Amp and Pre-Amp suggestions needed
@mofojo I am doing both analog and digital. @jjss49 Can you tell me what is meant by line stage? I am not opposed to using the Schiit Loki as I have heard good things about it. @unsound Dale recommended a preamp like a Conrad Johnson PV-12 and the amp was an Antique Sound Lab Hurricane mono blocks. As to the rest of your post, I really have no idea what impedance load and phase angle are. Their sensitivity is rated at 89db. Dale says the more power the better and that he has clients using 300 and 400 watts per channel. My rooms are small like 13' x 11'. Preferred musical genres are Jazz, Pop, and Fusion. A good friend of mine also has the TLS-1's and is using Vincent separates with great results. Any thoughts on how their gear stacks up to other similarly priced offerings? Thanks all, Joe |
Two points: I don't like tone controls. When I had lower quality receiver and speakers tone controls helped a lot. With better amp and speaker I seldom used them, but now with good gear (I think) I don't need it at all. Lower quality systems are prone to resonances or attenuated/uneven frequencies. Perhaps thats why the cheapest boomboxes have equalizers and quality systems don't even have tone controls. In addition, how to control amount of double bass without changing the sound of the piano in lower registers? If it was recorded with more or less bass or treble then it was likely intended that way. At my age I have increasing problem of climbing the stage to adjust tone controls to my liking at the concerts :) Second point is what kind of sound you expect. There are two camps - pleasing sound or accurate sound (called by pleasing sound people "sterile" and "analytic"). I'm in accurate camp with Benchmark AHB2, but my brother's system is warm and wonderful. It does not have resolution (details are masked) of my system, but it sounds very nice. There is no right or wrong here, but you must state your preference. In accurate camp Benchmark AHB2 beats pretty much everything within $3k. |
If you like the sound with the Vincent separates why not keep it simple and just go with that since it’s a known factor and Vincent makes good and reasonably-priced gear? Past that, it’s really hard to make recommendations when most of us have never heard (or even know about) your speakers or what kind sound characteristics you like or that are most important to you. If you could at least share the latter it’d be super helpful in making more informed and meaningful recommendations. |
I'm in agreement with kijanki4 with respect to tone controls. The better your gear, the less you need them. For a preamp, I would recommend Don Sach's linestage: http://dsachsconsulting.com/custom%20line%20stage.html Don builds these by hand and will tweak it to match your amps. The downside is that this means you'll have a 6 - 8 week wait. I have one and I'd have to spend some serious money to best it. For an amp, I would suggest looking at a pro amp (e.g., Yamaha, Crown, Crest, Soundcraftsmen, etc.). My previous speakers (Martin Logan Spires) loved power so I ran them with a pair of Soundcraftsmen PM860 monoblocks from the 70's. They pushed 900W at 4Ω. Total harmonic distortion was under 0.05%. They were completely silent when no music was playing. If you require big power, pro amps are your best bang for the buck option. |
Looks like you can get all that except tone controls with Van Alstine -- their tube preamp runs $2100 and you can get their SS SET 400 (225wpc @8ohms) or their hybrid power amp Fet Valve 400R (200wpc @8ohms) for $2900 (that would put you right at your limit). I only have their phono preamp, but the aforementioned pre is highly rated (at least by one reviewer) and is at the top of my own upgrade list. |
You want to go all vintage solid state amp and pre amp with an ohm sytle speaker because they require all the gain and current you can muster to feed them i have an old set of upgraded ohm walsh 4's that need all the gain and current you can throw at them because they are an 18 ohm load with 82 db at a watt sensitivity and 650 watt power handling when you play the dynamic solid state stuff on them it will blow yourr mind the tube stuff will not feed them well at all. |
