I have learned that speakers are a typical victim of "Designer Label Syndrome". Supposedly an $8 billion a year market (hard to believe) speakers are fairly simple beasts with little substantive improvements over the last 50 years. Ever since Paul Klipsch ( a character in his own right) read the Bell Labs 1934 papers and revolutionized speaker technology there have been few similar revolutionary improvements to the speaker. So- if you are an enterprising manufacturer of speakers (which are relatively cheap to build) how do you extract more and more money from the consumer ? Answer: Synthetic demand driven by cachet' ! Like a pair of Louis Vuitton sneakers @ $650 a pair vs. New Balance runners @ 60/pr. It's snobby bragging rights stuff I'm describing here- perceived vs. actual value in a product.
Here's an anecdotal example:
I recently set out to build a high end mid-fi system (ARC preamp, power amp, Dac 9) for a large room "main house" (not a listening room) system. The goal was big, full, rich sound in a room full of furniture, chow dogs, kids and untreatable other things like 20 foot ceilings, multiple openings such as a balcony to the upstairs bedrooms, etc. Basically an audiophile's nightmare.
I auditioned a number of speakers- Perlistens supported by JL Fathom subs, B&W Signatures, Bryston Model Ts, Vienna Acoustics Mahlers and Bethovens. IMO all of these are somewhat similar towers (except the Perlistens). The price point was not as important as the sound- given the limitations of the application.
In the shopping for new or used I found a number of odd prices. The most unusual finding was a brand new set of Model Ts here in Audiogon advertised for $4K with a 20 year factory warranty. The dealer had one slide around of his hand truck and it put white paint smears on a corner of the Boston Cherry cabinet. Hmmm- 4 grand vs. 12 grand for a small fixable cosmetic flaw? I bought them. They sound fantastic. Some elbow grease and a furniture marker pen made the flaw vanish.
I asked the dealer (Paul Kraft in Easton PA- great guy BTW) why the Audiogon Blue Book for a Model T was so low. His answer was "snob appeal". Apparently there is a big bragging rights premium paid for having the UFO looking B&W Signatures vs what the snobs call the Bryston Model Ts "Axioms in a fancy suit". I later learned that there are some prominent reviewers who refuse to listen to A/B speaker comparisons behind a silk curtain unless they know what brand is being scrutinized. To me that means "payola".
Do the Model Ts sound better to me than the Mahlers, Bethovens, B&Ws? No. But they don't sound worse either (in my application). Do the above sound $8,000-$14,000 better than the Brystons in the listening rooms of the dealers? IMO NO WAY. To be fair price/value does color my perception much like a bottle of $40 Rumbauer Zin tastes better to me than $200 Silver Oak expense account wine.
I'm guessing this post will anger brand snobs and garner snarky comments because their taste in sound is different than mine. Although this missive is really about personal perceptions of value v. sound I found my education on pricing fascinating and I feel great about finding amazing value in the brand new Model T's that needed 30 minutes of TLC to be at home in my family room.
Moral of the story: Try em before you buy em, and look for value. It's fun and rewarding with no buyers remorse.
I am tempted to build some myself .Like you I have a stash of premium hardwood-Birdseye and curly jarrah and Tasmanian Blackwood.
Hardwoods are not recommended for speaker enclosures.
Different hardwoods, depending on density and hardness, will have their own resonant behaviors that are usually centered over a narrow range, or ranges of frequencies.
MDF or birch ply, because of their construction and materials, have much better damped resonances, with lower peaks or dips. They are less likely to add their own sound to the music via resonance and ringing. But even then, to get extremely good results, they still benefit by further damping with things like: mass loaded vinyl, No Res, Green Glue Noise proofing compound, NVX sonic barrier on the inside of the panels.
There are videos on YT demonstrating how much more resonant and poorly damped hardwood is compared to MDF or ply. But all you have to do, is nock on a panel of MDF, then a panel of hardwood of the same dimensions, and the differences are easily audible.
Not to mention, hardwoods react to temperature and humidity changes much more, and will possibly crack, buckle, or pull away at the joints.
I can speak from experience. I originally built my Jeff Bagby woofer modules from 1" MDF, with a lot of bracing, and they sounded great. But after a few weeks, I added another layer of MDF with a layer of mass loaded vinyl between (for constrained layer damping), and the audible improvements were not difficult to hear.
The Aurender is the one I would like to try. I was considering Roon in the beginning but it seemed to be more than I needed. I can revisit it though. Thanks again.
Happy listening !
