I have learned that speakers are a typical victim of "Designer Label Syndrome". Supposedly an $8 billion a year market (hard to believe) speakers are fairly simple beasts with little substantive improvements over the last 50 years. Ever since Paul Klipsch ( a character in his own right) read the Bell Labs 1934 papers and revolutionized speaker technology there have been few similar revolutionary improvements to the speaker. So- if you are an enterprising manufacturer of speakers (which are relatively cheap to build) how do you extract more and more money from the consumer ? Answer: Synthetic demand driven by cachet' ! Like a pair of Louis Vuitton sneakers @ $650 a pair vs. New Balance runners @ 60/pr. It's snobby bragging rights stuff I'm describing here- perceived vs. actual value in a product.
Here's an anecdotal example:
I recently set out to build a high end mid-fi system (ARC preamp, power amp, Dac 9) for a large room "main house" (not a listening room) system. The goal was big, full, rich sound in a room full of furniture, chow dogs, kids and untreatable other things like 20 foot ceilings, multiple openings such as a balcony to the upstairs bedrooms, etc. Basically an audiophile's nightmare.
I auditioned a number of speakers- Perlistens supported by JL Fathom subs, B&W Signatures, Bryston Model Ts, Vienna Acoustics Mahlers and Bethovens. IMO all of these are somewhat similar towers (except the Perlistens). The price point was not as important as the sound- given the limitations of the application.
In the shopping for new or used I found a number of odd prices. The most unusual finding was a brand new set of Model Ts here in Audiogon advertised for $4K with a 20 year factory warranty. The dealer had one slide around of his hand truck and it put white paint smears on a corner of the Boston Cherry cabinet. Hmmm- 4 grand vs. 12 grand for a small fixable cosmetic flaw? I bought them. They sound fantastic. Some elbow grease and a furniture marker pen made the flaw vanish.
I asked the dealer (Paul Kraft in Easton PA- great guy BTW) why the Audiogon Blue Book for a Model T was so low. His answer was "snob appeal". Apparently there is a big bragging rights premium paid for having the UFO looking B&W Signatures vs what the snobs call the Bryston Model Ts "Axioms in a fancy suit". I later learned that there are some prominent reviewers who refuse to listen to A/B speaker comparisons behind a silk curtain unless they know what brand is being scrutinized. To me that means "payola".
Do the Model Ts sound better to me than the Mahlers, Bethovens, B&Ws? No. But they don't sound worse either (in my application). Do the above sound $8,000-$14,000 better than the Brystons in the listening rooms of the dealers? IMO NO WAY. To be fair price/value does color my perception much like a bottle of $40 Rumbauer Zin tastes better to me than $200 Silver Oak expense account wine.
I'm guessing this post will anger brand snobs and garner snarky comments because their taste in sound is different than mine. Although this missive is really about personal perceptions of value v. sound I found my education on pricing fascinating and I feel great about finding amazing value in the brand new Model T's that needed 30 minutes of TLC to be at home in my family room.
Moral of the story: Try em before you buy em, and look for value. It's fun and rewarding with no buyers remorse.
This caught my eye as well, and initially I took it as a snobby comment since only snobby people refer to their stuff as high-end (un-snobby people might call someone else's stuff high end) and mid-fi is kind of an insult. However, after some thought, I think the OP simply meant to indicate that he wanted a quality system that is not his main listening room and so wasn't targeting the absolute sound.
I can understand why some felt insulted by the theme of the post, but there's no denying that people name-drop their gear so as to sound wealthy or "in the know."
It may have been different years ago, but at this point, no one cares about an expensive audio system except those that have them.
Hate to pop your bubble but there are new speaker designs out there that offer great sound for the money. My Revival Audio Atalante 3 monitors are the first to use basalt in the driver membrane. The designer used to design for other well known brands (Dynaudio, Focal-JM Labs) and he undercuts their prices by about 2/3s all the while making them in country in France.
