What exactly is PRaT???

the founder of Linn discussing the philosophic origins of his LP12 turntable

Was it the Thorens TD-150 that Linn knocked off? 😂😂

@soix To understand PRat, you have to understand that the ear/brain system has tipping points. If the system is too distorted, if its too slow, stuff like that, the music processing (which normally occurs in the limbic portion of the brain) is transferred to the cerebral cortex.

So the system has to be fast enough, smooth enough, detailed enough such that the music is processed in the limbic system. That way you get a more emotional reaction- more toe tapping and so on.

So a variety of things are going on, which is why there's no consensus above.

@stuartk 

Ever heard of irony or phrasemes (fixed expressions)?​ ​​​

Nothing criminal, of course. However, I do remember, some 40 years ago, at Harvey's (long-defunct mid- to high-end stereo shop in NYC) I, a customer, was trying to impress upon a salesman the importance of source-first approach to a stereo system. He cut me off: "I don't want to hear this BS". That was the time when both Linn and Naim tried to spread their Gospel, and other Hi-Fi manufacturers, their competitors, often mocked them (many still do).

BTW, I have been a committed Linn/Naim man ever since.

“Brits and Aussies would say that anyone who doesn't get PRaT must be a prat!”

:)

@asvjerry  , were you in the flood zone?

Brits and Aussies would say that anyone who doesn't get PRaT must be a prat!

Pitch, Rhythm and Time

@mkorsunsky

Why "partners in crime" ?

What is "criminal" about PRaT and how can any definition of music exclude harmony?

"Didn't someone say music is comprised of 2 things, rhythm and melody?"

Yes, that was Ivor Tiefenbrun, the founder of Linn, discussing the philosophic origins of his LP12 turntable in an interview many years ago. The term PRaT, I believe, originate with some people at Naim, Linn's partners in crime at the time.

The tube amps that sit next to the Audion based system always sound most Prat-ey after a few hours of warm-up in the early evening before a midnightish listening session. Time of day is a factor or rather the state of the "grid" which tends to be more Prat sounding after midnight. Also, the tube amps (pre and power) transformers have warmed up enough to be "saturated." State of the grid and transformer saturation have a big bearing on PRAT in this household and moreso with the tube amps than the GanFet amps.

@nonoise Yes that helps. Even though can’t hear them I will research. They must have a really good x-over. BTW, I have that same tuner circa 2001. Bought before Marantz did their major downgrade.

@soix 

"Really?  Seriously???  Why are you even here if you don’t get these simple concepts?"

You already asked me that and I answered you.

....the Kimmel version has some serious bass... 

...theme for the next 4+ years. Yes

PRaT...a newish ’buzz’ acronym to kick about ’n argue about.... ;)

I'm annoyed....deal...:(

@cdc , Sure, I've mentioned it before so it's not like it's some secret. 

My integrated is the Technics SU-G700M2 with the matching  SL-G700 SACD player. My speakers are the Revival Audio Atalante 3 monitors w/matching stands. My cabling consists of Darwin Audio speaker cables and interconnects and the power cords are a mix of TWL and Zu Audio with a Audioquest Niagara 1200 power and conditioner/surge protector. I also use IsoAcoustic Oreas under the integrated and SACD player and I have an old Marantz ST6000 tuner that is now quite satisfying to listen to thanks to the aforementioned. 

As usual, YMMV but for me, I'm quite content until I win the lottery and dig deeper for the bigger Atalante 5 speakers to use in a bigger, dedicated place. Hope that helps to point the way or at least give an idea of what can work.

All the best,
Nonoise

A please define for me what "imaging" and "3D soundstage" mean.  In relation to what?  And why are they important?

@dogearedaudio  Really?  Seriously???  Why are you even here if you don’t get these simple concepts?  

"this is one fast system".

@nonoise  care to share what it is?

Some get it,

Some don't,

All the best,
Nonoise

Pace is the speed, rhythm is the repetitive beat, timing is the emphasis. Music, stand-up comedy, the stage, film, writing--success in these crafts is largely defined by these three simple but discrete elements.

@dogearedaudio +1. Alec Guinness, Anthony Hopkins IMHO made you want to listen to them and convincing because of the way they used Prat to express their lines.

How do you listen to pace and rhythm? Forget about it.

@jayctoy You don’t listen to it like detail imaging etc. You feel it.

Didn't someone say music is comprised of 2 things, rhythm and melody?

@dogearedaudio 

Did you bring up Klemperer because of the phenomenal PRAT he brought to the Beethoven symphonies? My mother introduced me to the vinyl boxed set of Klemperer's Beethoven symphonies. That absolutely mind blowing explosion in the Ode To Joy 4th movement where all the instruments fly into the vortex simultaneously is the most PRAT-ey thing I have ever heard. Pretty sure that moment when first heard ushered me into puberty all those years ago.

