The Snob Appeal Premium
I have learned that speakers are a typical victim of "Designer Label Syndrome". Supposedly an $8 billion a year market (hard to believe) speakers are fairly simple beasts with little substantive improvements over the last 50 years. Ever since Paul Klipsch ( a character in his own right) read the Bell Labs 1934 papers and revolutionized speaker technology there have been few similar revolutionary improvements to the speaker. So- if you are an enterprising manufacturer of speakers (which are relatively cheap to build) how do you extract more and more money from the consumer ? Answer: Synthetic demand driven by cachet' ! Like a pair of Louis Vuitton sneakers @ $650 a pair vs. New Balance runners @ 60/pr. It's snobby bragging rights stuff I'm describing here- perceived vs. actual value in a product.
Here's an anecdotal example:
I recently set out to build a high end mid-fi system (ARC preamp, power amp, Dac 9) for a large room "main house" (not a listening room) system. The goal was big, full, rich sound in a room full of furniture, chow dogs, kids and untreatable other things like 20 foot ceilings, multiple openings such as a balcony to the upstairs bedrooms, etc. Basically an audiophile's nightmare.
I auditioned a number of speakers- Perlistens supported by JL Fathom subs, B&W Signatures, Bryston Model Ts, Vienna Acoustics Mahlers and Bethovens. IMO all of these are somewhat similar towers (except the Perlistens). The price point was not as important as the sound- given the limitations of the application.
In the shopping for new or used I found a number of odd prices. The most unusual finding was a brand new set of Model Ts here in Audiogon advertised for $4K with a 20 year factory warranty. The dealer had one slide around of his hand truck and it put white paint smears on a corner of the Boston Cherry cabinet. Hmmm- 4 grand vs. 12 grand for a small fixable cosmetic flaw? I bought them. They sound fantastic. Some elbow grease and a furniture marker pen made the flaw vanish.
I asked the dealer (Paul Kraft in Easton PA- great guy BTW) why the Audiogon Blue Book for a Model T was so low. His answer was "snob appeal". Apparently there is a big bragging rights premium paid for having the UFO looking B&W Signatures vs what the snobs call the Bryston Model Ts "Axioms in a fancy suit". I later learned that there are some prominent reviewers who refuse to listen to A/B speaker comparisons behind a silk curtain unless they know what brand is being scrutinized. To me that means "payola".
Do the Model Ts sound better to me than the Mahlers, Bethovens, B&Ws? No. But they don't sound worse either (in my application). Do the above sound $8,000-$14,000 better than the Brystons in the listening rooms of the dealers? IMO NO WAY. To be fair price/value does color my perception much like a bottle of $40 Rumbauer Zin tastes better to me than $200 Silver Oak expense account wine.
I'm guessing this post will anger brand snobs and garner snarky comments because their taste in sound is different than mine. Although this missive is really about personal perceptions of value v. sound I found my education on pricing fascinating and I feel great about finding amazing value in the brand new Model T's that needed 30 minutes of TLC to be at home in my family room.
Moral of the story: Try em before you buy em, and look for value. It's fun and rewarding with no buyers remorse.
I am certainly an audiophile then because i always proudly mention the price of my system : 700 bucks...
Only great books compete with Bach in a well designed acoustic room and walking our dogs... Ferrari or Porsche toys are for children in my book,.... Our priorities are not the same it seems...
Great post! you are right on the spot for me...