The dome design is unique as well as the coating he uses on them. If you have a decent computer set up, check out this YouTube video and skip to 1:50 (unless you understand the language) and see how they stand up to (if not outshine) a pair of more expensive Dynaudios and Totems. Then factor in the price of the Atalante 3s at $2500/pair.
jji666 gets it. This system was designed and acquired in pieces on the cheap as a family room system at the beach house. It's not a listening room system. duh.
It's amazing how reflexively people jump to "max offended status" rather than carefully considering the post. One snob even took to insulting my will and capacity to have an absolute sound system. Gee whiz what do you do with such snobby condescending people? Misery loves company I guess....
Other folks were kind and congratulatory. Many thanks! Men of good will toast other's successes. I've learned that the wealthiest people (like the Ferrari club guys at the Cavallino in Palm Beach for example) are the easiest going and warmest. Broke jokers see rich guys acting snobby on TV and think that's the way rich people act. So they are really faux rich guy posing. Or they have puny units and E.D.. With some exceptions (jerks come in all walks of life) the richer the man the warmer he is.
Good Hifi gear costs money. Lots of it. I'd guess most audiophiles are affluent and have other expensive hobbies too. I for one have really enjoyed my 44 year Hifi journey. Good years and bad years. Divorces and remarriages. Good kids and bad ones. Audiogon is a fun place to share stories and practice writing skills. It's also really educational. Cheers to you gents!
When it sounds like flapping cheeks and is priced an arm and a leg, it generally tends to be one of those snob brands with prestige seeking fanboys ( dudes with relatively lower inner core self-worth in 'compensation mode').
But, when it actually sounds stunning and is priced an arm and a leg, well...pay up if you can and stop the 'sour grapes' snobbery accusations.
"OK I don’t want to insult you, but you really did listen to a lot of cheaper mdf partial board or wooden speakers. These sound like boxes.
B&W is kind of bottom or the Barrel with Dynaudio and KEF and all that stuff and is lower tier. Good speakers tend to cost the same as a luxury BMW or Mercedes for a reason. My speakers were $58,750"
Sounds like you are particularly well suited to discuss snob appeal.
Many high end speakers are horribly engineered because they are pigs to drive and therefore severely limit your choice of amplifiers.Wilsons ,Magico and B&W are examples of that.Wilson Sasha dips down to 2 ohms in the bass and the Magicos and B&Ws are not much better!And then they cheat on their specs by expressing sensitivity in db/watt/2.87 volts/1 metre when it should be db/watt/1watt/1 metre.Which means many of these speakers are really more like 82db/watt/metre.Which means you need some monster high power/high current/hot running lump of an amplifier to run them properly.
@grislybutter....amazing how a lot of things are better in the dark.... ;)
The lights' coming on is when "Should I stay or should I go...." *L*
@mofojo, well...I've had the varied pleasure of running into a lot of bipeds in this existential bane, and imh, the 'well-heeled' can be just as warm or m-f'd as the average broke-ass sort....
It can hinge on ones' approach, and what follows it up.
If the chip on your shoulder is bigger than the block one calls their head, it goes downhill from there.... ;)
I am certain of one thing about this hobby: recognition from peers is the most important thing! Brand image.
I'm just fascinated by these cheap class D mini-amps which get hyped to infinity due to excellent measurements but sound "meh" at best and the power ratings are overshot.
And on the high end of midrange folks are spending a fortune on vintage Klipsch, JBL and LS3/5A speakers. Or Marantz/Pioneer amplifiers.
This hobby is 99% marketing and hype. I'm sorry. But you can use that to your advantage and score a sweet vintage system for dirt cheap if nobody cares about the brand. I'm specifically hinting towards the 1990s or 2000s (the dark ages of HiFi LOL) and the UK brands outside of B&W, Naim, KEF or NAD.
recognition from peers is the most important thing! Brand image.
I'm just fascinated by these cheap class D mini-amps which get hyped to infinity due to excellent measurements but sound "meh" at best and the power ratings are overshot.