Ron…probably Aurender. Lumin is good as well but their app sucks. Also, you can eliminate the streamer altogether…if I’m not mistaking, your 866 is a Roon end point. I would at least try it free for 30 days to just see and hear if you like it. Roon has probably one of, if not the best UI. All you need is to install roon core on a computer that’s on the same network and use a tablet or a smart phone as remote. Run your ethernet cable straight into 866 and you’re done.
Thanks! I have been enjoying my time listening very much. I only use the node for streaming and with the Teddy Pardo LPS it seems quite good. I also really like the BluOS app. Having said that I would like to compare it with something else. What are your recommendations for a streamer only that is neutral and would be a nice step up from the node? And has a great control app as well.
@ronbocogreat looking system and room! But Bluesound Node into 866 with Rockports? C’mon man…That’s like topping your Ferrari gas tank off with donkey piss. You’ve got to get that one sorted out. Get a decent streamer for your high-end mid-fi system.
The Troels Gravesen Ekta 25 looks a great design for use with solid timber construction.Or solid timber over ply.Not a huge speaker but using very high quality Scanspeak drivers capable of beautiful tonality.Which is why Sonus Faber use them in some of their expensive models.
I am tempted to build some myself .Like you I have a stash of premium hardwood-Birdseye and curly jarrah and Tasmanian Blackwood.
I was a professional high-end furniture maker for 20 years, and really want to tackle one of the better kits or "plan" speakers. Have watched the Bagby Youtube's and others. I am drooling at the higher quality drivers. My remaining stash of high grade hardwood boards is just sitting there. Used to have a small bandmill through I ran veneer grade walnut and cherry logs. Advancing age halted my furniture business, but I can certainly handle a speaker build. I am only interested in the most proven designs and am not prepared to run acoustic analyzers in a hit or miss manner to determine maximum fidelity as I have seen some builders do.
Put me down as a big fan of kit speakers as well. I wish more people would DIY their audio gear, in general, as this would become less of a consumer and more of a builder like environment. More people with hands on experience with parts leads to less marketing BS.
The commercial ratio of driver cost to sales price is at least 10:1 in most cases (Fritz and other small builders rare exceptions). This ratio gets worse if they make their own drivers.
Not saying that part cost is the determinant factor in sound quality but rather that a DIYer has significant incentive to achieve excellent results which would otherwise be out of their reach.
Also, I have long ago given up the belief that $$$$ means quality or desirability for me. Sometimes more expensive is better but many times it is not. A true audiophile in my mind can tell the difference.
I have been reading through the Troels Gravesen kit speaker builder project pages.
Many of the people who have built those speakers also own very good "brand" models like B&W 802D and ATC SCM 40 speakers and are reporting that the $2500 kit speakers they have built sound much better.
Those sorts of speakers are hard to sell though.People turn their nose up at them because they do not have any brand snobbery appeal.
Same goes for Chinese Copy amplifiers of ultra high end European models like Dartzeel NHB 108 or FM 300A.They sound superb but most people do not want to know about them.
So many audiophiles are snobs and clearly not really in it primarily for sound quality.
I’ve been singing the praise of DIY speakers designed by the likes of Troels and Jeff Bagby, and others for years!
It is not unusual for DIY speakers by leading DIY designers to end up sounding better than commercially purchased speakers of at least 5 times the price.
My Jeff Bagby designed Auricle’s (RAAL tweeters, SB Acoustic mids), sitting on a pair of Jeff Bagby’s woofer modules (not subwoofers), sound as good as any $10K speaker. I have about $2200 in them.
I am also familiar with quite a few Chinese ’clone’ amps, and I agree, the good ones sound very, very close to the quality of the originals. Especially the ones with the "Sunbuck" label on them. And no, they are not stealing intellectual property. They are using circuit diagrams that have been freely available online for years.
I have been reading through the Troels Gravesen kit speaker builder project pages.
Many of the people who have built those speakers also own very good "brand" models like B&W 802D and ATC SCM 40 speakers and are reporting that the $2500 kit speakers they have built sound much better.
Those sorts of speakers are hard to sell though.People turn their nose up at them because they do not have any brand snobbery appeal.
Same goes for Chinese Copy amplifiers of ultra high end European models like Dartzeel NHB 108 or FM 300A.They sound superb but most people do not want to know about them.
So many audiophiles are snobs and clearly not really in it primarily for sound quality.
There seems to be a common mistake many people have with audio, and especially as it reaches the upper prices and echelon.