Thank you all for your input and suggestions. I've taken it all in and in speaking with Dale, I think I'm going to go for the Parasound A21+ power amp. I will also probably go for the Parasound pre. It has tone controls and balanced inputs which I can use coming out of my Mytek Liberty DAC. I'm also in agreement with @stereo5 and @jjss49 about tone controls. I'm 50 years old and have been a drummer all my life. I know I have some degree of hearing loss in the upper frequency range. Using the tone control, like a little salt and pepper, I think would be a good thing. I am still open to suggestions on a good pre amp. Tube or SS. Let me know. Thanks again everyone! Joe |
Here, from here, in 2013 is a lover of your speakers. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/walsh-style-tls-1-by-hhr-exotics-ohm-f-style He uses tube preamp: Conrad-Johnson PV-12 https://conradjohnson.com/owners-manuals/PV12MAN.pdf amps: Carver Cherry 180 Tube Mono Blocks http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0512/bob_carver_cherry_180_tube_monoblock_ampli... |
I hope you are not going to fall for the watts per channel trap as the only way to measure an amps “power” and ability to drive a speaker or “load”. I could steer you to some high power quality amps that only put our 25 watts per channel that matched with those speakers will make your ears bleed with a sweet sound. Then you could by a class D amp that will put out 900 watts per that will sound like an old am car radio. You need to look at an amps “power” like we do a car engine. I could give you a car that will go 0 to 100 in 4 seconds( horsepower) but could not pull a plow. Then I could give you a tractors that will pull a tree stump out of the ground (torque) but will do 0 to 60 in a day. Finding the right amp to make your speakers sing will involve the entire equation of quality clean watts per channel (horsepower), and power supply, voltage rails, heat control, power efficiency (torque). There are plenty to choose from so start auditioning with your speakers and enjoy the ride. But most of all don’t fall into the trap that has been set. |
We used to use McIntosh 75 watt tube amps to push double 15 low range cabinets. And 10 cell horns. These were events wit thousands of people outdoors. Watts are not the only tool in the toolbox to figure out what might work. Its not just horsepower that makes the car faster.. Currently using a Parasound pre and Arcam amps. No complaints. |
Having just two weeks ago upgraded my Naim NAP DR 300 amp to Parasound JC1+ monoblocs for my Wilson Sasha2s I have to comment that technically the Naim had "enough" power and drove high current into low ohms, but I was not getting anywhere near the performance the Sasha 2s are capable of. I can highly recommend the Parasound JC__+ stuff, and regardless of brand I recommend giving your new speakers a ton of current. This is age old advice about lots of high current, but I just experienced it in front of my own ears. Also the sound quality at low levels was also greatly improved. Good luck. |
@ audionoobie The HHR TLS-1 mfr suggests 400 watts rms which suggests you need considerable power to run these speakers. At $5k, getting an integrated amp rather than separates is likely better price/performance alternative unless you plan to swap out the pre /or amp in the future. Tone controls are usually frowned upon audiophiles who believe preserving the audio signal through the audio chain is the upmost importance. Adding tone controls adds another layer into the audio chain which would likely degrade the sound which is audible in highly resolving audio systems. On the other hand for some it's worth the sonic tradeoff (if any depending on the to resolution of the system and the quality of the execution of the tone controls) adjust the treble/bass to suit your tastes - different strokes.... |
Quick update: A local audio retailer that I have a relationship with has agreed to let me borrow a Parasound A21+ power amp and the $1600 pre, I don't recall what the name of it is off hand. He also mentioned another popular option was to have the Parasound power amp paired with a Rogue tube pre. If I like I will purchase both from him. Thank you all for the great suggestions and discussion. Much appreciated. -Joe |