How do we recognize good sound anway ? Nobody is born with a set of neurons dedicated to audiophile recognition... Most people recognize good sound by price tags... Some design their own speakers, which i could not do; but others like me tuned their room ... There is only one WAY to learn how to listen , it is acoustic control of the room... Reading reviews about high, bass imaging soundstage are of no use at all sorry... And if you are unable to trust your ears and train them you will be insecure with no clue save price tag.. I always mention my price tag audio system costling 700 bucks for the same reason others underlined their many thousand bucks system prrice : childish pride.. I am not immune to it ..😊 But in one case the buyer bought and learn nothing most of the times... In my case i learned a lot... |
You are not even wrong.. The problem is putting all people in a category and judging them all in the same way... Pidgeon do that, not human brain... I am an audiophile and i am not in your one sticker category... But perhaps i am an a-holes...But i am not a snob... We need a binary tree here...But i think a graph will do better... 😊
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@roxy54 To read, have a good laugh and learn. Thanks for the laugh. It is my opinion and that of many other people. Should read a few of these, https://www.google.com/search?q=why+are+audiophiles+snobs&rlz=1C1GCEB_enUS960US960&oq=Why+are+audiphiles&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgBEAAYDRiABDIGCAAQRRg5MgkIARAAGA0YgAQyCQgCEAAYDRiABDIICAMQABgWGB4yCggEEAAYhgMYigUyCggFEAAYhgMYigUyCggGEAAYhgMYigUyCggHEAAYhgMYigXSAQg4MzkxajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#ip=1
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Sorry to lump those afflicted with audiophilia into one bucket but it is safe to say it is a high percentage, 80%. Most of the guys at my local Porsche club are elitist snobs too.
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I understand your point... I will only correct you a bit, i am here for a long time, and the distribution of snobs and idiots or geniuses obey the same Bell-Gauss curves...I estimated the number of snobs to be under 50%...but it is a subjective impression... I then will evaluate the number of snobs in any set as probalitistically less than half... But Porsche club being very different than hot dog eater club, or slightly different than audio forums, i will give you some right to say so...And i will only correct you for 15 to 25 % under your first estimate of 80%...Because audio club are not hot dog eater club nor Porsche club... The number of snobs is higher in Porsche club...Here the population varieties spread is more well mixed...
I am retired and i like to discuss... Dont take it personal ... Welcome here with or without Porsche... Anyway i only own Bugatti aerolithe 1934 models by the way...Porsche are too much trivial... 😊 We dont plan to create a club, we are a way too exclusive club to be named "club"... ...
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@mahgister wrote/quoted:
"Great post! you are right on the spot for me..." Indeed, and skewing the segment of products (from hi-fi to pro) brings with it yet another, big advantage in going "below radar" to acquire some true bargains. |
The biggest bargain in my audio life are not my 20 bucks miraculous good dac, nor my two Sansui Amplifiers nor my 50 bucks Mission Cyrus speakers... It is the AKG k340 a mythical headphone that most people are unable to figure out and drive well... It takes me 6 months to do it and optimize them... I dont know if they are the best headphone ever designed but i think so for evident reason... Because they are old they were discarded as TOP headphone now, i paid 100 bucks for this misunderstood complex design compared to most headphones on the market ... Incredible... Top high end for peanuts when optimized... They beat anything i ever listen to ( speakers included) ... But beware they cannot reveal their potential right out of the box sorry... I even read the patent to understand how they work... Each evening i entered in sonic paradise...thanks to Dr. Gorike who beat even the Stax omega with this gem...Seismic bass and celestial highs with natural voices and " out of the head" soundstage especially with well recorded classical music.. With them i listen to the recording as if i was there not to my head cinema... I disliked any other headphone i ever listen to for too much many reasons to enumerate them ... Most speakers in a living room cannot beat them ...
