Why Do Cables Matter?

You are missing the point that the average stereo system extracts just a fraction of the information from the recording.  More resolving systems extract more information.  I hear footfalls, whispers, movements in recordings.  It was very distracting at first but I have learned to tune that out.  Still, I’m not crazy about listening to my system in the dark.  It often feels like people are moving around in the room.

@donavabdear. At the risk of flogging a dead horse, the point is that one is aiming to retrieve the information which is already there and not to add information which is not present in the recording.

Thanks for re-presenting your propositions. There is no connection of any kind between statement numbers one and two. They are just two different statements and so no conclusion can be drawn from them.

Your concluding "try arguing" statement is a prime example of a straw man distraction fallacy.

@yoyoyaya earnest question for you.

You said,

the point is that one is aiming to retrieve the information which is already there and not to add information which is not present in the recording.

Original recordings vary a lot (as you know). When an original recording was something made for car radios or some other mass listening application, they sometimes exhibit qualities which, on a good stereo, sound bad. When audiophiles seeks ways of dealing with that -- say with a tube DAC or EQ or certain cables, etc. -- are they trying to remove information in the original recording in order to make it sound better?

I really don’t know the answer to this, so I would appreciate anyone with experience explaining what is happening to the "information" in the original recording when we try to make it sound better.

Also, consider this analogy: when we take raw steak and cook it and add garlic salt, are we obscuring or reducing the original flavor information in the meat?

You see the analogy I’m trying to make, but perhaps it is not a good analogy? Feel free to attack it!

It’s all about waves. Sound waves are locked into electromagnetic waves in recording studios. At home, that same electromagnetic waves are converted back into sound waves by our electronics and speakers. The objective of our home system is to replicate that recorded electromagnetic waves. But since we’re not in a perfect world, there is no way that electromagnetic waves can exactly be reproduced. We’re dealing with degree of degradation to the original waves by the home equipment. The better the equipment, the closer we get to the original waves. So, everything in the chain matters. Electromagnetic waves are created by electrons. Cable manufacturers strive to get the electrons vibrating to perfection in order to re-create that recorded electromagnetic waves. But there is no such thing as a perfectly pure material or a perfectly shielded cable so the exact reproduction is not going to happen. We have cable makers going for OCC, high purity materials, cryro and sophisticated construction in their attempt to get as close as possible to reproducing the original signals. The closer they get the more expensive the cables becomes. At the end of the day, it’s all about you get what you pay for.

@hilde45, being involved in the hi fi industry business as well as the recording,

The term High Fidelity from my perspective means being faithful to the original recording i.e. being able to reproduce it as accurately as possible. I have to say that in the thousands of recordings in my collection there are actually very few that sound "bad". By bad I mean nasty peaky treble or obvious distortion. However, if that is what on the recording, so be it. I also have to say that in my experience of listening to quite a few audio systems, very high quality systems make less good recordings more listenable than vice versa because they present more of the music and make it easier to listen through poor recording quality.

The question of people using equalisation etc as presented in your post is complex as there could be subtractive or additive elements involved. For example if an amplifier with high levels of harmonic distortion was used, it will add harmonics to the final signal that are not present (or certainly not to the same degree) in the recording. On the other hand if someone uses a tone control to dial down a peak in the frequency range they are removing part of the signal. Or they could be using a loudness control to boost low frequencies. In that case they are not adding information, but they are making part of the signal more prominent than it is on the actual recording.

Finally, an important factor that bears mentioning is that, at the risk of stating the obvious, people's perceptions differ. Some people aren't that sensitive to frequency response errors for example and other's aren't that sensitive to timing errors. And sometimes, people's sonic values are just plain different, which is why there is such diversity in hi fi equipment.

@yoyoyaya

Thank you for your informed reply.

Since there are some situations where adding information (harmonics) is pleasing or taking away information is pleasing (equalization), then there is nothing sacrosanct about "reproducing the original information," at least at the end of the process. Because the goal is not literal reproduction but aesthetic reproduction. This is where the analogy with cooking raw ingredients holds up.

On the other hand, I can imagine the response - "Yes, ok — we need to flavor to taste. Still, at the start of the process, we want to start with the real thing -- 100%, Grade A meat. After that, you can do as you wish, but don’t compromise it before you get a chance to start cooking."