And on the high end of midrange folks are spending a fortune on vintage Klipsch, JBL and LS3/5A speakers. Or Marantz/Pioneer amplifiers.
This hobby is 99% marketing and hype. I'm sorry. But you can use that to your advantage and score a sweet vintage system for dirt cheap if nobody cares about the brand. I'm specifically hinting towards the 1990s or 2000s (the dark ages of HiFi LOL) and the UK brands outside of B&W, Naim, KEF or NAD.
The industry is exploiting the audio truth that ’you get what you pay for’ and delivering to the misguided expectations of deep-pocketed buyers who equate the highest prices with ‘better’ and ‘best’.
The owner of a hifi shop described how he would recommend a particular pair of Magnepans as his best sounding speakers on offer, but customers would judge by the price and they’d look onward to the more expensive sets, they’d say, ‘Those are nice, but tell me about these over here.’
As a result, for example, an amplifier brand and a speaker brand were both separately given the same business advice: ‘You’re selling that for $3000? Charge $10,000.’
We do indeed get what we pay for in the sense that audio equipment is about quality components in the signal path.
Every choice a manufacturer makes down to the choice to use a higher quality resistor affects the balance sheet and raises the price.
Steve McCormack’s description of his quest to build the best preamplifier is a revelation, and many others have talked about this.
But, while it’s true that quality audio equipment is expensive to produce, the ones with more money than they know what to do with have skewed the market, and the industry is happy to take their money.
when i owned my 2016 Porsche CS2 for 18 months it was a garage Queen. a trophy. i drove it a few times a week in the summer. put 3000 miles on it. made me smile.
but i listened to my system with multi-6 figure speakers 3-5 hours a day. every day of the year.
no contest. the speakers had an infinitely higher ROI.....both in use and snob appeal and visitors to my room seemed to enjoy them regularly too.
just my 2 cents."
I agree with Mike Lavigne , while I never had a Porche, my Vette doesn't get much use .... my humble system does get used daily, every day. Much better value and ROI for sure.
My Dad just picked up a pair of Sonus Electa Amator III. When I listen to them any doubt whether they were worth the money quicly disappears. They sound incredible and hopefully will give him just as much , or probably more enjoyment than the SF Concertos that the just retired. They are on long term loan to me and still sound great.
Over the last 50 years audio has evolved from a place where a lowly Sgt in the Army (Me) could buy a system of components that sounded terrific and music was the focus to where we are today.
I have had a modicum of success in life and can afford a system the value of a new Toyota, not the most expensive gear, but certainly of a quality level that satisfies my ears.
What I see now is people chasing a very small marginal gain at a huge cost. Married to an economist wife who appreciates music, we agree on the value of not chasing that beast that causes people to change gear in an elusive chase that often has no end. She is the one who said I could buy 20.7 Maggies if I wanted to, but we agreed that 3.6s were a better value at that time and would require a good bit less power.
Sometimes bigger / more expensive is not better. My 1958 Austin Healey Bugeye Sprite made me smile every time I drove it. Power nothing, no radio, wtc, but oeople regularly would wave, stop and say hi at stop lights, etc. The same is true after a certain point in audio, quality sound is a available without spending the moon.
What is often lost is the synergy among components, especially inputs and pre amps. Of course the room is a huge deal, but often compromises rule the day and tat 1/10 of 1 percent gain from huge expenditures gets lost in the room. No one spoke of source material during the speaker discussion. Are you spinning records, streaming, using R2R, etc. The chase can be addictive as we all know, yet the man driving a Ferrari Enzo will get more more pleasure out of his car than I have from my Bugeye, and we are both happy at the end of the day.
There seems to be a common mistake many people have with audio, and especially as it reaches the upper prices and echelon.
I see many people say things like, "is a $20K speaker really worth twice that of a $10K speaker?".
Well, no, if one is expecting exactly twice the performance. But that’s not what one should expect to get out of twice the money.