@dogearedaudio 

Did you bring up Klemperer because of the phenomenal PRAT he brought to the Beethoven symphonies? My mother introduced me to the vinyl boxed set of Klemperer's Beethoven symphonies. That absolutely mind blowing explosion in the Ode To Joy 4th movement where all the instruments fly into the vortex simultaneously is the most PRAT-ey thing I have ever heard. Pretty sure that moment when first heard ushered me into puberty all those years ago.

@bolong

There’s a long-standing discussion in the classical world concerning famous conductors who "slowed down" as they aged, some rather drastically, and whether this was related to cardiovascular health. Otto Klemperer was a notable example. In his younger years he adopted brisk tempos and a rather fierce attack, and but in old age his recordings took on a stately (some would say sluggish) and monolithic character.  

PRaT, propulsion and speed overlap so much as to render a venn diagram a fuzzy circle. Can't have one without the other two (to some degree) if you want realism. It's part of the completion of the illusion of realism. 

Until my present system, I never quite got there. I've said before that it must be partially due to serendipity as it all came together so quickly and so convincingly. People I've had over all had the same reaction: "this is one fast system". One even said it twice in the space of a minute with a shocked look on his face. 

It wasn't until my present system that I caught myself swinging my foot or leg for long periods of time and not getting fatigued by it. The body motions and the tempo of the music were as one, varying as the timing changed. I was bemused by it and yet enjoyed it to no end. Maybe it's why I just stopped looking for anything else, and find myself, at times, bemused by some of the responses on these threads. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@soix

Paul McGowan: "What is PRaT and do the British do it Better?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGgMpX3XII

FWIW, he says, regarding pace, rhythm and timing, "I think it’s one of those things that, if you haven’t ever experienced them, it’s hard to describe". He asserts that, although PRaT is not a top priority for him, he's found it can and does vary, depending upon the gear used.

This is my experience as well, although I’m in no way suggesting I’m in a remotely similar category when it comes to experience/knowledge as P. M.

To me, it’s best described as a "propulsive quality" that cannot be defined solely in terms of BPM. Scientifically, this sounds ridiculous but for some of us, at least, it’s palpable. Perhaps there’s an as-yet-unexplored physiological aspect to this that comes into play.

Perhaps it should be "Pulse, Rhythm and Timing." I have often wondered whether musical timing is governed however subtly by the heart rate of the musician which must vary according to the demands the music is making on the performer and the demands the performer is making on the music. The heart can be likened to a metronome residing in the chest, and its interaction with music making could be creating a very subtle poly-rhythm in the musical performance that sometimes urges the musician into altered and sublime states that are both familiar and novel at the same time and which strike the listeners the same way.

Effect of Music On the Cardiovacular System

Speakers from Joseph Audio, Magico, Audio Physic, Vandersteen, Totem, Marten, Thiel, get imaging and soundstage.  Simple in your face speakers like JBL or Klipsch speakers, not so much.  They are in your face and can’t capture the beauty and Grace of better recordings.  They do what they do.  They’re in your face hit you with slam speakers and good on them for what they do.  But they’re just rock n roll speakers for head bangers cause that’s what they do and they’re limited and can’t do the finer points of music.  They just can’t.  They ain’t built that way, and that’s ok for people who want that “sound.” 

I’m shocked, shocked I tell you, that we’re arguing over PRaT. 

Look if you can’t grok what PRaT is then maybe consider your room and how it’s messing up what you think is the sound of your amazing system. 

@dogearedaudio Yeah, I agree timing, pace, and rhythm, whatever that is is important and significant, but I just don’t get or sense it. When you can “see” the three dimensional images of musicians performing in a 3D space I get that. That they’re somehow behind the beat, no, I don’t get that cause the music was recorded the way it was recorded. I just don’t get what a “slow” system sounds like. But I know Linn can’t make speakers I like because they sound like shite and nasally and I can hear it 10 yards out the door. They might do PRaT but they don’t do tone or soudstaging in any realm IMHO. ,

Oh, I think we're probably more on the same page than not.  I didn't say I don't *understand* 3D imaging or soundstage.  I asked for definitions.  Those definitions would have to include the word "illusion," which is what they are, illusions.  But they are definitely real phenomena.  By the same token, I believe that certain equipment affects our perception of pace, timing and rhythm in a way that is also an illusion, but is also a genuine phenomenon.

A please define for me what "imaging" and "3D soundstage" mean.  In relation to what?  And why are they important?