These two responses are consistent with one another. But the notion that the "original signal" should not be adjusted (adding or subtracting information) mistakes literal reproduction for aesthetic reproduction. As you say, tastes vary, and (of course), so do ears and rooms. A lot!

At the end of the day, I don't seek "faithful" or "accurate" but good sounding. It's also the case that I probably don't own the same speakers the recording was mixed on, nor the same acoustic room. Given that I cannot hope for "faithful" I will settle for "good sounding," however I can get there.

@hilde45 

There are exceptions to the "can't add information" rule such as speakers. There are very few studios that use speakers over $50k there are good reasons for that but as far as audiophiles that commonly use speakers over 50k they may be hearing things that the original recording and mixing engineers never heard. I've mentioned before I was in the studio with Al Schmitt (the greatest recording engineer ever) and his personal speakers at Capitol Studio A sounded pretty bad. I of course never mentioned that but the reason why he had more gold records over the years than anyone was because he knew the system in which the recordings worked, he didn't use much EQ he used mic placement to change the sound so there was no signal limitation. It didn't matter that he didn't have very good hearing anymore before he died. That's to say the bottleneck in his system was very large he didn't fuss with EQ, compression and limiting he left the signal as open as possible. Speakers can reproduce a signal that is larger than the bottle neck that the recording engineer ever heard but those frequencies and dynamics are not part of the mix they are  flavors that the engineer hopes don't detract from the music. As far as interconnects and speaker cables they are bottlenecks if the current audiophile ideas are correct and since they are supposedly limiting the original signal path they limit everything. That's why I say using cable more expensive than the original recording is silly. Hope that made sense. 

Why do cables matter?

Because they sound different.

Recording sound is a different process than playing back the sound. Microphones are not same as speakers. What you are playing back from is a finished product. You're starting all over again when playing back so getting the best out of it is a new game. 

The using the same cabling used in recording during playback argument is no more valid than the one about all that cabling that comes before your outlet, or the ones in your amp. They're all red herrings. 

An old and talented sound engineer with lousy hearing, crappy speakers and whatever limitations he's under knows what to do to get the best sound just like some deaf composer can write a symphony and know how great it will sound. 

All the best,
Nonoise

+1 Nonoise.

@donavabdear. I agree with a lot of what you say about Al Schmitt’s recordings - which are superb. However, I disagree with your "bottleneck" comment. You miss the point that the engineer doesn’t just listen to what’s being recorded via monitors. They listen to the actual sound of the instruments themselves. In addition, good engineers know exactly what every piece of equipment in the recording chain does in terms of the sound which is finally committed to the recording medium. Furthermore, in multitrack recording, the engineer has the opportunity to listen to each track solo and, actually, has access to a lot more information than anyone who only hears the final two track mix.

To conclude, as nonoise says arguments about any piece of equipment in the recording chain setting a limit on what can be used for reproduction are just red herrings.

That’s the end of my contribution on this topic.

@nonoise : +2

@donavabdear @nonoise @yoyoyaya 

Great points which I failed to understand about the equipment and about a good engineer creating things which project beyond what their equipment literally reports to them. Thanks.

@yoyoyaya

It makes me laugh as audiophiles prattle on about recording unless they were recording engineers themselves.

Engineers may attempt to get what’s on the other side of the glass into the recording. And almost always certainly must fail. And as often as not the recording is a creation in its own right assembled from tracks recorded on different days, often in different rooms, possibly on different continents.

No engineer anywhere ever heard in the booth what was actually playing in the studio. Not even when nothing is playing. The studio has an ambience which is masked by booth equipment self-noise and air-con. Acoustically they can be worlds apart due to volume, shape, contents and surface treatment.

One of Al Schmidt’s masterpieces is Toto IV. The iconic track ’Africa’ began as a four bar drum segment cut from hours of recordings, spliced end to end and then looped. Everything else is layered on top over many months. I still get goosebumps today when I recall when Jeff brought a cassette of the finished song to a date and played it for the cats. We were speechless. Drum perfection!

@ieales. I am a recording engineer.

@kinarow1 

If you can't hear a difference between cables, why worry about this?

"It doesn't make logical sense to me."

Unless you know everything, it really doesn't matter. And none of us knows everything. 

In some ways audio is like witnessing a UFO. Sometimes we can explain a phenomenon, but sometimes not. I stopped trying to find reason and logic after I listened to audio quality fuses. Yes, they made a difference. I don't have the faintest clue how or why they would. I've never heard an explanation that is even remotely adequate. 

