Wow it looks like you can buy most of those tables on Amazon. How can you go wrong!
I clicked through for the Clearaudio Ovation. The link is for the belt. 
Turntables currently considered top of the range. Do you know what they are ?
I haven't been following this for a number of years. Just curious.
Does any of you have one of those ?
"Top of the range" is British English, that was intentional. When I think turntables, at least under $50k or so, I always first think British.
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From What Hi Fi also, a more down to earth, yet still expensive turntable list. “Best high-end record players 2025: ultimate premium turntables tested by experts”. |
@newton_john I agree with you, the Bedrok does seem to be priced at a point that is not that attractive. However, like most things in this hobby, I suspect one will come along on the used market, priced at a fraction of new. That would be the time to jump. Patience is the key here. |
@dwette It’s really dependent on your floor, rack, positioning relative to speakers, and how loud you play. I’ve pushed it on all accounts, except for the fact I don’t run subs, at least. The rumble filters built into phono stages are generally pretty mild - they can help, but not enough in some cases. The KAB filter is much steeper and works well, though perhaps not 100% sonically transparent as advertised. Isolation platforms like from HRS and CMS seem most effective in midrange - my CMS ones didn’t help solve LF issues. LF energy issues can be quite hard to deal with. Anyways, sounds like you’ve got it all squared away for your setup, and you should benefit from and enjoy your Master upgrade all the same! Great table. I’m happy you’ll get the latest version. I’d really like that for mine, but it would probably be hard to pull off without a lot of additional funds. Clearaudio has worked in improvements over the years, which I like better than the whole Mk 1, 2, 3 [SE] type schemes. |
@mulveling Thanks for the detailed and very helpful response. I hope to do that upgrade later this year. I really haven't had any issues with woofer flapping on my Innovation Wood with the Universal arms. I do have it sitting on a HRS R3X isolation platform, with the LF feet factory tuned specifically for the turntable. I have a pair of REL S/510 subs so I should notice if I had an issue. My Boulder phono-stage has a 10Hz low cut filter and I don't notice any difference with it engaged. |
I forgot to mention how the VPIs sound versus Clearaudio and SOTA. Aries 3, Avenger Ref. They’re darker sounding. Especially with the 3D and Fatboy arms (I honestly liked the late make metal unipivots). There is a bass-reinforcement effect that can be fun, and some like. In my setup they were extremely reactive to feedback in audible bass frequencies, say 60 - 120 Hz. I think this is part of their sound. The CA Innovations can be reactive in the subsonic range (woofer flapping), due to the magnetic "float" bearing, but are SUPER clean and quiet through the audible specturm. I think this is why VPIs pair well with Van den Huls, which have super clean bass, a lot of HF energy and firehose of details. With Colibris you can find yourself staving off sibilance, but Crimson & VPI was a really nice balance. I still ended up liking the metal uni better, but see why some like the Fatboys. The plain 3D arm, ugh I hated it. |
I always think Linn LP12 because that’s the one that I have been most familiar with. Maybe, it’s short sighted of me but I’ve never felt the need to look at anything more exotic than an LP12. For a short while, my Klimax LP12 has been at the top of the tree, until Bedrok came along this year. I can’t see me ever buying the new plinth given the disappointingly high cost. Yet reports indicate it is a significant upgrade for the money, so never say never. |
@dwette The the extra mass (especially in platter) definitely makes a positive difference - in both sonics, and the fact that I’ve experienced (sometimes) woofer flapping with the Compact and Wood but NOT the Master, despite ALL kinds of thrashing with loud music :) The Innovations (Compact / Wood / Master) share very similar sound signature - super clean midband, superb detail, pristine & smooth treble, clean bass - while remaining quite musical. The bearings are all dead quiet and smooooth. The Master just seems extra dynamic and powerful. I also have SOTAs I like quite a bit - Nova V, Cosmos IV - they’re a tad warmer and "fuzzier" sounding than Clearaudios (sometimes this warmth is nice), very musical, and have GREAT isolation built in (especially Cosmos). I like them a lot. But the best sounding source I’ve ever had is Master / FR64S / Koetsu Blue Lace Diamond - decisively so. The FR64S can’t fit on a SOTA, only the lighter FR64fx, and these things do make a difference. At times I’ve thought about selling the Master, since the SOTAs seem to get quite close, but at the end of the day - no, I just can’t! I’m certain I would regret it too much. The build is exceptional and it’s a gorgeous statement table. You know what, I just amped myself up again on how much I love it lol.
