This is really tough. No one has them in-stock. All special order. The key is finding the right feature set and read some reviews. In that range, it is tough for something to go horribly wrong. It is not like you are going to get an ARC, VAC or AVM preamp and you are going to say, my god, this is crap.
The critical thing is make sure that it is compatible in advance with your power amp. Biggest issue is going to be an output impedance and/or gain mismatch. After that, rely on the house sound and favorable reviews.
This is part of the reason I am such a big fan of AVM. The flexibility to tweak the preamp with different cards and to adjust the output makes it much more flexible than most.
One option might be at least see if you can get store credit back if you really hate it. There are usually restrictions. You will be stuck with what that retailer sells, usually restocking fees, etc... But it is better than losing 50%+ on a device you want to resell that you hate. I customize those things based on the order.
I agree. It is hard. What I did, was to start from my general experience of preamps and amps. Products I know. Do I like tubes better than solid state? Yes. Do I like OTL? Yes. Should it be truly balanced? Yes. And so on. Plus, a good match both with the amp(s) and the source components, especially the phono stage, in my system.
Ok, so you're going to apply the remaining 2 channels solely to audio. Any reason you wouldn't have the McIntosh tube preamps at the top of your short list?
Noooo, 1 channel ctr and 2 mains. Means more watts avail for mains since its a 5 channel amp. Mac dont have a high end linestage, includes phonostage. A flaw in their prod offerings
Mcintosh C500, C1000T C2500, 2600,2700, C22 (C) (R) Cary 98 series Cary SP 05 series
All are valve and excellent pre amps.. All come with a Phono stage. Cary has an option to have a PS or not, Mac doesn't, they have a MM and MC phono stage onboard.
Kind of vague in what you want.. You didn't say anything about what you didn't like or did. 10.00 to 25,000? Or do you have a budget?
The AVM PA 8.3 - Seriously. With a tube output stage, two sets of RCA & XLR inputs with tone control and the phono stage is $23K. Add in SS output stage for a subwoofer and it comes in right at $25K.
This is truly a world class preamp. It is unbelievably quiet. Neutral to warm and AVM delivers a massive soundstage. I have had the flagship monos that go with this here and they easily could be mistaken for VAC or VTL gear, just 1100 watts. It is worthy of the price.
Know that Udo (the owner of AVM) was at Burmester for a long time and has an incredible track record.
S.A.Lab builds all the transformers in house. Separate power supply. Remote. 3 outputs. Balanced and single-ended connection support. Bypass input for your home theater. Available in any real Ferrari paint finish you like. It's great.
It is very hard. Even before supply line problems ala Covid, it was hard to make comparisons "in store" without other variables-room, associated equipment in play, etc. Ideally, you’d want the ability to hear the unit in your system. I did have a dealer when I lived in metro NY who would do house calls-- in fact, I had never been to his shop until years later, and then, more for a social visit. At one point, he brought over a Veloce (now out of business) line stage (first version), which didn’t have quite the grainlessness of my then Lamm L2 Reference. I did like the frequency extension. Within about a year, there was a new version of the Veloce which he brought over- the one using the 6h30. Plugged that in, and viola! A whole new musical ball game. I said-- can I just keep this one? Nah, but one for me was built and delivered pretty quickly, along with a matched quad of the elusive DR Reflecktor tube (extra). Sadly, the company is now dormant but Vytas did the latest upgrade a few years ago, different batteries, etc. Currently running a fresh quad of the DR tube circa 1977. That tube is not easy to find now. I was a long time ARC guy going back to the early days of Wm Z. I kinda stopped with them when they went through their "white" period-- a bleached, more analytical sound. (I think they’ve swung back to richer sound- at least the Reference stuff I’ve heard didn’t sound as "bleached"). My last ARC preamp was the SP10mkii. Great preamp, too noisy for my horns, and you could go crazy on tubes-- it tended toward microphony too so you really had to select tubes for the phono section that played nicely. (I think there were a total of 15 tubes in the unit). I think there is some benefit to buying something you could resell at a later point- I don’t know how VAC sounds these days- and if you were looking for built in phono, that might be a good route. Ditto, Ken Stevens Convergent Audio Technologies- again, it’s been a long while since I’ve heard one, but he’s been improving and improving. Both brands are well respected and probably deserve a listen. I’m sure everybody has a favorite, but the only way to know is to hear ’em. And sadly, even if you took a road trip to two different cities that were rich with audio salons, made the necessary appointments in advance and were given the opportunity to do some comparisons among the dealer’s wares, it’s still not your system. But, short of finding a dealer willing to loan out a demo (you’ll probably be asked to pay for it in full and cover shipping and insurance both ways), it may still be worth that road trip. Better than buying blind (or deaf), eh?
Come on! First decide on what type of tube sound you like 6SN7, 6922/6DJ8, DHT, etc. then look at the construction tube regulation, tube rectification, choke loaded, transformer coupled, etc. If you don't know this then you will be at it for a long time. What is in the power supply, transformers, brand of caps & resistors, etc. Point-to-point wired? Is the PS supply separate?