Do what works for you, don't do what doesn't. Ignore the little people who delude themselves into thinking it's their place to ridicule you. 

I won’t even bother reading this ridiculous thread.  I’ll only say just put crap tires on a Ferrari or Porsche and see what that gets you. Chain only as strong as the cheapest link.  Underspend on cables at your own peril.  They’re a necessary evil, so just deal with it.

@jasonbourne71  +1.  All these claims by Lee were unsubstantiated by any lab measurements! He said " just listen". The "My golden ears told me it is so" crowd fell for this hype and bought miles of Monster Cable, making Noel Lee a multi-millionaire! Soon other entrepreneurs took notice and started their own wire businesses. They discovered that all you need was a nicely made product with a catchy name and a liberal amount of print spin (this was pre- Internet). Lab measurements not needed! 

@mrskeptic  +1.They don't and it isn't objectively provable that they do. The people that say "I know what I hear" or similar, are no different than people who believe a random set of stars in the sky has something to do with what happens in their lives.

People need to justify their "chase" and expenditures thereof.  Of course your system will sound better to you if you spend $2000 on speaker wire... it has to, or you have to admit your foolery.  If your system doesn't sound right, get different speakers instead of chasing the snake-wires.  If your system isn't fully satisfying, the wires are not the issue.  

@audphile1 : +1. These crackheads crack me up. 

@curtdr :

People need to justify their "chase" and expenditures thereof. Of course your system will sound better to you if you spend $2000 on speaker wire... it has to, or you have to admit your foolery. If your system doesn’t sound right, get different speakers instead of chasing the snake-wires.

What are your speakers?

Just a wild guess, less than $2,000 a pair? If so, who in the right mind would spend $2,000 on speaker wire for speakers costing a few hundred bucks? 
 

‘You crackheads crack me up

@jasonbourne71 Wrote:

Blame it on Noel Lee! In the Days of Yore audio hobbyists used zip cord - and nobody cared or complained! Then in 1976 Mr. Lee started selling 10 gauge fine multi-strand cable in a clear jacket. He called it Monster Cable and it was an overnight success! Lee claimed his cable was better because the high frequencies traveled faster on the outside and the bass frequencies had more oomph due to the thickness of the cable. Cleaner, clearer highs and greater bass mojo compared to zip cord! All these claims by Lee were unsubstantiated by any lab measurements! He said " just listen". The "My golden ears told me it is so" crowd fell for this hype and bought miles of Monster Cable, making Noel Lee a multi-millionaire! Soon other entrepreneurs took notice and started their own wire businesses. They discovered that all you need was a nicely made product with a catchy name and a liberal amount of print spin (this was pre- Internet). Lab measurements not needed!

I agree!+2

Mike

@thyname I have several speakers, and different types of speakers, of various prices (though by the way I have not found that price determines musical satisfaction level nor even necessarily correlates with it).  Some I've had for a long and satisfying time, and some are newer.  

But it ain’t my speakers that are at issue here.

if you don't like them return them, nothing complicated here...try something else or not...

soix 6,892 posts 06-06-2023 at 05:17pm

I won’t even bother reading this ridiculous thread. I’ll only say just put crap tires on a Ferrari or Porsche and see what that gets you. Chain only as strong as the cheapest link. Underspend on cables at your own peril. They’re a necessary evil, so just deal with it.

————-

@soix …. you nailed it , sir! “Point, Set, and Match!” in tennis jargon.

There exists an undeniable embedded schism in this hobby that is shared in every audio forum The cold, hard fact is that it’s a binary choice belief based on personal experience in these all too-often and oft-repeated disputed cable values challenges.

Simply put, there is a minority cohort of cable naysayers that are polar opposites and diametrically opposed to the cable advocates; with an absolute zero success of either side ever convincing the other camp of changing their position.

As @soix clearly and eloquently summarized in his post …. Do watcha want and carry on…. Fine ,…. No worries …. But kindly resist an urge of floating futile, boring, and entirely predictable stand-off result in new cable “yay or nay cable value” posts .

the following quote fits:

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

Albert Esinstein

Just a wild guess, less than $2,000 a pair? If so, who in the right mind would spend $2,000 on speaker wire for speakers costing a few hundred bucks? 

I once had $3k cables on speakers that cost me ≈$400 forty years ago.

