Are there speakers that disappear regardless of the recording?

Garbage in.
Garbage out.

Common on One Drivers from about 2-3 .$$$

As others have said, with some recordings your speakers will never disappear, ever.  

Now I'm speaking of listening from one position, not roaming the room. That said, the better the use and implementation of the acoustical space the more apt one is to realize the 'speaker disappearing act' on more and more recordings. 

Although (like in all cases) you can find some wonderful inexpensive speakers that do quite well at disappearing sonically, I have found that generally, GENERALLY speaking, more expensive world class speakers can do better at going away sonically more often than their more value-conscious and lower costing brethren. And that's fine. I have cheaper speakers I love quite a bit as well.

Very good electronics also help with openness.

If you want disappearance in locations other than the sweet spot, then you’ll have to look to Omni…. Ohm Walsh… Omni or as you mention MBL… Maggie’s aren’t in this category. I have never been a Ohm fan… but my partner had a pair when we met, she liked the indirectness of them.

Sorry to say but the question you post is ridiculous. They will not be a speaker that disappears for every recording.  The question is like asking is there a speaker that will have bass for every recording.   There are some speakers that are excellent are disappearing but speaker placement is especially important at achieving this.  I’ve also seen and heard many speakers that are not particularly known as disappearing speakers but when setup correctly, they did disappear very well.  I feel room treatment and speaker positioning and placement goes a super long way in getting any speaker to disappear. 

 

 

@ ishkabibil

Ever played a Beatles song where George Martin pans hard right or left?

A. Imaging i.e. locating instruments in space ain’t the same as

B.. speakers disappearing (does not require A)

The question is B and we’ve listed a number of speakers in this thread which one can go and listen to and experience B however people keep saying no A isn’t possible which isn’t the question or the same thing..  And if you don't know what I'm talking about--trying listening to one of the mentioned speakers for yourself and see  if I/we are correct or not.

 

@jasonbourne52

Agree 100% my current fave that turns my ProAcs into ninjas: Doug Macleod “Exactly Like this” (Reference Recordings) hi-rez on Qobuz. 😎

Kef LS50s do exactly that. I have two pairs now in "other" rooms.  My main system uses Canton floor sanders and have their own merits but the LS50s once positioned properly, absolutely do "disappear".  I proved this when I had my kids over testing some other speakers and they had no clue where the sound was coming from until I connected the "other" speakers.

In my small room, I have only been able to experience a complete disappearing act with minis and subs. I tried large and small Magnepans, Infinity Rennaissance 90's, Klipsch Lascala. No dice. But my tiny Infinity Infinitesimal 1.0, or my Proac 1sc's and servo subs, disappear on most all music I play through them.

Peace  brother!

Keep on listening and enjoy.

The world is running backwards right now and everyone is a little stressed.

 

I would think a lot of this depends upon how things are set up and what is in the room.  Actually, there is a dealer here who specializes in Master Set.  They demonstrated this in their showroom.  You couldn't detect either left or right speaker.  

@ishkabibil yeah I hear ya. I was in a weird mood this morning. Apologies for the sarcastic comments. It really is recording dependent. 

Calling all high enders......

Try a Beatles song panned hard left or right...

Sit in the middle and post your report.....

For that fact any Beatles song.

Ever played a Beatles song where George Martin pans hard right or left?

C'mon...now you know why I said no.

It mostly recording dependant.

Your welcome Paul.

@ishkabibil Thank you for your insightful and well thought out response. Very impressed with your effort and I think you should consider writing a book or starting a blog on the topic. 😘 

The answer is no.

Almost any speaker at any price when listening/speaker positions and room acoustics have been optimized.

I own box 2-way speakers Mission Cyrus 781 and they never give me, before acoustic control and rightful  room treatment, a 3-D sound filling the room so much and so well not only the speakers disapear, but the room disapear also...

Then i feel an intimate proximity like in my 7 headphones to the sound unheard before my room tratment and ESPECIALLY my room controls after Helmoltz method...I put my headphones in a closet guess why?

ANY type of speakers can do this job , the most important factor will be the way you will succeed in controlling the room for the chosen  type of speakers...

 

ACOUSTIC CONTROL IS KEY NOT THE SPEAKERS TYPE CHOICES...

My best to you....