This is where the phrase, ’diminishing returns’ gets thrown around quite a bit. When it comes to audio, diminishing returns does not exist, in any way other than subjectively, per individual. There is absolutely no objective point of diminishing returns.
If spending an extra $10K for speakers, to get less than double the sound quality is worth it for one person, they did not yet meet their point of diminishing returns.
Just remember, for members here who scoff at mega-dollar audio, there are millions of people out there, who listen to MP3’s. on their smart phones, with $20 earbuds, who think even the most modest, few thousand dollar complete system, is ridiculous money to spend.
I have been reading through the Troels Gravesen kit speaker builder project pages.
Many of the people who have built those speakers also own very good "brand" models like B&W 802D and ATC SCM 40 speakers and are reporting that the $2500 kit speakers they have built sound much better.
Those sorts of speakers are hard to sell though.People turn their nose up at them because they do not have any brand snobbery appeal.
Same goes for Chinese Copy amplifiers of ultra high end European models like Dartzeel NHB 108 or FM 300A.They sound superb but most people do not want to know about them.
So many audiophiles are snobs and clearly not really in it primarily for sound quality.
I have been reading through the Troels Gravesen kit speaker builder project pages.
Many of the people who have built those speakers also own very good "brand" models like B&W 802D and ATC SCM 40 speakers and are reporting that the $2500 kit speakers they have built sound much better.
Those sorts of speakers are hard to sell though.People turn their nose up at them because they do not have any brand snobbery appeal.
Same goes for Chinese Copy amplifiers of ultra high end European models like Dartzeel NHB 108 or FM 300A.They sound superb but most people do not want to know about them.
So many audiophiles are snobs and clearly not really in it primarily for sound quality.
I’ve been singing the praise of DIY speakers designed by the likes of Troels and Jeff Bagby, and others for years!
It is not unusual for DIY speakers by leading DIY designers to end up sounding better than commercially purchased speakers of at least 5 times the price.
My Jeff Bagby designed Auricle’s (RAAL tweeters, SB Acoustic mids), sitting on a pair of Jeff Bagby’s woofer modules (not subwoofers), sound as good as any $10K speaker. I have about $2200 in them.
I am also familiar with quite a few Chinese ’clone’ amps, and I agree, the good ones sound very, very close to the quality of the originals. Especially the ones with the "Sunbuck" label on them. And no, they are not stealing intellectual property. They are using circuit diagrams that have been freely available online for years.
Put me down as a big fan of kit speakers as well. I wish more people would DIY their audio gear, in general, as this would become less of a consumer and more of a builder like environment. More people with hands on experience with parts leads to less marketing BS.
The commercial ratio of driver cost to sales price is at least 10:1 in most cases (Fritz and other small builders rare exceptions). This ratio gets worse if they make their own drivers.
Not saying that part cost is the determinant factor in sound quality but rather that a DIYer has significant incentive to achieve excellent results which would otherwise be out of their reach.
Also, I have long ago given up the belief that $$$$ means quality or desirability for me. Sometimes more expensive is better but many times it is not. A true audiophile in my mind can tell the difference.
I was a professional high-end furniture maker for 20 years, and really want to tackle one of the better kits or "plan" speakers. Have watched the Bagby Youtube's and others. I am drooling at the higher quality drivers. My remaining stash of high grade hardwood boards is just sitting there. Used to have a small bandmill through I ran veneer grade walnut and cherry logs. Advancing age halted my furniture business, but I can certainly handle a speaker build. I am only interested in the most proven designs and am not prepared to run acoustic analyzers in a hit or miss manner to determine maximum fidelity as I have seen some builders do.
The Troels Gravesen Ekta 25 looks a great design for use with solid timber construction.Or solid timber over ply.Not a huge speaker but using very high quality Scanspeak drivers capable of beautiful tonality.Which is why Sonus Faber use them in some of their expensive models.
I am tempted to build some myself .Like you I have a stash of premium hardwood-Birdseye and curly jarrah and Tasmanian Blackwood.