Kimber BiFocal and bi-wired, XO recapped Spica TC-50. Scarily musical.

I laugh when I hear $50k speakers. Mostly because they are badly designed wrt to time coherence.

@audphile1 

"... You simply don’t want to hear the difference"

+1 

It's been so entertaining watching the ladies get into a cat fight over the OP's rhetorical question that I may cancel NetFlix.

How about I hear a change in sound when I change banana plugs or replace a fuse.

And I have an Atoll In200, Aquarius DAC, and 'heavely' modified Infinity Beta 50 speakers 😁

That’s hilarious! Are they trying to kick over a trash container with a weighted bottom?

I’ve got a pair of Klipschorns that are sitting mostly unused in my living room. They are temporarily hooked up to a receiver with two very different cables. One is thick and fairly short. The other is much longer and extremely thin gage. It’s just whatever was sitting around. I kind of expected to hear a little image shifting due to the cable difference but it doesn’t do that. Center panned vocals are dead center no matter how loud I turn it up. That may come down to the efficiency of the speakers and the relatively low amount of current that has to be pushed through that crazy thin and long speaker wire. 

The speakers sound to me like they've always sounded in this room, regardless of amp or cable I've tried. Someone highly experienced with hearing cable and amp differences may notice the changes but I'm too distracted by the overall speaker/room interaction effect to hear more subtle effects as important.

On the WBF forum, Master-Built cables were discussed.  These cables were designed as a side job by the government scientists who work on superconductors.  Debate went on back on forth on what the cable manufacturers claimed.  Iirc In this debate included scientists and engineers.  After the debate went on for awhile, a one of the scientist answered in a very technical way beyond my understanding.  From this I concluded that specialists in the field are much more knowledgeable than others including academics, scientists, engineers, etc.  

I don’t need to understand why before I buy, I’m just interested in price/performance or more specifically sonic performance.

Nice people post links. WBF* search is hopeless.

* Wife's Best Friend?

What does WBF stand for? (abbreviations.com)

@ieales What's Best Forums, common man.😎 You should check the place out, tons of information from engineers, manufacturers and consumers. 

​​​​​​​Now if the Wife's Best Friend is hot I may check her site out too. 

 https://www.whatsbestforum.com/forums/masterbuilt-audio.399/

MasterBuilt are probably fine cables. Like all cables, they interact with the source and load. There is no Magic Bullet.

Their spiel and its ilk are repeated ad nauseum on most every audiophool product page. 😵

Okay time to say goodbye, not sure about magic bullets, my system sounds fantastic and if a component is not contributing to my musical enjoyment, off it goes. Shame some people just come to these threads to throw stones.

@rodman99999 ...Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose, by trying (experimenting with) such...

There. Eliminate the mystery, and 1000 questions. Just try it. Decide for yourself.

Shame some people just come to these threads to throw stones.

Stating provable facts isn't throwing stones.

"my system sounds fantastic" and could be made not so with a single cable mismatch.

Sometimes you have to wake a sleepwalker so they don't fall down the stairs.

Just try it. Decide for yourself.

This unfortunately has nothing to do with trying. These folks never try anything, they just steer the pot in audio forums. That’s all they do, their reason for being. Feeling appropriate. See the post above mine. You will get the gist of it

It's the same old tired argument told in as many ways as they can collectively think of: that it's all in your mind. Talk about weak tea. They have absolutely zero rebuttals to mentioning this other than to go on and keep saying it, like some kind of mantra. 

Kinda like clicking your heels together and saying "there's no place like home, there's no place like home..."

And then all the bad guys go away.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise : +1. Spot on, and, very funny!

Cables make a difference. I’ve said that for over 50 years.

What is not guaranteed is that any particular cable in any particular system will effect a change or be an improvement to all. Regardless of all the marketing claims.

Advising someone to try what you own has an even chance of being bad advice. AND I NEVER do it.

We do not expect a "Guarantee".  We are will aware that the advised cable may not bring subjectively desirable results in our own systems.  But reporting the experience in actual use what they had before and after is very helpful, otherwise beyond basic cable build knowledge we only have marketing hype to evaluate products.

...we only have marketing hype to evaluate products

Truer words were never spoken.

The only thing I ever bought in a HiFi shop that I didn’t evaluate in my system were Spica TC-50... about forty years ago.