I see many people say things like, "is a $20K speaker really worth twice that of a $10K speaker?".
Well, no, if one is expecting exactly twice the performance. But that’s not what one should expect to get out of twice the money.
This is where the phrase, ’diminishing returns’ gets thrown around quite a bit. When it comes to audio, diminishing returns does not exist, in any way other than subjectively, per individual. There is absolutely no objective point of diminishing returns.
If spending an extra $10K for speakers, to get less than double the sound quality is worth it for one person, they did not yet meet their point of diminishing returns.
Just remember, for members here who scoff at mega-dollar audio, there are millions of people out there, who listen to MP3’s. on their smart phones, with $20 earbuds, who think even the most modest, few thousand dollar complete system, is ridiculous money to spend.
Over the last 50 years audio has evolved from a place where a lowly Sgt in the Army (Me) could buy a system of components that sounded terrific and music was the focus to where we are today.
I have had a modicum of success in life and can afford a system the value of a new Toyota, not the most expensive gear, but certainly of a quality level that satisfies my ears.
What I see now is people chasing a very small marginal gain at a huge cost. Married to an economist wife who appreciates music, we agree on the value of not chasing that beast that causes people to change gear in an elusive chase that often has no end. She is the one who said I could buy 20.7 Maggies if I wanted to, but we agreed that 3.6s were a better value at that time and would require a good bit less power.
Sometimes bigger / more expensive is not better. My 1958 Austin Healey Bugeye Sprite made me smile every time I drove it. Power nothing, no radio, wtc, but oeople regularly would wave, stop and say hi at stop lights, etc. The same is true after a certain point in audio, quality sound is a available without spending the moon.
What is often lost is the synergy among components, especially inputs and pre amps. Of course the room is a huge deal, but often compromises rule the day and tat 1/10 of 1 percent gain from huge expenditures gets lost in the room. No one spoke of source material during the speaker discussion. Are you spinning records, streaming, using R2R, etc. The chase can be addictive as we all know, yet the man driving a Ferrari Enzo will get more more pleasure out of his car than I have from my Bugeye, and we are both happy at the end of the day.
when i owned my 2016 Porsche CS2 for 18 months it was a garage Queen. a trophy. i drove it a few times a week in the summer. put 3000 miles on it. made me smile.
but i listened to my system with multi-6 figure speakers 3-5 hours a day. every day of the year.
no contest. the speakers had an infinitely higher ROI.....both in use and snob appeal and visitors to my room seemed to enjoy them regularly too.
just my 2 cents."
I agree with Mike Lavigne , while I never had a Porche, my Vette doesn't get much use .... my humble system does get used daily, every day. Much better value and ROI for sure.
My Dad just picked up a pair of Sonus Electa Amator III. When I listen to them any doubt whether they were worth the money quicly disappears. They sound incredible and hopefully will give him just as much , or probably more enjoyment than the SF Concertos that the just retired. They are on long term loan to me and still sound great.
The industry is exploiting the audio truth that ’you get what you pay for’ and delivering to the misguided expectations of deep-pocketed buyers who equate the highest prices with ‘better’ and ‘best’.
The owner of a hifi shop described how he would recommend a particular pair of Magnepans as his best sounding speakers on offer, but customers would judge by the price and they’d look onward to the more expensive sets, they’d say, ‘Those are nice, but tell me about these over here.’
As a result, for example, an amplifier brand and a speaker brand were both separately given the same business advice: ‘You’re selling that for $3000? Charge $10,000.’
We do indeed get what we pay for in the sense that audio equipment is about quality components in the signal path.
Every choice a manufacturer makes down to the choice to use a higher quality resistor affects the balance sheet and raises the price.
Steve McCormack’s description of his quest to build the best preamplifier is a revelation, and many others have talked about this.
But, while it’s true that quality audio equipment is expensive to produce, the ones with more money than they know what to do with have skewed the market, and the industry is happy to take their money.
recognition from peers is the most important thing! Brand image.
I'm just fascinated by these cheap class D mini-amps which get hyped to infinity due to excellent measurements but sound "meh" at best and the power ratings are overshot.
And on the high end of midrange folks are spending a fortune on vintage Klipsch, JBL and LS3/5A speakers. Or Marantz/Pioneer amplifiers.
This hobby is 99% marketing and hype. I'm sorry. But you can use that to your advantage and score a sweet vintage system for dirt cheap if nobody cares about the brand. I'm specifically hinting towards the 1990s or 2000s (the dark ages of HiFi LOL) and the UK brands outside of B&W, Naim, KEF or NAD.