In my experience, tube preamps definitely sound better than solid state preamps and the circuits based on 6SN7 sound better than those based on 12 pin miniatures. I won’t mention any brand names because I’ve discovered that, when I do, my comments aren’t posted/ published. I have been blown away recently by a particular preamplifier circuit using the 6SN7.
Ear Yoshino 912 (12k) Ear Yoshino 868 pl (6,5k) , VAC signature MK2 se ( 19k) , Audio research ref.5se I (13k), DarTZeel NHB-18NS ( 23k): with one of them : you are in the clouds !
Fully loaded Atma Sphere MP-1 with all options is what you need. Ear Yoshino 912 would be my second choice. I've had it both in my system in direct comparaison.
You have to make a strong decision: Do you want to run a tube preamp only because tubes are en vogue? Do you like clinical highs drawn with a scalpel? Then you should look for a "modern" preamp, e.g. AR (with the terrible 6H-30 "wondertubes"), BAT or similar stuff. Get yourself 10K from the bank and start your shopping tour. Or are you after that liquid, airy, naturally swinging sound that seems having been buried through the decades? Then the AR LS5, SP6, SP8 and LS7 as well as Conrad Johnson PV12 and Classic are the choice. Change (or let change) some capacitors thoughtfully and enjoy that airy, blooming sound that is so hunky-dory for years. So the journey is not a matter of money but a matter of listening ability. Make a wise decision...
You don’t mention your equipment (if you are spending that kind of $ on a preamp then I am sure it’s good), is it out of the question to get a preamp from the same brand as your amp(s)? There is a lot to be said for house sound synergy … and you know they will play nice with each other.
@janpro- As a consumer of the 6h30 I have to agree that the current production tubes do not sound good. Those old DR Reflectors though, at least in my line stage, are as good as any tube I've heard in my system.
@ whart: Yes- but not as a reasonable price. You have to pay a month's wage- with no chance for tube rolling. So I stick to my (modified) AR LS7- but if one day An SP8 comes around the corner...
My favourite tube for preamps is still the 6DJ8/ECC88 or the 7DJ8/PCC88 I use instead. I have got various brands and know what's best for any purpose. This type of tube will not let you down.
The best tube preamp is no tubes. If any of you had actually worked on tube electronics when they were the only choice you wouldn't even consider them. In the Navy I worked on a wide range of tube electronics all built to mil-specs. First, a very high failure rate, heat is hell on electronics. Second, extremely difficult to achieve linearity over even the limited audio spectrum in pure class A. That warm sound you hear is the harmonics being rolled off. Feed it a square wave or triangular wave and its lack of linearity becomes obvious. Leading and trailing edges have overshoots and round off. I remember how even multi-thousand dollar Tektronix O'Scopes with extremely wide bandwidth and everything high precision in every circuit could struggle to reproduce these signals.
Everyone here is looking with a microscope for the last tiny bit of performance improvement spending untold sums on wires, connectors, speakers, turntables, etc. and then they introduce all the non-linear components into the mix with tube pre-amps, tube amps, turntables that add wow & flutter and more distortion into their systems.
Granted, some people like certain distortions to their sound but then just acknowledge that you just need to pick the components that introduce the distortion you like and you are not seeking high fidelity. That is fine, if that is your preference, just don't call it high fidelity because it isn't. The military moved away from vacuum tubes as fast as they could because when accuracy and reliability count, tubes don't cut it.
Companies like Fender liked tubes because guitar players liked adding distortion to their playing and tubes provided a more pleasing distortion for musicians that wanted a unique signature to their sound. They even added settings to select your distortion.
I contradict. If voltage amplification is the job, there is nothing better that tubes. That is why a good tube preamp has more dynamics in the midrange that offers more realistic sound. The ping-ping highs of a transistorized pre may distract from this focus- but that range is where it's all about! In the end theoretical advantages are not helpful.
The "BEST" pre-amp is the one that sounds the best TO YOU in your system IN YOUR ROOM, period.
If you have a good dealer, he or she will loan you as many as you like until you make a decision.
Personally, it is my belief that the company most praised for its pre-amps over the last 40 years or so is Audio Research Corporation. You might want to try a few of theirs to see if one of them works for YOU.
If not, there are some others that also have good reputations. In the end, the one that most pleases YOU IN YOUR ROOM is the one to buy.
Although it seems that you’re getting a kick out of posting a seemingly ridiculous proposition...I’ll play.
At least figure out the basics as listed above several times. Then pick three brands and find a store in a big city that can demo all three. Fly to said city and make your choice. Simple.
If the $25k is a real number and you can’t make up your mind in 24 hours(!) then just go buy a name brand $25k preamp and sell it when you actually do make up your mind.
In my experience bigger triode tubes are best- DHT preamps are on a higher level although not many available options are it there. I’ve heard the LTA preamps and they are also amazing. The other outstanding preamp I’ve heard i by Pass labs, then there is Shindo, EAR, Audio Note. Then there is ARC, and more and more
+1 for Atma-Sphere MP-1 fully loaded. It is about $28K but about the best for vinyl. The phono stage is not merely an add on but takes up half the preamp-8 of 18 tunes (12AT7s and 6SN7s). And be sure to roll the AT7s for NOS!
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