I recall over two decades ago, I did not believe that cables made a significant difference.  I reluctantly tried an expensive ($400), Transparent RCA interconnect cable to my Gamut power amplifier and MSB Platinum CD player.

Within the first 5 seconds of the music playing , I started laughing out loud as the difference was enormous.

IMO, cables make a huge difference - although some yield a subtle difference.  Finding the right combo for your ears and ,set up is the key.

It is understandable that the topic of speaker cables can be confusing, given the wide range of opinions and perspectives on the matter. While it's true that the internal wiring within amplifiers and speakers typically uses plain copper wires of lower gauges, the discussion around specialized speaker cables focuses on optimizing the signal transfer between the amplifier and the speakers. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Signal Integrity: Speaker cables are designed to minimize resistance, inductance (L), and capacitance (C) along the signal path. Lower resistance ensures efficient power transmission, minimizing power loss and allowing for accurate signal reproduction. Reduced inductance and capacitance help maintain signal integrity by minimizing distortion and phase shifts.

2. Shielding and Interference: Specialized speaker cables often incorporate shielding to protect the audio signal from external electromagnetic interference. This shielding can help maintain the purity of the signal and prevent any potential degradation caused by nearby electronic devices or power cables.

3. Long Cable Runs: In setups with long cable runs or challenging environments, such as high electromagnetic interference areas, the quality and design of the speaker cables become even more important. Higher-quality cables can mitigate signal degradation over longer distances, ensuring that the full potential of the audio signal is delivered to the speakers.

4. System Synergy: While it is true that a system is only as strong as its weakest link, it is also important to consider the overall synergy of the components. High-quality speaker cables can complement the capabilities of the amplifier and speakers, allowing for a more cohesive and optimized audio reproduction. Matching the quality of the speaker wires with the existing internal wires can help maintain the overall system's performance.

Ultimately, the choice of speaker cables comes down to personal preference, budget, and the specific requirements of the audio system. It's important to strike a balance between investing in quality cables and ensuring that the overall system is optimized for the best possible audio experience.

key to remember is that good quality hifi cables need NOT to be very expensive, and as a rule, one should stay away from those in nosebleed territory, even for very good systems

Why?  If so, then perhaps everyone should stay away from all audio gear in nosebleed territory.  You gotta pay to play.  We work to refine and improve our audio systems over time- sometimes we hit a dead end and have to start over or let go of a favorite component because it is just not working well in our system.  Cables are as much as a component as anything else in our audio system.  

I don’t like the idea of spending my hard earned money on a cable anymore than anyone else.  It’s just as bad as having to pay for an expensive car repair.  I go for sound over looks but I can appreciate how some cable manufacturers make their cables look like jewelry.  Some can at least feel like they got something more for their money.  Here’s the reality:  $100k worth of speakers, amps, preamps and source are going to require something around $25k in power cords and cables.  If you are aspiring to get to that level of a system, better budget for cables up front.  Don’t agree?  Well, those with that level of system or higher are nodding their heads.

Perhaps a better piece of advice is to stay within your means when it comes to this hobby.  We all have our passions and it’s fun to play in the high end HiFi arena.  When you find a bargain on a high end amp or a pair of speakers just remember:  they simply will never perform at their best if you scrimp on cables.  

I was at the Ford Proving Grounds in the early 1990’s.  The Mustang group was in the adjacent bays.  I noticed at the beginning of the week they had a large stack of tires sitting there.  I could hear tires squealing all day as they drove the cars on the tire test track.  They would wear out a set of tires on each car in a day.  I was surprised to see that large stack of tires was gone by the end of the week.  One of the engineers remarked to me that for all the work the Mustang group does evaluating tires and finding the best tire for ride and handling, most people will just replace their worn tires with the cheapest set they can find.

why should someone not evaluate nose bleed cables for an ultra nosebleed system ??

tokushi

Specialized speaker cables often incorporate shielding to protect the audio signal from external electromagnetic interference.

I've been at this a long time and have never seen a shielded speaker cable. If they're so common, @tokushi why don't you provide a link to a few?

cleeds

5,094 posts

06-14-2023 at 10:57am 

tokushi

Specialized speaker cables often incorporate shielding to protect the audio signal from external electromagnetic interference.

I've been at this a long time and have never seen a shielded speaker cable. If they're so common, @tokushi why don't you provide a link to a few?

I am afraid his thesis / write up was AI generated. Otherwise known as a "bot". You are wasting your time.