@dogearedaudio  You and I are clearly on different planets when it comes to sound.  If you don’t understand what imaging and 3D soundstage are then you have compromised hearing and/or a compromised system not capable of producing it.  I’m guessing you have your Klipsch or Bose speakers stapled to the wall to not understand imaging or soundstage.  But, I don’t get PRaT so that’s maybe my hearing deficiency.  To each his own I guess, and that’s what makes the audio world go ’round.  

The book also mentioned Rhythm and pace are more important in rock , jazz, blues , pop , and other form of music than in classical.

Robert Harley’s book Complete Guide to High end audio page 56 Prat means Pace Rhythm and Timing.according to Harley How do you listen to pace and rhythm? Forget about it. And if you find yourself wanting to dance the component probably has it.

Dancing is very important to people who play music with a beat. I think that people who don't dance, or who never did dance, don't really understand the beat... I know musicians who don't and never did dance, and they have difficulty communicating.

@audition__audio And subjectivity is just stupid when it comes to music, right?

@tunehead Provides the only realistic answer. Dirk and Lerxst approved.

I do not see his post.

PRaT is just another stupid subjective term. 

A please define for me what "imaging" and "3D soundstage" mean.  In relation to what?  And why are they important?

@soix

Yes, I've played instruments, though not very well.  But I've been an actor, singer, stage director and audiobook narrator for over 40 years.  I certainly know what pace, rhythm and timing mean.  They're essential to the work I do every day!  I utterly fail to see what it is you want defined.  Surely you've played with musicians who can't keep time, or who don't "swing," or who don't convey any nuance or subtlety in their performances.  There are audio systems that fail in this regard as well.  Whether you've heard them or not I couldn't say.  You seem to be highly resistive to the idea that such a thing could exist.   I have no idea why.  Woolly, sloppy bass in a speaker or amp is simply not going to convey the basic snap of the rhythm properly.  If the midrange is bleached out I'm going to miss some of the subtle timings a singer might inject into a performance.   I can't understand why this is hard to grasp.

Seriously? What could be more essential to the performing arts than pace, rhythm and timing? And what could be more easily comprehensible? Pace is the speed, rhythm is the repetitive beat, timing is the emphasis.

@dogearedaudio  Why is it that people here are having such a hard time defining it?   We can define tonality.  We can define imaging and 3D soundstage.  We can define a speaker’s disappearing act.  Seriously?  I’m a drummer and if I’m locked in with my bass player the band is on, so pretty sure I get timing, rhythm, and pace.  What you’re talking about that should be so easy to hear isn’t so in my book.  Do you even play an instrument?   

@mashif 

Nicely put. ;-)

Objectivity is generally in short supply around audio and music. It's all in our heads. But it doesn't seem hard to imagine that some speaker and amp combinations differ in how quickly the drivers respond to transients and how quickly a large diaphragm can reverse direction. It might be measurable but it's certainly audible. I think it's just a term someone coined to describe systems that do it well. 

Seriously? What could be more essential to the performing arts than pace, rhythm and timing? And what could be more easily comprehensible? Pace is the speed, rhythm is the repetitive beat, timing is the emphasis. Music, stand-up comedy, the stage, film, writing--success in these crafts is largely defined by these three simple but discrete elements. I happen to think that it’s a rather brilliant bit of linguistic compression that captures in one acronym the success or failure of an audio system to convey the essentials of what makes listening to recorded music enjoyable.

So far no one has been able to give a reasonable objective definition of it that folks agree upon and makes sense to the folks trying to understand which says to me that no one really knows what it is.

@jastralfu Bingo!!!  That’s exactly what I’m sayin’.  

PRAT to me is a little something. Doesn’t take much in the upper mid bass. Punch 🤛 . 

I keep reading words like transient response, time aligned drivers, authenticity, musicality to describe PRaT. Why not just use those words rather than some esoteric acronym? It also seems to be as much a property of the music itself as the system on which it is being played and the listeners connection to the music. It seems to me that any system can be regarded as having these elements if it’s engaging and musical to the person who put it together. So far no one has been able to give a reasonable objective definition of it that folks agree upon and makes sense to the folks trying to understand which says to me that no one really knows what it is.

@soix

No. I do not. A system either plays music the way I perceive it or it does not.

Well, that’s pretty definitive! Considering the fact that you are a drummer and (I presume) very familiar with how rhythms "feel" in your body, I don’t feel qualified to challenge you on this.

I have noticed over the years that reviews by Brits seem to often mention PRaT. It would be interesting to ask Tarun (A British Audiophile) what it means to him.

One question: do you experience some systems as more rhythmically engaging  than others?

Some are definitely more engaging for me than others are; however I never attributed it to having to do with "rhythmically".