Streamer apps critical

Absolutely.  The app frequently defines the experience.  I used to have a Bryston BDP-3 but ditched it due to the terrible software web based program it relied upon

You're right , Bluesound is a great platform .  Cyrus is using it in their XR and 40 series streamers.    

Roon

It's true. I own Aurender, and they have a great app. But a number of my friends have bought other streamers, some over $10K and they have very poor apps. 

Having been in software development for much of my life I can attest to the fact that programmers do not naturally gravitate towards user friendly applications and interface software development is not usually a core strength of a company that produces hardware. 

So, all in all, not surprising. 

Even Aurender, who I really like and are very customer friendly struggled for many months during the most recent upgrade. Fortunately the end product is good now and getting better. 

For me, Roon was an easy choice to bring my current streamer and all future streamers into the same excellent user interface. I know the price seems high at first, but if you think about it, a lot of people spend the amount of the lifetime Roon license cost on stuff like cables or tweaks. This is what you actually interface with while browsing your music, that's a critical thing to get right!

Prior to Roon I owned multiple streaming players or music servers with what I'd call half-baked UI designs. I don't care how great the sound is, if interacting with it feels like a chore, that's a no from me. Might as well go back to vinyl at that point.

Roon is garbage. In my experience. 

Not surprising, +1 what @ghdprentice  stated. Roon and the other music player app firms likely expend far more resources on software development vs the streamer manufacturers with their native apps.

As for sound quality, Roon and other independents have to work with virtually all streamers, variability in sound quality is a result. Generally speaking Roon and the others with sophisticated interfaces will require more processor resources so low latency important for best sound quality.

What is freaky is that a relatively young startup, WiiM, came out of nowhere with a cheap streamer ($99) and over a few months, listening to user feedback, developed their software to the point that it is even better than BlueOS or at least very comparable.

I don’t get it. How did they do that? And if they have such a great, easy to use software that doesn’t flake out very often, the sky seems to be the limit with putting it on ever more capable streamers.

Their $329 Ultra is said to be very good, about like a Bluesound Nano in sound quality, which is better than the original Node significantly.

Either they have their eyes on continuing to go up market with their devices, or be content selling tons of them to those without deep pockets.

Even so, they and more upscale steamer companies would do well to ask about licensing their software.

I could only imagine something really, really good in the $1000 to $2000 range running WiiM’s software. On the other hand, how about a super streamer only with a great onboard clock circuit, a quality LPS, and no DAC, having I2S, USB, Coax, and Optical outputs so we could buy our own DAC?

Bottom line for many is that a difficult to use device won’t get used much and will be a source of frustration instead of listening pleasure. As important as hardware is, software and the user experience is foremost to many.

In my hobby of amateur astronomy, I’m reminded of people who bought honking big telescopes and only get them out maybe four times a year because they are too hard to use, while someone else gets a modest "grab and go" telescope and uses it a few times every week.

@moonwatcher 

Yes the WiiM units are quite good via the app. Even using their B06 unit with the Plex app is a joy to use.

Works great

Sounds good

Low cost

Whats not to like?

Software developers don’t gravitate to gui interfaces? Huh? Who writes this stuff but developers? I started as a developer in the mid 70’s and developers throughout the decades wrote user friendly interfaces for their users/clients, even if it was a green screen from the 70’s. You never wanted to make it difficult for the end user to use your app.

The older aurender software sucked compared to Auralic lightning ds software or lumin’s software, which I used both. The older pure music and the 1st generation of audirvana were much better than aurender.

Now, roon is the best, with the new audirvana closing in. 
IMO, the reason you don’t have good roon equivalent software out there is because software developers aren’t cheap to hire and keep on the payroll. Decent software developers aren’t cheap, probably $150-$200k a year with benefits. It’s cheaper for the manufacturer to make their system roon ready and let roon deal with the developer headaches 

@moonwatcher 

The skill difference among software developers is huge. There are individuals and organizations that couldn't program a simple calculator in six months, and some that could do it almost before you finished describing what you want. 

I to have been disappointed several times trying to "upgrade" my streaming device. I'm also a Bluesound Node (130 version) user. I've come back to the Node 3 times after trying a Eversolo DMP-A6, Lumin U2, and then a Cary Audio DMS-700. In every case, they unambiguously sounded better to some degree, but the app was so bad it negated any improvement in sound quality - sometimes within minutes of use. I'm planning one more try and looking heavily at an Innuos Pulse or possibly Pulsar. Their app seems to have a great reputation. For me, usability of a streaming app will always be priority #1.

I have used the Innuos Sense app since it was first released, and it is the best streamer software available that balances sound quality with ease of use. Innuos upgrades Sense frequently and adds features that have been requested by users, while continuing to emphasize optimization of sound quality. Roon may have a more comprehensive set of music management features, but it uses more computer resources to accomplish that task and tries too hard to be "do everything" software that is not optimized for any single hardware system.  