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This has been a fun thread. Lots of valuable ideas too! The guys that took the time to consider the OP and the guys who spent some time to discuss DIY speakers- cheers to you! I enjoy seeing those of a certain *ahem* persuasion attack, disparage, ridicule anything they have not endorsed is a pleasure too.....one fool suggested if you don't agree with his perspective get a boat or a Harley. Funny that- as if the guys here only had one hobby and only one place to spend their time and money. Mom's basement gets cold in the winter for the hater guys LOL! On DIY speakers: I'm amazed at the quality of drivers that you can buy for not much money compared to the cost of a "brand affirmed" product. GR, Graveson stuff makes me want to get in the shop this January and get some low cost high results education on subs. Even if you shrew up the kit you are more educated and better off. I'm also amazed at those who are consumed with class envy and system envy. These are miserable humans who cannot enjoy the subtle, wonderful, exciting parts of life. Sad, really. Life's a beyatch and then you die- and off to your reward- Forever. Sucks to be you indeed. Thanking you all again for the fun, education and info! and to the haters here: Kiss my foot :) |
@mahgister (IMHO) recognizing ‘good sound’ on a superficial level is about hearing sounds you’re most familiar with. So human vocals. Maybe an instrument if you’re a musician. How does that sound coming out of the speakers compare to the ‘real thing’? You may entirely disagree with me and value bass or soundstage or micro details. There’s no wrong answer. Only snobs think that they have the right answer. It’s subjective I guess. Yes, this is some painfully superficial information you’d probably find on ‘Wiki How’. But the surge of salesman audio reviews praising the heck out of terribly artificial sounding speakers such as the Klipsch RP600M has me worried. I am such a snob in that regard! Yikes… Aaaand, I am a snob for single driver speakers without crossovers. I think that they do vocals and guitars better. Everyone has biases. But I heard some 2 way speakers with great results and I don’t know what to believe anymore. |
I try to not be either a snob, nor an a/h....lifes' too short. I know that I can be the latter, spouse occasionally accuses self of such...and she's a decent judge of that....when she's not being one as well, or acting as such... ;) Snobby? Perhaps, not intentional, but granted the potential... We all have preferences, 'imho', feet in the concrete rockrib stance stuff. At days' end or dawns' early light, if any given pair of us can concede that the other is allowed their conceptions, mis- or otherwise... It's all Good, as it should be. Play often. Play LOUD. Just keep playing... ;)
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My answer will be complex because you are right and wrong at the same times.. Yes we own our own ears inner filters each different from other person , our heads dimensions and ears distance and geometry differ too... Our personal listening and hearing history differ too.. Then we had each one of us our biases ... You are right on this ... ( it is the reason why, ultimately small room acoustic COULD BE tailored made for ONE pair of ears and is very different in acoustic application from great Hall acoustic, as headphone measured for Smyth realizer or for the Choueri Filters must be very specifically tailored made experience for one specific pair of ears ) But where you are not completely right here, it is by the omission of acoustic and psycho-acoustic laws or principles which are the same for everyone.. The only way to learn which is timbre , apart for recognizing a good timbre subjectively by memory and training , is learning how to control the acoustic factors modifying it... it is the same for all other aspects, as dynamics, transients, imaging differentiation , soundstage varying dimensions , holographic volume of sound source , immersiveness etc each of these factors cannot be understood if we do not learn, not only how to recognize them, but how to modify them... How can we experience immersiveness, the most important factor with Timbre, which is a very specific acoustic factors defined by ratios of timing, and distance , and ratios of reflective/diffusive/absorbing surfaces, and relative to the pressure zones specific dynamic in the room , and balance ratios between sound sources and the listener position , etc ? It is the reason why it is acoustic and psycho-acoustic which is at the center of audio experience FIRST , not the gear electrical performance as Objectivist claims erroneously or apparent sound performance and qualities and their price tags as subjectivist claims erroneously ... Snobism is based on two factors : ignorance of what is really important and exclusion of those who dont recognize the arbitrary factors constituting snobism as a selected club where some sheep thinking around a secondary factor is elevated to idol status...Objectivist and subjectivism may become snobism clubs based on different orientation which can be meaningful when relativized but whose meaning is erased in quarrelling meaninglessness.. Then acoustician cannot be snobs nor could we think they are only because they know better than objectivists or subjectivists.. The right answer in audio is this one : use your ears to verify information and to train them but base your journey on experiments more than just purchases of consumers good ...