@inna |
@mulveling For the Master Innovation field upgrade the whole bearing assembly for the Innovation part is removed and replaced with a new beefed-up one included in the upgrade kit. The result is the same as the current retail unit. My Innovation Wood was purchased August 2023 so it’s a relatively newer one. If you go to the Clearaudio website the Master Innovation product page has the manual for the field upgrade. You can see exactly how that upgrade all works. What did you think of the difference between the Wood and the Master? |
Yeah the field-upgrade was a selling point when I bought a brand new Innovation Wood, exactly 12 years ago. In the end, I "upgraded" by buying a minty used Master Innovation (dealer floor model) for less than the upgrade price alone, and then sold my Innovation Wood on top of that. One thing I’ve noticed, that’s seemingly not published nor explained by Clearaudio - my Master is a VERY early unit circa 2013, in fact its serial # is either # 2 or 3 (I forget which). More recent Master Innovations show a very beefed-up center column (holding the long bearing shaft), which should increase the table’s mass and rigidity. How is that reconciled with the field upgrade - or do all field upgrades assume the smaller-sized center column, since that’s what (I think) all Innovation Woods have? In general - upgrade paths from high-end turntables companies - oof, very expensive. |
Any thoughts on the Holbo deck from Slovenia? It combines an air bearing turntable with a linear tracking tonearm, which also runs on air. Driven by rubber bands, though! Got an excellent review: Holbo Mk II Airbearing Turntable Review | StereoNET International |
@inna knowing what to do with the devices is far more important than what devices they are! If you really want to figure out what turntable has it right, the best way is to compare it against master tapes using an LP made from the master tapes. But to do that the platter pad and tonearm are variables, as is the cartridge and the phono section's ability to get it right. Again, master tapes are really helpful :) Decent recording equipment is not that expensive WRT some of the prices I've seen on this thread already, so going thru the effort to make a good quality recording and putting it on LP does not seem that crazy in such light. FWIW, that is why I use a Technics SL1200G. I use a different platter pad since the original does not do its job properly. I also have it perched on a very nice anti-vibration platform and equipment stand designed for it. You need to control variables like this if you really want to get down to the nub of it. The Technics arm on the 1200G gives a lot of 'high end audio' tonearms a run for the money, but I prefer the Triplanar which can be mounted on the Technics with a proper arm board.
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I suspect that's a one-off issue that should/could have been fixed. I've had two different Clearaudio turntables for the last 14 years and they maintain spot on accurate speed all the time. |
From my experience, nothing has the sound quality of the Kronos turntables from Montreal, Canada. As you've probably seen they use a second counter-rotating platter. This cancels the sideways torque placed upon the suspension. This means they can use a suspension, which has real sonic advantages. You can truly hear the difference. Every time I hear an analog system with a Kronos in it there's something special about the sound. |
@whart +1
Late last year I asked Upscale Audio in LA [I think one of the bigger places out there] to set up a demo to show that there are differences in sound just from plinth-arm, so two set-ups with same cart on same electronics. Their choice of tables, carts, anything, just to see whether plinths-arm actually makes an audible difference. They flat out refused. And I have been a repeat customer with them. So I blind-bought a Rega NAIA package. All the grandstanding "never buy anything without auditioning it first" does not work in the real world. Is there anything better, something I will like better? Maybe, but I will never find out. |
Basis tables & arms made in NH our excellent at all their levels. Couldn’t say for sure but I’ll bet their models 2200 or 2800 w/ a Vector 4 arm gets you most of what the really top turntables do for a “high” but not “insane” price. Of course you can go higher in their line if so desired. The engineering & build quality are very high. My 20 year old 2500 still works perfectly & sounds excellent. |
@yoyoyaya I’m aware of the Unity, and have talked to Ken Bowers about it. I have two Universal 12" tonearms. The Unity – at $20K (less the trade allowance for Universal arms offered) – isn’t really on my radar, so it’s mostly pointless to compare it to what I have (and am happy with)...not that I have the opportunity to anyway. |
That’s mostly correct. The Master field upgrade for the regular Innovation results in a full Master Innovation. There is no difference whatsoever between an upgraded Innovation and the retail Master Innovation. The cost of the upgrade is pretty much the difference between them. The Innovation (with no tonearm) is ~$15K + ~$19K for the Master upgrade. The Master Innovation is ~$34K (no tonearm). I am referring to prices for the piano black finish since that is what I have. The regular Panzerholz finish is about $2k less (or $1k each for Innovation + upgrade). I have heard the Master Innovation with the 9" Universal arm and Clearaudio Statement Goldfinger cartridge on a Boulder/Dynaudio system. It was really impressive.