The cost of Roon is high as are the hardware requirements. I'm a chemistry not an IT pro. I don't want to deal with Roon, nor does it seem to play nice with everything. The mfg will spend like crazy on milled aluminum  chassis an 10 inch LcdScreens but won't spend the money on software 

Eversolo App isn't bad but their support is non existent.  If a FW updates is bad there is no recourse other than rolling back FW which is a pain and then turning off auto update.   Now you are stuck at that level until there is a fix.  6 months with no resolve is absolutely unacceptable 

Aurender is the other end of the spectrum all together.  Almost concierge level support.   Auralic and Innuos also have real support , not a forum of enthusiasts for help.  

Agree that’s been my experience.  I was staying with my Node because of the BluOs operating system which worked for me streaming Qobuz with my iPad.  I didn’t like Roon or some other ops I tried even though the streamer was better.  I found the Innuos Sense app worked for me and the Zen Mk3 with my DAC sounded better.  Ease of use is key for me.  I suggest to my friends to find a streaming service and ops that works for them when they start streaming.  

+1 Aurender conductor app. Excellent!
Because of the amount of information provided, works best with a pad vs a phone. Repurposed an old iPad mini for exclusive use with my Aurender running Qobuz. 
Moved from blueOS to conductor with skipping a beat. Both great apps.

+1 on the importance of ui/software in a streamer.  I went from a Node to a miniDSP SHD with Volumio.  Hardware was fine but Volumio was a horrible experience.  I even stopped listening to music.  My wife actually encouraged me to buy a new streamer!  Now when was the last time your significant other encouraged you to buy a new audio toy?  Volumio was that bad.  Anyway, I reluctantly dumped the miniDSP and went back to a Node, but this time with an LPS, an external DAC, and fronted with an English 8 switch.  To my ears, the SQ is fine with this (low cost) setup.

I have a Bluesound Vault 2i in my second system and an Aurender N200 in my main system.  

Both have been great, the Aurender is 4x more money but the build quality and support are top notch.   The Vault has been pretty much flawless in the 6 years I've owned it.  

Bluesound is the best platform for those new to streaming in my opinion.   Hard to beat for the money.  

I just moved from a BlueSound Node2 with LHY Audio power board and a LPS to a WiiM Ultra.

I’ve always stated the BlueOS is one of the best out there. The WiiM is as good, maybe even a little better, plus the Ultra is a fantastic unit. I really do think it sounds better than the Node2 combo.

I used both units as head unit, (streamer) only, via COAX output to my tube DAC.

The Eversolo App is easy to use and reliable in my experience. I have a Will Pro in my bedroom system. I use Tidal connect with the WiiM because I like the Tidal app UI better, I use the Eversolo app with my A8.

I used an RPI running PiCore Player before the Eversolo. I listen more because the Eversolo app is such a pleasure to use.

My experience - YMMV.

My thoughts are the same as @oddiofyl .

I have the node N130 and the N200 and the Bluesound app is simply and easy to use.

I have a Bluesound Vault 2i in my second system and an Aurender N200 in my main system.  

Both have been great, the Aurender is 4x more money but the build quality and support are top notch.   The Vault has been pretty much flawless in the 6 years I've owned it.  

Bluesound is the best platform for those new to streaming in my opinion.   Hard to beat for the money.  

Sounds like Aurender should be the choice.

I use a Bluesound Node mainly because I am new to streaming, and you guys mention it in the past how good it was getting sound wise and app wise. I gave up on trying to find a decent priced used Cambridge Audio  streamer. I love the CD transport I have from them. 

Bluesound is awesome!I considered keeping a Node just for the interface.

• Moon’s MiND 2 is very good
• Tidal Connect is not to bad either

I enjoy Roon for the ‘liner notes’ type of data.

InnuOS Sense. Runs circles around any Roon setup in SQ without breaking a sweat. InnuOS also has Sean Jacobs power supplies, another best of kind.

I have been through Marantz with Heos, then Wiim Pro, Wiim Ultra,  and as great as the Wiims has been, sound and app wise,  the upgrade bug just wouldn’t go away. 

So I saw a good deal on a Cambridge EXN100 and tried it. When I unboxed it I was a bit discouraged by the feel of the unit,  it didn't feel much heavier than the Ultra, for like 5 times the price.

However,  as they say, the proof was in the pudding. The sound quality is a huge improvement and the app is as easy as Wiims. Simple, straight forward with no issues. It doesn't have Amazon music,  or all the eq features that Wiim has, but I can compensate for those. I could have got the lower model for less, but it was Christmas , and I am happy I did.

Absolutely.  The app frequently defines the experience.
 

Completely agree with this first comment. I wish the UI didn’t have such a significant impact while listening to music, but it somehow does - especially when it comes to the quality of results when either searching, discovering, or categorizing music.