«I snob myself a lot »--Groucho Marx 🤓
«Sound are subjective qualitative experience of sound sources and informative one about localization and time and they are not reducible to be mere waves or illusions»--Anonymus acoustician
«I see better eyes closed when playing»--Harpo Marx🧐
«Sounds are like animals in a room , i track them »--Indian drum player
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I’ve always been aware that my gear is humble compared to many systems here. As far as I’m concerned I don’t care if anyone thinks my audio indulgences are ridiculous. They are not in comparison to many friends hobbies. Their hobbies are way more expensive…. Boats , ski trips , trips in general. I like to travel but I have no problem spending what a trip would cost on a really good component or speakers. It’s tangible and will give me many years of enjoyment |
My system is as humble as your own ... Dont feel shame the relation between musical nirvana and sound perfection is not linear nor directly related... My "virtual room" motto is : Top Hi-fi audiophile experience for the not wealthy... I am dead serious about it... 😊 By the way only ignorant people will claim that their audio system is superior to anyone else because of price especially if their audio system as most system are in living room with few if any acoustical embeddings controls.. There is evident exception , go see mikelavigne virtual system...His room acoustic is the main factor for me...I know that his system is TOP... But many other flashy one dont touch it... And my modest system is not too far behind those that dont touch it anyway... 😊
The other reason is hearing is so complex and synergetical windows of coupled components so complex and variable too especially if we add the various embeddings situation and devices around them , that bragging about the design superiority of amplifier over another less costly one but relatively good one is preposterous presented as for everyone the ONLY solution...
“ With over a million essential moving parts, the
And the minimal S. Q. satisfaction threshold is relatively easy to grab, modulo embeddings control with basic knowledge and relatively good basic components at low price, especially TOP vintage of the past...
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I don’t find a lot of snobs here. [a person who believes they are superior to others, due to their wealth, social status, or taste in culture]. I think there are a lot of big egos. Folks that have found their system but without the breath of experience to realize there are lots of different tastes in sound, objectives, and budgets. So they think their way is the only way. Also, frequently restricted budget thing plus ego equals looking down on people as having too much money and no sense, or visa versa. If you’re really going to be a snob. This just isn’t the pursuit for you. You need something flashy recognized by almost everyone. Not just .001% of the population, that is really esoteric. I think houses, cars, clothing, clubs… that kind thing is more prowl to snobbery. |
I’m lucky , kids are grown , bills are low , hearing is still pretty good. I make no apologies for any toys I buy. I save for something I want , never buy anything I can’t pay for in cash …. I also try to buy gear that is desirable at resale. Sometimes my swapping out gear is more like a long term rental. In the case of some CJ and Mac gear I have sold I have actually profited. |
To me, you are the essence of a true audiophile. Someone that is passionate about sound quality / music and makes concessions in other parts of their life to achieve the best possible sound for you. I had a cheap used Datson 1200 car for fifteen years (20 - 35), and bought the cheapest TP, but bought a new a cutting edge Threshold amplifier (costing over 5 times what my car costs). No snobbery, just passion. |
I'd be very interested in your impressions, even if brief, of the speakers on that impressive list! Cheers. |
ghdprentice, I totally get it... also have driven some real turds ..... when I had a young family I was very fiscally responsible to make sure they had everything they needed. Always put them first .... now they are adults and ask for nothing. But.... I love quality gear. I am fortunate to have just taken in a pair of Sonus Faber monitors. They sound fantastic. They are 20 + years old , but you would never know it. Look and sound amazing. When.I listen to speakers of this calibre it validates the old saying " you get what you pay for " I was going to sell these but it is nice being able to rotate speakers. I am having a pair of Omegas built so I am using these for the time being . The goal of my bedroom system was : not to break the bank , compact , good sound, convenient I took a chance and bought a new Cyrus i7XR that was on closeout. I’m staring at it right now and am amazed how good this little shoe box sized amp sounds. I am definitely keeping this one. Built in DAC , phono, remote, AV mode and a bunch of other great and unique features. It’s in my main listening room right now. Plays nice with my Forte too...
