What exactly is PRaT???
Ok, it’s like this thing and is associated with “toe tapping” and such. I confess, I don’t get it. Apparently companies like Linn and Naim get it, and I don’t and find it a bit frustrating. What am I missing? I’m a drummer and am as sensitive as anyone to timing and beats, so why don’t I perceive this PRaT thing that many of you obviously do and prize as it occurs in stereo systems? When I read many Brit reviews a lot of attention goes to “rhythm” and “timing” and it’s useless to me and I just don’t get it. If someone can give me a concrete example of what the hell I’m not getting I’d sincerely be most appreciative. To be clear, enough people I greatly respect consider it a thing so objectively speaking it’s either something I can’t hear or maybe just don’t care about — or both. Can someone finally define this “thing” for me cause I seriously wanna learn something I clearly don’t know or understand.
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@ghdprentice You're welcome! Yes, 40 years of being a drummer certainly doesnt hurt. Knowledge of 'good' sound quality? The only parameter with good SQ, is realistic or accurate. A cymbal (keeping it simple) that sounds compressed (ie squished dynamics), is not natural or accurate. No such thing as PRaT in a live concert. The band either has it, or they dont. If they do, people get into it. If they dont, they get booed off the stage in extreme situations. |
@audiom3 Understand the term 'sarcasm' much? Yes, there is no such thing as PRaT in a live concert because you are listening to live instruments. PRaT refers only to the reproduction of music with a focus on how accurately the leading and trailing edges of notes or sound waves are reproduced, which may not match the original live performance. |
Hmm, it is indeed a very simple track. But, the PR&Tty kid is able to cry his way into the souls of analytical old men.
Mk.Gee - Are you looking up https://youtu.be/DxdKr5PmlPw?si=SRj4flzUpOR4WXPZ
PR&T ...whatever....
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OP Perhaps it comes down to the ability of the amplifier to respond rapidly and fully to the current demands of the signal. This is most prominent when dealing with transients. Indeed, for so called PRaT speakers must be essential to bring out the pace rhythm and timing… the electronics certainly can’t do it on its own… there needs to be a synergy. N
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You say when you "first heard... [you] assumed..." Does this mean you have subsequently clarified it for yourself through direct experience or. . . ?
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I haven’t been into audio long enough to associate this term with any brand. When I researched my Hegel H390, I encountered mentions of its tendency to "move the music along" and once in my system, this was indeed apparent. It was not only noticeably different from other integrateds I’d owned but also from the much-more-costly systems owned by two friends -- both long-time audiophiles. Perhaps PRaT is just a marketing term but so far I haven’t encountered another that appears to be a more appropriate description of this particular phenomenon. OK -- "Boogie Factor" -- maybe. But that’s not very specific, Because I’ve discovered rhythmic engagement is crucial to my listening enjoyment, the fact that this "propulsive" capacity was repeatedly mentioned in connection with the Hegel definitely piqued my curiosity. However, I recognize that each of us has different priorities when it comes to sonic attributes so it's understandable that this capacity might not matter so much to you or others, here. |
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@bolong that is an excellent descriptor for what audio systems that lack PRAT do when played. kn |
If one knows how to dance, one knows pace, rhythm and timing. In dance, it’s where you put your foot down on the beat. Not so much in ballet but very much present in African-Jazz or pure jazz dance. It’s not a complex concept. Been around for ages. The Brits just express it that way. Look at any Bob Fosse number and that will display for you the sense of prat. Or better yet, go play a dance song, and then DANCE! Congratulations! If you put your foot down on the beat, you're DOING prat. Baroque music (some of it) depends on prat to keep the rhythms crisp, and, in some cases, turn on a dime, because the composition of some Baroque music depends on exact timing. |
@gbmcleod As I mentioned, I’m a drummer so I not only know the beat, I’m the one who keeps it so the dancers know where it is and I still don’t get how PRaT translates (or doesn’t) to an audio system. Sorry but your analogy doesn’t translate to me at all, but neither has anyone else’s for that matter so it remains a mystery to me. |
@soix After four pages of discussion, I am pretty sure Agoners can’t help you with this, unless they are a Buddhist monk or a licensed psychologist. Hopefully you will continue keeping the beat as you play and listen to music - Happy New Year. kn |
@knownothing I agree. Nothing anyone has said here has helped or made any sense to me whatsoever — I just don’t get it, but that’s ok. At this point I’m thinking it’d take a direct A/B comparison between good and bad PRaT systems to get it through my head cause words ain’t cutting it and this seems more like a “feel” thing that needs to be heard to be understood. Anyway, in the meantime I guess I’ll just be like those who say they can’t hear a difference between streamers and go forward in happy ignorance. 😜 |
Sorry nothing we have said helps. But as I am sure I have mentioned, it is not easy to hear... took me a long long time. And it has nothing to do with drums or timing at a macro level. It is across the sound field. It is something that I read about and just plain did not perceive for several decades. Then one day I put together different experiences across time and I got it. After that, like some of the more nuanced variables... it is obvious and becomes un-hearable. You are curious... one day... it will probably hit you.., and you’ll go, "OH! that’s it!" Keep at it. |
Well I’m no monk but I recently put together a Harbeth and Naim system. I can say this combination did something in the ’feel’ sense that I’ve always read about. There was a certain veil that was lifted without the system being aggressive in any way. Typically when I’d put together a "musical" system by the standard agreement of many audiophiles (or higher percentage) I’d miss some of that bite or grunge when the music called for it. Also when I would look for a larger presentation than a system could offer (with such a small speaker) I would miss that scale. So for me I got the "sense’ or "feel" that everything was good even though all recordings became listenable. Even though the scale was a bit smaller. So it was less compromise and more like, Yes, this system can do it really well! As far as Pace, rhythm and timing, maybe it has to do with a smaller, tighter speaker that relies a bit more cabinet for the presentation? Anyway, it led to some louder listening and lots of enjoyment. I did use a sub at times because they don’t dig deep. Even that was okay most of the time (not really missed much). So to me the prat was to make the experience all around musical without lacking any of the things that a lesser experience can frustrate us with (and there are many). Hopefully this helps, and yes the toe tap was there. I’ve since parted with this system because I didn’t like where the monitors were positioned relative to traffic pattern in the room. I don’t like risking damage of nice gear being knocked over. I also just like to try new gear if I have the opportunity to do so with minimal loss. Glad I tried this. |
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