I am certain of one thing about this hobby: recognition from peers is the most important thing! Brand image.
I'm just fascinated by these cheap class D mini-amps which get hyped to infinity due to excellent measurements but sound "meh" at best and the power ratings are overshot.
And on the high end of midrange folks are spending a fortune on vintage Klipsch, JBL and LS3/5A speakers. Or Marantz/Pioneer amplifiers.
This hobby is 99% marketing and hype. I'm sorry. But you can use that to your advantage and score a sweet vintage system for dirt cheap if nobody cares about the brand. I'm specifically hinting towards the 1990s or 2000s (the dark ages of HiFi LOL) and the UK brands outside of B&W, Naim, KEF or NAD.
@grislybutter....amazing how a lot of things are better in the dark.... ;)
The lights' coming on is when "Should I stay or should I go...." *L*
@mofojo, well...I've had the varied pleasure of running into a lot of bipeds in this existential bane, and imh, the 'well-heeled' can be just as warm or m-f'd as the average broke-ass sort....
It can hinge on ones' approach, and what follows it up.
If the chip on your shoulder is bigger than the block one calls their head, it goes downhill from there.... ;)
Many high end speakers are horribly engineered because they are pigs to drive and therefore severely limit your choice of amplifiers.Wilsons ,Magico and B&W are examples of that.Wilson Sasha dips down to 2 ohms in the bass and the Magicos and B&Ws are not much better!And then they cheat on their specs by expressing sensitivity in db/watt/2.87 volts/1 metre when it should be db/watt/1watt/1 metre.Which means many of these speakers are really more like 82db/watt/metre.Which means you need some monster high power/high current/hot running lump of an amplifier to run them properly.
"OK I don’t want to insult you, but you really did listen to a lot of cheaper mdf partial board or wooden speakers. These sound like boxes.
B&W is kind of bottom or the Barrel with Dynaudio and KEF and all that stuff and is lower tier. Good speakers tend to cost the same as a luxury BMW or Mercedes for a reason. My speakers were $58,750"
Sounds like you are particularly well suited to discuss snob appeal.
When it sounds like flapping cheeks and is priced an arm and a leg, it generally tends to be one of those snob brands with prestige seeking fanboys ( dudes with relatively lower inner core self-worth in 'compensation mode').
But, when it actually sounds stunning and is priced an arm and a leg, well...pay up if you can and stop the 'sour grapes' snobbery accusations.
jji666 gets it. This system was designed and acquired in pieces on the cheap as a family room system at the beach house. It's not a listening room system. duh.
It's amazing how reflexively people jump to "max offended status" rather than carefully considering the post. One snob even took to insulting my will and capacity to have an absolute sound system. Gee whiz what do you do with such snobby condescending people? Misery loves company I guess....
Other folks were kind and congratulatory. Many thanks! Men of good will toast other's successes. I've learned that the wealthiest people (like the Ferrari club guys at the Cavallino in Palm Beach for example) are the easiest going and warmest. Broke jokers see rich guys acting snobby on TV and think that's the way rich people act. So they are really faux rich guy posing. Or they have puny units and E.D.. With some exceptions (jerks come in all walks of life) the richer the man the warmer he is.
Good Hifi gear costs money. Lots of it. I'd guess most audiophiles are affluent and have other expensive hobbies too. I for one have really enjoyed my 44 year Hifi journey. Good years and bad years. Divorces and remarriages. Good kids and bad ones. Audiogon is a fun place to share stories and practice writing skills. It's also really educational. Cheers to you gents!
Hate to pop your bubble but there are new speaker designs out there that offer great sound for the money. My Revival Audio Atalante 3 monitors are the first to use basalt in the driver membrane. The designer used to design for other well known brands (Dynaudio, Focal-JM Labs) and he undercuts their prices by about 2/3s all the while making them in country in France.
The dome design is unique as well as the coating he uses on them. If you have a decent computer set up, check out this YouTube video and skip to 1:50 (unless you understand the language) and see how they stand up to (if not outshine) a pair of more expensive Dynaudios and Totems. Then factor in the price of the Atalante 3s at $2500/pair.
This caught my eye as well, and initially I took it as a snobby comment since only snobby people refer to their stuff as high-end (un-snobby people might call someone else's stuff high end) and mid-fi is kind of an insult. However, after some thought, I think the OP simply meant to indicate that he wanted a quality system that is not his main listening room and so wasn't targeting the absolute sound.