@ronbocogreat looking system and room! But Bluesound Node into 866 with Rockports? C’mon man…That’s like topping your Ferrari gas tank off with donkey piss. You’ve got to get that one sorted out. Get a decent streamer for your high-end mid-fi system.
Thanks! I have been enjoying my time listening very much. I only use the node for streaming and with the Teddy Pardo LPS it seems quite good. I also really like the BluOS app. Having said that I would like to compare it with something else. What are your recommendations for a streamer only that is neutral and would be a nice step up from the node? And has a great control app as well.
Ron…probably Aurender. Lumin is good as well but their app sucks. Also, you can eliminate the streamer altogether…if I’m not mistaking, your 866 is a Roon end point. I would at least try it free for 30 days to just see and hear if you like it. Roon has probably one of, if not the best UI. All you need is to install roon core on a computer that’s on the same network and use a tablet or a smart phone as remote. Run your ethernet cable straight into 866 and you’re done.
The Aurender is the one I would like to try. I was considering Roon in the beginning but it seemed to be more than I needed. I can revisit it though. Thanks again.
Happy listening !
I am tempted to build some myself .Like you I have a stash of premium hardwood-Birdseye and curly jarrah and Tasmanian Blackwood.
Hardwoods are not recommended for speaker enclosures.
Different hardwoods, depending on density and hardness, will have their own resonant behaviors that are usually centered over a narrow range, or ranges of frequencies.
MDF or birch ply, because of their construction and materials, have much better damped resonances, with lower peaks or dips. They are less likely to add their own sound to the music via resonance and ringing. But even then, to get extremely good results, they still benefit by further damping with things like: mass loaded vinyl, No Res, Green Glue Noise proofing compound, NVX sonic barrier on the inside of the panels.
There are videos on YT demonstrating how much more resonant and poorly damped hardwood is compared to MDF or ply. But all you have to do, is nock on a panel of MDF, then a panel of hardwood of the same dimensions, and the differences are easily audible.
Not to mention, hardwoods react to temperature and humidity changes much more, and will possibly crack, buckle, or pull away at the joints.
I can speak from experience. I originally built my Jeff Bagby woofer modules from 1" MDF, with a lot of bracing, and they sounded great. But after a few weeks, I added another layer of MDF with a layer of mass loaded vinyl between (for constrained layer damping), and the audible improvements were not difficult to hear.
Not saying that part cost is the determinant factor in sound quality but rather that a DIYer has significant incentive to achieve excellent results which would otherwise be out of their reach.
Also, I have long ago given up the belief that $$$$ means quality or desirability for me. Sometimes more expensive is better but many times it is not. A true audiophile in my mind can tell the difference.
+1
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I remember what the late Peter Snell achieved with cheap drivers in the AII's. It wasn't a case of luck or "one in a million," but rather careful selection, great implementation and design. He spent money and effort where it mattered sonically, not that the AII's were cheap per se, but by today's standard I'd wager they were.
I bought my studio installation amps 2nd hand. Their "audiophile" edition aimed at the hifi market, acquired new, sets one back 20x as much compared to what I shelled out per amp, and yet they're essentially similar in construction and overall execution. I heard them head to head, and they are indeed virtually similar sounding. Where they weren't by a smidgen you'd fool yourself believing the hifi edition was necessarily preferable. Believe me, it was splitting hairs.
The need for über-built amps from the likes of D'agostino and others would appear to be grown mainly from hideously difficult "highend" speaker loads, passively configured with complex crossovers with a sponge-like ability to suck up power. Talk about bottleneck effect and nurturing a select segment of amp business. A friend of mine uses two bridged studio amps (very similar to ones I use) for a total of 3.6kW per channel into notoriously difficult-to-handle passive speakers. Now there's power in reserve, as there should be for any desired SPL, as well as a sound more freed and less restrained, but it took a whole lot of (quality) power to get there.