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YG acoustics Carmel 2, YG acoustics Hailey 2.2, YG Sonja 2.2 YG is very flat, need a ton of power and kind of a huge studio monitor but never harsh. Vivid Kaya 25 & 45, Vivid Giya G1 and G2 vivid are like open baffle speakers bolted on different size subs and blended better than you can blend with subs. Sideways bass drivers don’t mess with room as much and dig down deeper than advertised frequency response. Easy to drive 6 ohm loads. Dynamikks Athos 10 (best bang per buck) They are concentric Horns around a midrange. Great highs and magical mids. Bass dies at about 35 htz. They need subs. Magico A5 & Magico S5…A5 is a bit bright and lacks a little bass but is not thin. The S5 has a we bit more bass and a shittier midrange. Kharma Exquisite Midi 3.0 boomy bass perfect mids and highs but a disappointing mess that’s not controlled down low. Wilson Alexx V, Wilson Alexia V, Wilson Sash DAW Alexia-V and Alexx-V solid build, colored midrange but nice and warm…tons of bass and depending on set up can be boomy obnoxious to glorious. Highs are adequate but not enough sparkle. The Vivids crush them like grapefruits. Raidho TD 3.8, Raidho D3 amazing speakers but Td3.8 a bit boomy. The older D3 is better and has better control.
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Thank you very much @pennfootball71 I've been curious about the YG speakers (not in the market) and will finally hear some soon at a friend's place. I'm familiar with the Vivid Audio speakers sound. "Vivid" they are! I auditioned the Magico A3 and found it somewhat disapointing. Disappeared nicely, was pretty boxless and detailed, but sort of boring and dynamically limp, with slightly over-ripe bass. Your Kharma remarks mirror what I heard when I auditioned Kharma speakers. They were dark, rich, relaxed, grain-free, but overblown in the bass. I also found some Raidho stand mounted monitors to be a bit too colored, scooped in the mids and a bit obnoxious in the bass. I've always wanted to hear Borreson speakers and your impressions are a surprise! Strangely, Wilson speakers have managed to hide from me for years and years. I just never encounter them anywhere! |
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I live in New England. I have a C4S and drove it every day. A real SUV. Now I swap it out on occasion for a TRX, my new sports car. Scares the hell out of everyone else on the road (except the cops). The only time I am not listening to music is when I am sleeping. Most of the listening is with my shop system, two pairs of old Mirage speakers with Adcom electronics and a bunch of big machines. There is no multi six figure loudspeaker I care to own. I have never heard a set sound as good or image as well as line source, dipole ESLs. Most multi six figure speakers can certainly go louder. My TRX can leave my old C4S in the dust. The C4S will murder the TRX on the track. The most important and expensive part of any system is the room it sits in. A bad room can make the best speakers sound like sh-t. I was recently in the theater of a very wealthy person who was not an audiophile. It was gorgeous with walnut wainscoting, outrageous wallpaper and leather theater seating in 3 rows. He was showing me how great it sounded with a hi def digital copy of The Wall. It was very hard not to laugh. The panels in the wainscoting were buzzing away. The builder did not bother to dampen them. |
From what I understand only the heat sinks and covers are made by chinese prisoners because no one in the US makes them. Do you have anything to back a suggestion of more than this because you are obviously suggesting their entire components are chinese. I would pointout that the sprout is chinese and therefore not what I would consider real PSAudio. |
All of the talk of box materials is interesting. I do like metal boxes. On the other hand, if I wanted to make a completely rigid box I could go to Home Depot and get some MDF and porcelain floor tiles and make a box that'd be just as rigid for not much money. Make the MDF box slightly big, cut the tiles to size and caulk them to the inner walls. That's not going to let anything out or flex. Any company that wanted complete rigidity but not the hassle of metal working could do it. |