I can understand why some felt insulted by the theme of the post, but there's no denying that people name-drop their gear so as to sound wealthy or "in the know."
It may have been different years ago, but at this point, no one cares about an expensive audio system except those that have them.
Here is what I have learned. There is no reason to keep up with the Jones. I am gifted and built my own speakers. I always have. Why, because I have never made the kind if money to afford ARC, Bryston, B&W. I did hear B&W at Best Buy being played from an expensive higher end reciever. They were in the $2,000 / pair range and were dual 6" model. I laughed, shook my head and was quite pleased I built my own. I walked in to another room, heard Martin Logan, with a built in sub. Now, that was very nice, better than mine. But, not for the cost difference, and, I still liked mine very much when I got home and cranked on music.. Would I trade mine for logans, of course. Are they worth the money to me? No, but if I had a ton of extra cash, they would certainly be great to own. So I don't blame people with money wanting quality. Some people just want expensive when a cheaper equivalent would be better. This includes speaker wire and cables. Look what I have, one up on Jones. Not all high end speakers or electronics sounds good. I have heard many over the years. I live in MN. I own 2 kayaks. No boat, no 4 wheelers, no jet ski. I am happy with what I have and need to be. I will never have a yacht, or a butler either. I don't need it to be happy. If I come into a lot of cash, then I can have nicer things. Right now, I have a great family full of love. And a great budgeted audio system.
"I recently set out to build a high end mid-fi system (ARC preamp, power amp, Dac 9) for a large room "main house" (not a listening room) system. The goal was big, full, rich sound in a room full of furniture, chow dogs, kids and untreatable other things like 20 foot ceilings, multiple openings such as a balcony to the upstairs bedrooms, etc. Basically an audiophile's nightmare. "
So basically you can't spend enough to get a decent system and can't afford to have a dedicated sound room of high quality. You compensate for this lack by pithy word salad comments justifying why you can't afford to do it right I guess. Really enjoying this weekly AG update as it is fraught with nonsense.
When I look at a Wilson, I always think that someone designed a relatively ugly looking speaker and then they called in the "finisher" to make it super unpleasant to look at.
When my wife came with me to a top of the line Wilson demo of what was back then $250K speakers, she listened to the system and liked it. While I was talking with the head Wilson guy she came up to us and asked him why the speakers look so ugly, like Darth Vader. The Wilson dude was not too happy about that comment.
She recently told me she was happy I sold my 2 penis’s, my Thiel CS3.7’s.
Myself,. I like to get speakers from companies that do a lot of research and have manufacturing scale. I think you get a lot of bang for your buck that way. The 2 speakers that I currently own that fall into that category are KEF (LS50 Meta + KC62 sub) and Yamaha (NS5000).
When I look at a Wilson, I always think that someone designed a relatively ugly looking speaker and then they called in the "finisher" to make it super unpleasant to look at.
@ronboco The Boulder is decent. The Modwright has a little bit bigger power transformer and tube preamp is going to give it a slightly wider and deeper sound stage. If you upgrade to a Lampizator Baltic 4 I can help you get into one that will be all the tubes you need for now. That will be a bigger impact than the amp. Sophia electric tubes and LinLai will be what you need for the Lampi.
I watch a lot of reviews on Youtube and have recently been struck by how many listeners - whether they be high-enders or stubborn mid-fi sympathizers - seem star-struck by recent Wilson offerings. However, what spoils the party is the additional cost of the components worthy of driving them in the manner to which they are accustomed. Still, you can see them mentally dreaming and scheming about stratospherics more than I remember.
I heard the Aida at Axpona last year (22) and they were nice. A coincidence they were running Boulder amps as I have the 866 integrated powering my Aviors. I would be curious how a hybrid like you have would sound. Maybe some day.
@ronbocoNew Sonus Faber Aida is great! Rockport as well makes amazing speakers. On tubes…Preamp/DAC with tubes won’t cook the room. A tube power amp you can roast marshmallows on and if you like Rockport you will need a solid state output. My Modwright only has 2 tubes on the balanced preamp buffer. The rest is solid state. 225watts into 8 and 400 into 4 ohms.
That is quite a few speakers you have heard. I listened to Sonus Fabre , Wilson DAW, Magico S5, B@W 801, but I liked the Rockport Avior ii the best. There might be some tweaks here and there but for the most part I am done. I would like to give tubes a try but my room is smaller and I thought it would heat it up too much. Maybe one day.
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