred me in any way, it is part of the discipline developed to express a 'vigilant attitude' to making sure others are aware of the fragility of the Tubes and the need for keeping the 'Tubes intact'. The other requirement has been the need to maintain being 'observant' of the Tubes when 'powered on' and 'in use'. 

I have stated in the past and see no reason to change the approach, Tubes are great to experience in their various uses. I have Valve Phon's, Valve DAC, Valve Pre', Valve Power Amp's, the usage suits all my needs for sound quality.

The user of Tubes are in possession of a device that is for the best, when powered on 'not forgotten', observation of the device with tubes whilst being used and after a period of power off, is a good discipline to cultivate.

I ended up with an Allnic T2000 30th anniversary which is above your budget but really good.  I was considering the Willsenton R800i 300b 845 which appears to be a fairly good value and solid option for a 2nd system.  Might be an option to the Line Magnetic 845.

BTW, have you heard the Line Magnetic 845 Premium model?

No one in this thread mentioned McGary either...

neptune123

Thanks so much!  Yes, it's pretty overwhelming, and boy, I didn't expect so much advice! You have touched on the essence of this thread:  exploring significant, worthwhile improvements in our already-good listening.  I have been making a "short list" of tube amps as the thread has lengthened (and digressed a few times). I will put Line Magnetic on there as well.  At this point, it isn't if I will change but when, what, and for how much money! Much appreciated. 👍

Greg - You've certainly attracted a lot of good advice. Ha...maybe too much advice. For my two-cents worth, I owned the top of the line Prima Luna and did lots of tube rolling and such. Loved it for two years. But last year I heard and purchased a Line Magnetic 845ia and the "wow factor," as you put it earlier, took a huge leap up/forward - improved presence, body, speed, sound stage, more natural instrument tone, the whole schmear...and all non-fatiguing. My speakers are Forte IVs. As an aside, two weeks ago I added a Border Patrol DAC and my entire system improved yet again. Crazy, and I thought I had reached the promised land.

I am not a EE, I have covered many threads on build projects and in numerous seen threads, there will always be a broadened discussion over circuit design and the used topology.

The OP @gregjacob stated " I wanted to see if there were any group suggestions for an integrated tube amp or tube / solid-state combo under 10k or, even better, under 6k. Still looking for my final purchase in this part of my system. 

Thanks everyone. "

My notifying the OP was in keeping with their request and was informing that it was not necessary to use the whole of their allocated budget, my suggestion has shown this.

The individual who supplied the R8 for demonstration, owns a Audio Company and has a customer base that has a selection of Customers who are quite content with spending 20-30 x the cost of the R8 on amplification. The idea of the R8 making such a good impression on this individual when adorned with Upgrade Tubes, supports the notion that a attractive Tube experience can be had for too much monies. 

For those that have an experience of the KB1, it will soon be learned that it has a transparency that few Pre-Amp's are capable of, when added to a Tube Power Amp', for this reason the KB1 design has proven to be a welcome addition.

I have been demo'd a few guises of the KB1, as well as having a Bespoke Built KB1 demo'd in my system and have had a long-term loaned basic build design KB1 hooked up to my Bespoke Built PP 845's. This marriage has superseded owned Valve Pre's and a AVC. The impression made has resulted in my having a Bespoke Built Balanced design KB1 produced at present as my Pre-Amp of choice. 

One of the above KB1 owners had a Loan of a Bespoke Built KB1 at the time they were having demo's of Pre Amp's to be used with EAR Power Amp's, approx' £20000 of Pre-Amp's were home demo'd of which one was a EAR 868 and retailing at £5000. The Pre-Amp options were not limited to a Budget, the KB1 won the system owners favour, and a Bespoke Built KB1 is used in the system. 

Note: The KB1 does not do full bodied/lush as a presentation.

@pindac The R8 with Tube Upgrades (If desired) and Pass KB1 Pre-Amp’ (If of Interest) should not drift to far over...

What about the design of the Wilsenton R8 amplifier would require someone to consider adding a Korg B1 preamp layer on top of it, and why?