In terms of SQ: I don’t question fellow members’ experiences when it comes to native apps and their uptick in SQ compared to Roon - I’ve experienced this with BluOS many years ago when compared to Roon and Tidal Connect, but dismissed such impressions since there was little discussion in the forums.

For me, I’ve found significant value in Roon’s portability across various streamers. If I purchase a new Roon Ready streamer I can be listening to music within minutes vs having to create an entirely new music library while learning a new UI.

Secondary to this would be Roon’s usage of “tags” that can help organize playlists, artists, and albums to either a specific genera or user created preference or mood (ex: Sunday Music). These types of tags have been a game changer, especially when discovering and collecting new music. Unsure if any other software allows this functionality?

Innuos Sense app and its UI and SQ have always piqued my interest. In light of this and because I’m not in the market for a new streamer, I have found improvements in Roon’s SQ by turning off as many features as possible to reduce its processing.

Like all things, compromises are at play when using Roon. I’m thinking it’s probably in my financial best interest NOT to listen to either Innuos or Aurender’s native apps.

My experience with the apps on the multiple streamers that I have owned or had a chance to borrow has been:

1. Streamers OWNED for multiple years (Auralic Aries and Aries Mini):  Auralic Lightning DS: very good; no complains

2. Streamer CURRENTLY OWNED (Eversolo DMP-A6):  Eversolo app is at least as good as Auralic Lightning DS

3. Bluesound Node borrowed and used only as a streamer:  App was generally better than the Auralic or Eversolo apps, but two bugs (Benchmark DAC compatibility via USB and album art size limitations at that time) caused me to return the product.  Disappointing.

4. Wiim Ultra borrowed and used only as a streamer:  App was unacceptable.  1.  Cannot search across streaming and local (NAS) content (deal-breaker);  2.  Album art on local content would not appear regardless of a number of attempts to change some relevant settings on my NAS.  Note that both of these items work perfectly on the Eversolo and Auralic apps.  Overall system response of the Wiim Ultra was much slower than the Eversolo and Auralic streamers, but this might be hardware related.

My verdict:  The Eversolo app is the winner by a very small margin.  The Auralic app is also very good.  More or less a tie.  Also, both apps are extremely stable.

I have never tried Roon, but the idea of having to run a separate to computer as a core is totally unappealing to me.  My preference is to use a streamer with an app that does its best to not get in the way!

I think most people like what they started with and got used to using.  Brand loyalty with things like TVs cars etc is high because people are comfortable using them.  Easy.

But in my trusted (by me) opinion Roon is by far the easiest to use, easiest to organize music between different streaming sources or hard drives, does the best job at selecting music for you, and super important, is portable between most streamers.  So you can use Roon on an Aurender for example,  have tons of playlists, bookmarks and favorites, and transfer it all seamlessly to an Auralic or Innuos or Antipodes or Pink Faun or Taiko. You can’t do that with any other proprietary app. I have or have Grimm MU1, Aurender N20, Auralic Aries and imbedded bridge in my Tambaqui.  All can run Roon.  

NowI am not saying Roon easily sounds better than say Conductor, but it can be optimized to sound great.

$500 for a lifetime of my music software is a deal to me.  Roon is not perfect with their support philosophy or hardware, but it works for me!

An App that does not get in your way?  That would be one that searches music easily across streaming sources, makes playlists and bookmarks across streaming sources, and recalls what you want quickly and easily. And it can serve streamers of different brands at the same time, say if you have a Bluesound in the bedroom and an Aurender in your reference system.  That would be Roon.

Yes @rizzo1234 ,  a separate computer to run Roon is an issue.  I had a Roon Nucleus+ and it was a pain…plus a power cable and network connection.  Now my Grimm MU1 is both Roon core and streamer.  Works and sounds fantastic.   Admittedly this setup is significantly more than a Node or Eversolo or Wii.  But it sounds better, and Roon was portable for me during my entire upgrade path.   I started with a Mac mini, then several Bluesound products, then Auralic.Vega, then, Auralic Aries streamer into Tambaqui.  

Audirvana is another very nice app, I used it for years, thought sound quality just a bit more analog in direct comparison to Roon at the time.

I've also used my Euphony OS Stylus app with present setup, sound quality about on par with Roon. I also have option of Stylus and Roon with embedded HQPlayer.

Having direct experience with all these apps in both single streamer or bridged modes (Roon core on server, Endpoint on streamer) I most prefer Roon sans HQPlayer in bridged mode.

I will posit music player app sound quality very closely allied to the equipment its being used with. These native music player apps have the advantage of being designed in league or specifically for that single streamer. Roon, HQPlayer, Audirvana, J River, etc designed to work with all streamers so completely logical that sound quality all over the place. I know most of these generalist apps require powerful processors, much RAM, great network to work their best, people have issues because their setup hasn't been optimized for these apps. I've paid great attention to every single link in my streaming chain in order to extract max potential from Roon, high end vinyl like presentation is the result. IMO there are many paths to reach the summit, no single music player app is the undisputed champion of the world.