On the other hand remove the passive crossover for active configuration, as another friend of mine did with similar speakers, and it meant the world in harnessing even higher potential from the associated amps - as well as, in effect, the speakers themselves. It means seeing what you have potentially thrive sonically this way, significantly so.
DIY grants the opportunity to realize designs that aren't readily available commercially, if at all - let alone at prices that are within grasp to "mere mortal." Skewing the typical segment of audiophile products can save you a lot of money - requiring an open, unbiased mind, that is. Buying 2nd hand, obviously. Going outboard active is also an element of DIY. Don't indulge in the audiophile market and its mechanisms. Challenge it; go rogue, and let the ears do the talking.
I think more of brand confidence than snob appeal. Even if buying entry level, one hopes that a brand that makes lauded high end speakers provides the best quality components top to bottom of their offerings. This is no always the case.
Yes, room, and tastes, and system integration, but if you're spending $100k on speakers and can't find what you like, I think someone suggested Bose? More seriously stated, we have unprecedented amazing speaker choices available to us now.
I think it's more difficult at the low to midfi range, and for me, fortune favors the brave. Buy used and even old. For $1200 my legendary highly engineered KEF 107's are extremely tough to beat with great full range capabilities. My crossovers may have some rust on them, but they're weight would crush any current $1200 speaker crossover. KEF is a brand to be confident in and new products such as LS50 appear to provide good value.
Some manufacturers take advantage of their brand, and while they provide nice sounding speakers, they use the cheapest parts and charge the highest price possible on entry level products.
It can be scarier to choose a smaller company, an internet direct company, especially one that appears to have few or even one employee, but if you dont want to put all your money into overhead, I think that is the way to go. Is it nice to think that there is a huge team developing the best speaker? Maybe. Even large companies will tout the great single engineer that developed their speaker.
I think it's pretty well established that one or two people can design and build a fantastic speaker. The trick is finding the person designing that likes the sound signature you like. For me that is currently the very first home audio design by Daedalus. The best I have heard in my house ever. Caveat, I would not pay the $10-15k these would cost new though I think they're worth it versus other $10k original retail speakers I have heard. If I had that much money, I would wait for a better used set of Daedalus to go up for sale.
I used to steer clear of the smaller companies with supposed great speakers. If they're so great, why isn't everyone buying them? The better of these companies are usually in high demand for what they can produce and actually back-ordered. Salk Sound is an example of producing very high quality speakers and cabinets and always back ordered, until now going out of business with no one to take over. I suppose there's concern of long term support, but I've yet to need support from any speaker manufacturer and many like Salk don't make their own drivers.
Another one who, like Salk, uses same drivers as manufacturers such as Joseph Audio, is Tyler Acoustics. I've yet to get a pair, but you can sometimes find some used at price of high end drivers, let alone crossovers and cabinets. You'll never find that value with big name brands, and Tyler speakers are highly regarded.
Even better than DIY, buy a used set of DIY for less than the cost of the parts after the builder moves on to the next project. Make sure you pay low since resale of DIY is the lowest of the low. I think this is a good example where more value is put on brand confidence than sound quality, but may have nothing to do with snobbery of brand or lack thereof if not a kit. Again the idea, if it's so great, why doesn't everyone DIY? Also, lack of reviews, etc.
Ribbon/amt/Walsh nitwit that I is, I'm curious if there's any IRL feedback re NFR drivers/units, other than the 'customer feedbacks' at their site...
They rarely show up on any sell/swap site, TMK...
Either they're capable of 'mind melds' that turn one into a NFRzombie, or good 'nuff to be a well-kept secret....both of which is unlikely, given the noted continued existence and general rise in $ (US or CN) plus expansion of offerings...
Anyone in the Great White North willing to spill the beans 'n bourbon 'bout this?
I wouldn't try to build a solid wood speaker cabinet - the kit or plan speakers are no doubt engineered from more uniform materials such as mdf or ply. However, I would perhaps use fine woods for corner accents. I do have some very good .75" thick cherry veneered mdf that is calling out for a speaker build.