-----

R8: Noticed folks in Australia on the stereonet forum adding Rothwell RCA inline passive attenuators for source inputs -and- AK members discussing adding thermistors used to reduce inrush current on the R8. Why? Due to design issues -or- fixed in later versions of the R8? Definitely worth researching more before jumping in, imo.

I do not see in any Posts where the Willsenton R8 is a suggestion, this is a model that might just meet the OP's needs, and leave quite a large proportion of the Budget intact.

The Willsenton R8 has proved to be an Amp' that has got many customers left quite impressed. A member of the Local HiFi Group has demonstrated their one as a Base Model and with a Tube Upgrade. The system it has been demonstrated is a very familiar system to all Group Members where EAR Power Amplification > Quad 2912's are the resident devices.

The R8 has impressed and eventually thoroughly impressed the attendees at the demo'.

There has been the suggestion that by adding a Pass KB1 Pre-Amp', even more of a positive impression might follow.

The R8 with Tube Upgrades (If desired) and Pass KB1 Pre-Amp' (If of Interest) should not drift to far over $2000 as a combined purchase.

Ayon tube amps are amazing. Great sound, extremely reliable and they look badass!

@iopscrl 

Nice post!

You mentioned the Triode Labs (Japan) 845 SET. That’s a wonderful recommendation. I’ve heard their 845 PSET mono blocks several times. I was duly impressed with its excellent sound quality and built. Very high quality unit.

Charles

@decooney I didn’t see @jchiappinelli ’s comment. thanks for answering for me. Yes, there are a lot of circuit bords inside this amp and in my opinion, it doesn’t sound like a cleanly wired simple point to point. A lot of that is probably the push/pull design. Yes, PL claims the important parts are point to point. My amp is all point to point.

I have a friend who has taken a couple of simple PC based amps and rewired them to point to point with good success. PL would be pretty complicated for that. it has a lot of features that would be hard to integrate into a PTP. So when you want all those features, you may have to compromise. I first looked at PL when I was looking for an amp with an HT bypass and PL is one of the few tube amps with this feature. I figured out how to make it happen.

Primaluna and Kevin Deal have a large fan club and my negative opinion is not going to change anyone’s mind. I’m glad so many people like them. I’ll fight to the death for the right to their opinion (all those folks who disagree with me). Finally, I’ll quote Henry Ford, "whenever 2 people always agree, one of them is unnecessary."

I don’t think my opinions are valued enough that I’m influencing people.

Jerry

@iopscrl ...Cary CAD 805 (there have been several versions of this classic design over the years). For some this is a benchmark Class A SET amp. Others believe it is not accurate to some degree. Listen and decide for yourself.

@iopscrl Speaking of 805s, Did you by chance listen to or review the newer 805RS version, and compare to anything?

----------------

After my Cary SLI-80 and Cary V12R (both heavily upgraded), I was not in a position to buy the 805RS (or the room) and landed on Quicksilver Mono 120s, now with upgrades, same caps and others as my former Cary amps had. Sound very nice now, plenty of drive with KT120s or KT150s. PP purpose built for KT150s. Big quality transformers, power caps, 600v plate voltage. Driving the tubes "in the window" as I know it now. And, tried a few DH custom Inspire amps between. Not enough drive for my larger custom speakers. Maybe going back to full triode though, with a little more power/drive, maybe. Thought you might know this looking at the collection of amps you’ve commented on here so far.

Since I still have and enjoy using my later my Cary SLP-98 preamp w/6SN7s, still kind of thinking about parting with the M120s down the road to help fund it some (deciding later this yer, not sure I will - can’t get them any more) yet possibly ordering the 805RS monos. 845s or 211s, not sure which. Damn things are 24" deep though. i.e. not referring to the older version 805s, just the new model, if you happen to know more. These -or- I may commission a good designer-builder to custom build some with some other (more available) opts, not 211s or 845s. Thx.

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649960743-vac-sigma-170i-iq-integrated-amplifier-silver-phono-and-xlr-options-nib/

Line Magnetic was mentioned, along with Leben, and Luxman.

The benefit of a $6k budget is a wide selection of available choices.

I would listen to as many amplifiers as possible.  I would purchase used equipment, because I know I could resell for my cost (or at a small profit) if needed.