The Don Sachs preamp lists at $2500. It is just a dressed up VTA SP-14, which admittedly comes in a very plain package at $1500 assembled, or $1100 kit. It will make you smile. As for a SS amp, I'd look for a classic Sumo Andromeda. A truly great amp, but a little hard to find. Well worth the trouble and can be typically had for $1000 or a bit less. There's a used one on EBay that needs repair that can be had for cheap. If you've got a good repair tech in your area, that's what I'd do. But hey. I love great audio for cheap. This forum probably isn't the right place for me. |
OK audionoobie, you've got a 6Ω speaker that's 88db efficient, can be driven with 100w-400w of power, & the Rogue is not cutting it with these speakers. The Cronus is already a pretty fair piece of gear, so don't make the mistake of a laterial move. $5G for a separate pre-amp and amp in the world of new gear maynot get ya leaps & bounds better than the Rogue if you're not careful. Might I suggest an Ampex 402 pre-amp (see youtube attachment), pair it up with a Krell KSA 300s. Ampex use to build tube powered recording studios, microphone pre-amps, mixing boads, tape machines, the works. They also made Hi-Fi pre-amps, with outstanding phono-stages. I use to own one, put my Conrad Johnson PV11 to shame and gave my snob Audion 2box Premier an inordinate run for the money. An Ampex 402 can be found for just south of a $grand. Compliment the lush tubes of the Ampex with the lightning fast Krell. The 300 KSAs is pure Class A power. It's able to grab those 88 db Ohms by the scruf of the neck, & still have enough head room to sustain any crescendo thrown at it. A Krell KSA300s can be had for $3500 bucks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rq8WrqudzI |
+ Vote for a Schiit Loki . I have one that I’ve used intermittently and I like it . You just need an additional pair of interconnects, which will probably cost more than the Loki. I am considering a Van Alstine amp myself to pair with my Rogue RP-1. As far as preamps , my friend has a recapped CJ with NOS Telefunkens paired with a Benchmark amp . He uses adapters to run the CJ single ended into Benchmark . He is pleased with the sound and plays a lot of higher quality vinyl. I would get a Don Sachs pre , a Schiit Loki, and the higher power Van Alstine amp, if I were you . I’d also call them and inquire about the tube buffered amp too . If you go with a pre that uses small driver tubes vs octal , I’d HIGHLY RECOMMEND NOS Telefunkens. If you want big tubes , I’d go Quicksilver over ASL. And I’d really like to hear what you choose to do, and how it sounds . Best wishes and happy hunting , Mike B. |
Hey gang, I wanted to provide an update on this thread. When I first got the speakers home it was readily apparent that the Rogue CM III was not up to the task. The only other amp in my possession was a 75wpc Belles Aria Integrated. Although it sounded really good, it was considerably less wattage than what Dale recommends to drive his speakers. It worked ok except I had to turn the volume knob up a little more to get to desired listening levels. Step forward to last Saturday. A local retailer let me borrow a brand new Parasound A21+ and Halo P6. And although I didn’t commit to purchasing the units, I still felt some obligation to buy. Well, the combo sounded completely lackluster. There was no life in the sound, no air, no attack. Simply put, the combo left me flat and unengaged. I spoke to Dale some more, and his philosophy is that the preamp is the heart, soul, and personality of your system. That got me thinking....The Belles besides being an excellent integrated also has Preamp out and Amp in jacks. It can be used as a pre alone, a power amp alone, or an integrated together. I took the preamp out from the Belles and connected it to the unbalanced inputs of the A21+. BAM!!! There was the magic!!! More attack, more air, more bass, way better soundstage. I was completely engaged. So, my opinion is the Parasound A21+ is a good bit of kit. But the P6 may not be up to the task in some systems, certainly not mine. Perhaps it’s a case of a piece of gear that tries to do too much? In addition to being a pre-amp it also has tone controls, bass management, home theatre features, a headphone amp, a phono pre, and a DAC. I will eventually get the preamp that Dale recommends, a Conrad Johnson PV11 or 12. In the meantime I will continue to use the Belles as a pre. Side note: I’m not even missing tone controls, the sound is that good! Thank you everyone for you valuable input and suggestions on this topic. I certainly learned a lot. Cheers, Joe |