I do remember a solid wood Klipsch speaker from the early 90's that was a Roy Delgado design - it was one the CF series and some of them were made from solid, clear quartersawn oak - a material uniform enough to work with predictably from an acoustic standpoint. The solid wood one was considered the best of the series. When I was looking for these on Ebay years ago I found one of the solid wood ones (I could see that from photo inside the cabinet,) but it was more than I wanted to pay at the time.
Respectfully, I will have to disagree with you on this one. I have owned a pair of Klipsch CF 4 for almost 15 years and I feel pretty certain that none were produced from solid wood of any type, unless of course that was done by an owner as an aftermarket enhancement. The reason that you may have been led to think so is that the cabinets and braces (not including the front baffle and the back wall) are made from .75" plywood. Mine are the version I which was considered to be the best, and just as Roy Delgado wanted them to be. I’ve had plenty of opportunity to study them because I am currently having the crossovers redone and rewiring them as well as refinishing the cabinets.
I am not sure if it was the CF 4 or an earlier number. I was a professional high-end furniture maker for 15 years and know what I am looking at. The Ebay seller who had the CF listed provided a photo of the interior of the cabinet which showed more clearly than the exterior shot that the cabinet was made of strips of solid, quartersawn white oak about 3-4 inches wide. Some of the gluelines had not been throughly cleaned up of squeeze out. I should have bought it then - $1,300.00 as I recall.
I suspect there was a small run of these solid wood boxes as the CF series was not popular anyway with dedicated Klipsch fan because the series did not stick to the "original sound," and building a solid wood box would not have been economical at all.
In my view, we should be celebrating the efforts of those that have commited the talent and resources to produce cost-no-object examples of the best our industry can offer. There are ultra expensive products produced from a multitude of categories that appeal to those without financial or physical constraints. Having exquite examples of products within a catagory we are passionate about (high end audio) should put smiles on our faces that will take plastic surgery to remove.
Most "mortals" operate in a "this" OR "that" universe, where we need to make choices, and priorties need to be set up in accending order. Others want highly competant performance wrapped in a package that appeals esthetically accompanied by a stroke of industrial design genius. Then there are others who have a wherewithall to buy multiple copies of the (ultra expensive) item for each of their homes, and gift a pair (or, two) to friends and family. but still choose to apply a modest, high value competant to their purchase(s) because it is, well, who they are.
Mega expense products don’t always get it right. It could be a rigid design philopsy that leaves them short, or just plain gaps in their knowledge base. It is improper to assign less than admirable intent to a designer/manufacturer when we see (sometimes obvious) areas where resources were misapplied -- in our view.
As we seen in the past, "flagship" products have introduced "newer thinking" that has found its way into the mainstream. So, those "snob appeal" products do, in fact, provide a level of pragmatic injection for the "rest of us."
Lets raise our glasses (and cueing mechanisms?) to acknowledge those who put it all out there to produce the best of the best in our industry. While we’re not all better for it, some of us certainly are.
fyi- I was introduced to the concept of floating/balanced crossovers by a promenent speaker manufacturer years ago, and have never looked back.
I had to read the OP a couple times to understand. Congrats on the Bryston's! You compared resale value to B&W. Buying used or 'B' stock like you did is the only way to save yourself the gut punch of retail markup. When I consider how much of my money goes to taxes directly and indirectly then how much goes to retail markup I really wonder what we're going to do when we run out of countries to exploit! First world problems baby.
I gather your 'snob appeal' comment comes from B&W having better resale than Bryston speakers. Lets flip it tho'. If B&W started making conventional power amps I doubt they'd carry the same reputation Bryston amps have developed over the years.
We all have our own line drawn as to where we decide how much we'll spend for a specific feature or compliment of features. There's a whole forum dedicated to how a loudspeakers 'spins' are more important than how it sounds. There's experts stating the first dac's are audibly indistinguishable (spell check saved me on this one)from anything else newer that wasn't designed flawed. Some people look at me strangely and ask "so, you just sit in a chair and listen?" truly confused, because to many music is a tool to aid us in our chores, jobs, etc, but not an actual hobby in itself.