I would start with a Line Magnetic or Triode TRV 845  Class A SET amp.  Then move on to EL34 and KT88 amps from the same companies.   I have a Triode TRV 845 PSE.   Sublime sound, and rock steady reliability since I purchased the amp about 5.5 yrs ago.

Cary CAD 805 (there have been several versions of this classic design over the years).  For some this is a benchmark Class A SET amp.  Others believe it is not accurate to some degree.  Listen and decide for yourself.

In my opinion, Leben is the equivalent of a golden age amplifier that is completely restored using new close tolerance and higher quality parts.   A mix of classic and modern sound.

There are several Audio Research and Conrad Johnson amplifiers that sound wonderful and are easily found.   I regret selling a CJ MV45 and I have an AR D-70-MKII.

Luxman MQ88 has been praised by everyone that has heard it.  I use a pr of MA88 / 75th anniversary mono blocks.   So relaxing and incisive to listen to.

You may also investigate vintage amplifiers.   Caveat is to be sure that the amp is completely rebuilt, not just restored with a mix of old and new parts.  REBUILT.  Some believe this may reduce value.  I would rather have reliability and great sound....  Some may disagree.

The elephant in the vintage room is McIntosh.  Many will immediately recommend the MC275.  Good amp, but not their best.   If you want better sonics, then spend time with a pr of MC30 or a MC240.  The MC225 sounds wonderful, but may not be powerful enough for your needs.

Some would recommend a Marantz 8b, which is an easy default recommendation.  But I think the Mac 30/240 sound better.

Eico HF89 is a powerhouse of a KT88 stereo amp with a very wide frequency response.

Fisher SA-1000 / EL34 Integrated amp and probably the best amplifier made by Fisher.   This is a "final" amp for a discerning few.

Harman Kardon Citation II.  You have probably read about this amp.  Everything you have read is true.  Tube magic, and SS power. Capable of driving any load and delivers an ultra Wide Bandwidth, dead quiet background, brick house reliability if correctly rebuilt.  This amp would cost at least $10k if remade today; and likely more than $10k in the current market.

Lots of choices.  Potential for lots of fun.  Spend the summer acquiring a few amps, then enjoy the colder months by listening at your leisure while you watch the little cities of tubes glow in the twilight.

If you search, there are some good threads on modding a PL. I think they are pre-Evo but may still apply to Evo. 

To continue to beat a dead horse though, I really don't think the supplied PL tubes are all that great - but ok.. I'm thinking that they expect most (?) will roll thier tubes anyway. 

I did a lot of searches here and on google as well as the reviews on Upscale and also with Brent Jesse (and purchased from him also). 

I'm still a bit of a newbie (but not new) and I would start with the music you like and what you prioritze in SQ and go from there. 

I chose KT-150s for the extra low end but also to my ears sound good throughout the spectrum. However, (better quality) E34s are better in the midrange (sweet) and there are a bunch of others. 

That said, I would start with the preamp tubes up front. I have Radiotechniques (sp) up in the two main slot and prefer them over NOS Mullards and Mazda Clittes. The Mullards were too bright in the upper mids and the Mazdas a bit too much treble IIRC. I have the Mazdas flanking the Radios on each side. Also, you have double the power tubes than I do ($).

My Evo 300 Int sounds a lot better to my ears than the stock tubes. 

I heard my same speakers at a hifi show with a $20k tube amp. While the mids were slightly more clear, the highs and lows weren't any better and certainly not worth the $15k difference - again to my ears. My sound stage is better also but with all of this I'm trying to take into account that was a motel room with no treatment. It did sound fantastic, but not any better than mine (again, except more clear mids, but not $15k clear).

Anyway, I'd start reading some of the comments and threads and also call Upscale and email Brent Jesse.

@jchiappinelli Carlsbad2, Why do you keep mis-informing that Prima luna relies on printed circuit boards when they are clearly point-to-point hand wired? It’s one of their primary marketing pitches and clearly supported by photos of the insides of their components.