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@lewm, to supplement what dwette says above, the Master Innovation upgrade is pretty close to buying a second Innovation turntable with all of the parts count that goes with that and that is what the price reflects. The new Clearaudio Unity arm is also pretty amazing. |
I don’t think it is on a level playing field for a controlled comparison-- b/c upstairs where the main system is, I could not get the SP-10 to isolate, even with a heavy plinth, rubber feet and a big Ginko cloud. The SP-10 does duty in the vintage system on the ground floor, centered around Quad ’57s, using antiques, an Mc 110z preamp tuner, and a pair of old Quad IIs from the late ’50s early ’60s. Everything was gone over by the late Bill Thalmann, and top glass in everything, but still, it is a limited bandwidth, limited dynamics system, and would not make for a fair comparison, @Inna. PS: the model is the early one, before the mk ii and iii and does not benefit from the further refinements in motor and heavy platter, though it is somewhat scarce in the wild. I have owned it for more than 50 years and wanted to put it back in use, rather than buy a new table for the purposes it is used.
On the Brinkman, I couldn’t believe the difference it made favoring the tube. I’m not sure why, since it isn’t directly in the audio path, but there it was. |
The name change isn't the point and you know better if I'm not mistaken. Have you heard a Master Innovation? I have. It's a pretty amazing deck. |
@overthemoon Linn is near Glasgow, Scotland; however, Rega is not in Scotland. They are headquartered in Essex, England, which is in the southeast closer to London. |
The question to me is how you evaluate this in the real world, given the limitations that most brick and mortar dealers have, aside from their choice of top tier brand(s), which may limit you. I would never say no to another table, or suggest that what I run is the "best"-- so many different factors, including arm mounting facilities, space, even aesthetics come into play. And isolation can be a beyotch with a high mass turntable. I actually had a structural engineer come here when we bought the place to evaluate isolating a Kuzma XL on an HRS plinth. He said no way. I use the biggest Minus K desk top for it, and it eliminates the footfall risks in an old landmark wooden house. Downstairs I run an early SP-10 that I bought new in 1973. I’ve heard (or not heard) various other high end tables over the years, from the Rockport to Albert’s SP-10 set up using Panzerholz, to the Brinkman that used a tube motor controller, to the Kronos. Have not heard the TechDas to my recollection. Lots of choices, and when you add up cost of arm(s), phono cartridges, cable and phono stage, it’s a big commitment. I had a lot of records, so moving on up made sense. I had the Kuzma Reference with a Triplanar and the XL with Airline outperformed it in several respects (using the same cartridge), but you need to deal with isolation and an air compressor, and utilize a low compliance cartridge for best results in my estimation. Most "lists" of great tables are likely not to get disagreement from me. I really think it depends on the user and some of the factors I mentioned above. |
Dohmann, the same man who designed the Continuum tables. No wonder. Most will think that belt drive is the way to go, certainly at the top level. But this is an endless discussion. It's like some will only listen to horn speakers. As a tape man, not a vinyl man, I don't think I am biased. Whatever sounds more right to me.
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