There is a way to make hardwood speakers that might be tractable, but the front and back baffles have to be made of MDF or ply. Correct grain orientation of the sold wood panels eliminates contrary seasonal wood movement.
As this maker in the video above shows cabinet resonance can be obviated with damping materials. Also, a great many DIY'ers use wood braces. Granted, these are relatively small in cross-section, so wood movement is not much of an issue. I only mention it because sold wood has it's uses in cabinet construction - it's not automatically some bug-a bear.
Also, solid wood cabinets are easier to finish than veneered cabinets which can be finicky because of the thinner and thinner veneers being used. If the factory finish is something like poly then the strippers needed can soak through the veneer and loosen the underlying glue. If these refinishing process is not the first rodeo and previous refinishing involved sanding the veneer, then you can get perilously close to sanding through the veneer which is a mini-disaster from a decorative standpoint.
Anyone wanting to build a solid wood or mostly solid wood cabinet would also be advised to use a high quality shellac and keep water away from speaker. Most definitely keep alcoholic beverages away from it too, but the advantage of shellac is that it looks great done right and can be easily stripped with alcohol.
Also, if possible use vertical grain wood if at all possible - it moves less and stays flatter. Ultimate wood would be vertical grade old growth macrophylla mahogany. Not cheap and not easy to find. Quartersawn Sitka Spruce might be really good but also expensive.
Somewhere on Youtube there is a video of a European maker whose solid wood speaker cabinets use resonance and tailored crossovers to good effect. I think he was Polish - can't find him though.
If you enjoy your system every time you use it and the music makes you feel good, that is the goal for just about everyone. Artists, mixing engineers, musicians, mastering- every step HAS to be rewarding for the person doing that part of the process, passing it on, making it better. When I talk to these folks, they are in love with their work (most of the time), not unlike an audiophile loves his system (most of the time). When its really good, it transports you.......
Jarrah -especially quarter sawn-is excellent for speaker building.It combines medium /high density [840kg/cubic metre] with a short grain structure and is very non-resonant.Also very good for turntable plinths and cartridge bodies [Grado uses it for some of their cartridges.
I have built really good sounding speakers out of it.A pair of Meniscus Audio Kairos for example.I agree you are best using MDF or ply for the front and back baffles.
Or you can use it for the front,back top and bottom panels [mitre joints] and MDF for the sides-over which you can glue "floating side cheeks".
@yoder Call me a cheapskate, but still think that you’re paying for the KEF name at $1200. I think I have a contender, something nobody wants but it oozes quality. It’s called the Ruark Templar for $600. It has SEAS drivers and a crossover inspired by Peter Linkwitz (the legend). The Stereophile review is glowing. But I can’t bring myself to audition/buy them. Maybe I gotta stop reading the classfields. I am overwhelmed with the sheer number of dirt cheap defunct British brands on offer.
@kokakolia may depend what you value, but the Ruark wouldn't contend overall with KEF 107's for me. I think you're right that KEF is not the right brand example of not snobbery though I believe they still offer some current value contenders based on feedback from listeners I trust. I was getting caught up more in KEF 107 value than brand snobbery discussion. Whether you love them or not, the Ruarks would appear to be a not snob choice. If $600 is beyond your limit, I would call you a cheapskate, and applaud you for it if you're happy with what you have. Though they may be relatively cheap you're doing some snobbing on driver brand and crossover designer influence.
Some of the biggest snobs I know are very good at getting good stuff for a steal. More power to them, but they can be every bit as insufferable as a high end snob.
@bolongYou hit me right in the feels man! Yeah, I was a snobbing no doubt. Regardless, these Ruark speakers look like an unbeatable deal. Furthermore, you can save a lot of cash if you have the knowledge. SEAS drivers are good. Linkwitz knows a lot about crossovers. Take notice. So you can always describe a statement with many adjectives.
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