----------------------------------

INSIDE VIEW - PL EVO 400 Integrated

This could be what @carlsbad2 is referring to. Does not make it wrong, yet I’m counting at least 8 different little circuit boards inside, this pic is right off the Primaluna site, today. Typically a true point-to-pont wired component does not have any circuit boards, or at least no boards in the signal path.

Would be fun to hear from some of the modifier/upgrade folks who know how to truly tweak this amp up more, and bring it to an entirely new level. Someone knows...

Well, Lampizator sells their own amps... ($14k-18K per component and up) and probably recommends amps well beyond the given budget.

Ayon, Audiomat (I'm slightly biased owner of Audiomat), Audio Research and Octave. I owned or listened extensively those. Chose model appropriate for your speakers and room, with which I am not familiar with. 
Lampizator Atlantic (well, anything from them) is one of the best out there. Very quiet. High sensitivity speakers still need some power to keep the system as quiet. It would be a mortal sin to ruin that quietness of your DAC. Class A vs AB vs hybD, SET vs PP or integrated vs pre/power combo - all that pales in comparison of importance to match amp's output to your speakers, and your source to the preamp/integrated input.
It appears you have a good info from speaker manufacturer; why don't you ask Lampizator people?

Oh, for a demo where 8-10 highly touted tube amps between $4k -$10 were placed in a single room with reasonable acoustics, well-rated DAC, revealing speakers, and tubes recommended by creator / manufacturer for the event. We could listen and opine and choose!

I'll add that we must blind test them before revealing the brand or model. 😎

@auroravengeance It’s amazing we got 2 pages of replies without someone recommending either a Lab12, Line Magnetic, or Leben.

Take a closer read. I and another poster suggested Line Magnetic amplifiers. Truth is that their are numerous excellent choices in the OP’s given budget range. Folks have posted many fine amplifier options. I don’t know how one could declare any specific one of them unequivocally as the “best” amplifier.

Charles

J.Chip,

You are right, and I agree that, for some reason, a few have treated the PL like it was a printed board, cheaply designed amp.  I chose it for its great reputation, reviews, user following, and quality build. That's why exploring other sounds/amps isn't something I would do based on deep dissatisfaction. As I wrote earlier in this thread, my queries have been to explore positively what else lies beyond the PL level and budget, just curious if I could find other tube amps that might further enhance my setup and musical tastes.  

The prima Luna is somewhat hand wired, but I wouldn't call true point to point wired, it seems to have a few circuit boards. True point to point wiring has the components around the tube sockets in almost a star pattern. 

Carlsbad2,

Why do you keep mis-informing that Prima luna relies on printed circuit boards when they are clearly point-to-point hand wired? It's one of their primary marketing pitches and clearly supported by photos of the insides of their components.

J.Chip

gkr7007

Thanks for the thoughts.  I think the issue is not having a clue what tubes would add a significant improvement. If tubes were, say, $10 each, I could burn through all kinds of configurations and have fun exploring the sound variations.  I did read a blurb by the Lampi designer stating that many tubes sounded great in the Atlantic--a very all-encompassing but noncommitted statement. In forums, others have said they couldn't find any tubes radically better than those chosen to be issued from factory. But I haven't found anything that has expressed replacing "a" with exactly "b" will render a whole new world of music.  In reviews by mag writers, several noted that they changed out the tubes but returned to the originals and found them more balanced. So it doesn't inspire confidence to tube roll. If anything, particularly in the PL case, it makes one want to a/b the entire unit with others... I'll end this by saying it does make a lot of sense as the tube influences the sound so much.

OP

If you haven't rolled some different tubes, especially in the Atlantic, you should.  There's so much more waiting for you when changing out the stock supplied tubes.  As for the PrimaLuna, I have no experience in tube rolling with that but almost invariably you have a whole lot of positive change going to some NOS compared to current production stock supplied tubes.

It's amazing we got 2 pages of replies without someone recommending either a Lab12, Line Magnetic, or Leben.

The Lab12 Integre4 MK2 is as good as the review says and is my next amp purchase. IMO probably is the best amp purchase below $10K and even beyond. Very musical with no compromise in PRAT. 

Leben CS600 is a stalwart and gives a perhaps a more romantic presentation. The waiting list for this is very long though unless you can get it used.