 

What I am talking about is that not only do the speakers disappear sitting in the sweet spot (for any music), but if I move a few feet in any direction , I still don’t hear the sound as originating from 2 boxes, just a wall (area?) of sound. Again just talking about disapearing (not localizing instruments)..

And if may be that those who have only heard typical box speakers have not experienced this (perhaps they wouldn’t like it). There is a reason omnis are popular (note though that Jay didn’t like the MBLs at recent show), The mirage bipoles (in phase front and rear drivers) were popular and I was surprised to find this in the LSA. box speakers(I assume because they are wide dispersion).

Not sure if Maggies, and open baffles have this quality or not.

There is a reason speakers other than low dispersion boxes are and will remain popular--changing sound radiating pattern (for better or worse-=your taste) is one thing unlike frequency response that only speakers (well and room treatments) can change.

And room treatments may ruin this--dunno.

 

I am not sure it is possible with a traditional cone and dome type speaker.  As many have pointed out, mono recordings, etc... are going to simply radiate.  They are directional.  

A speaker that reflects off the room and uses the room to create your soundstage would be your best bet.  MBL probably would be your best option as it has a 360 degree radiation pattern but you will likely find that electrostats (martin logan), planar (maggies) and even some of the really excellent ribbon designs (Raidho) will be better at this than any cone and dome speaker I have heard.  

whitestix

Two that come to mind are the above-mentioned Linkwitz LXmini's (where the sweet spot exists pretty much everywhere in the room)"

 

This

Two that come to mind are the above-mentioned Linkwitz LXmini's (where the sweet spot exists pretty much everywhere in the room) and the venerable Spica TC 50's and 60's.  I heard a pair of ML Montis with a Lyndorf receiver and in the narrow  sweet spot, the speakers really did disappear.  I imagine the Cube Audio speakers would do the same thing.

Two that come to mind are the above-mentioned Linkwitz LXmini's (where the sweet spot exists pretty much everywhere in the room) and the venerable Spica TC 50's and 60's.  I heard a pair of ML Montis with a Lyndorf receiver and in the narrow  sweet spot, the speakers really did disappear.  I imagine the Cube Audio speakers would do the same thing.

What I am talking about is that not only do the speakers disappear sitting in the sweet spot (for any music), but if I move a few feet in any direction , I still don’t hear the sound as originating from 2 boxes, just a wall (area?) of sound. Again just talking about disapearing (not localizing instruments)..

And if may be that those who have only heard typical box speakers have not experienced this (perhaps they wouldn’t like it). There is a reason omnis are popular (note though that Jay didn’t like the MBLs at recent show), The mirage bipoles (in phase front and rear drivers) were popular and I was surprised to find this in the LSA. box speakers(I assume because they are wide dispersion).

Not sure if Maggies, and open baffles have this quality or not.

There is a reason speakers other than low dispersion boxes are and will remain popular--changing sound radiating pattern (for better or worse-=your taste) is one thing unlike frequency response that only speakers (well and room treatments) can change.  

And room treatments may ruin this--dunno.

 

 

 

I find that opening one’s eyes… or looking at the system tends to anchor the sound, which might otherwise be difficult to localize. 

@berner99 
Sometimes the speakers disappear completely when I close my eyes. Depends on the recording and it also varies from track to track sometimes. Imaging and soundstage width and depth changes too. Seems to be very recording depended .

The original poster's question is about speakers disappearing i.e. if you close your eyes do the sounds appear to be all coming from the speakers, or do they "disappear".    This is not the same as imaging i.e. can you tell where the violin is and  what it's relation is to other instruments and not the same  as wide soundstage  i.e. how large an area in your room do the instruments appear to be arrayed in.

3 different questions.

Except for very rare bad recording, they are always some acoustical cues in most recording related to the POTENTIAL imaging soundstage timbre and all others acoustic cues ready and waiting  to be translated for and in your room and this acoustic information is more or less well conveyed by your gear to the speakers/room for sure...The inequality of different gear for this conveying task is a common place fact...

The recording circle you alluded to, has for center : the ACOUSTIC room control...

NO one listen to the speakers alone in a small room...We listen to the speakers/room... Why ? Divide the speed of sound by the dimension of your room to know why and calculate the time your brain use to work this information between the distance of your 2 ears trelatively to the 2 speakers and the walls of reflected sound...

The initial recording of the lived musical event is a set of acoustic choices taken by the recording engineer , and they always are IMPERFECT, always a trade-off each one of them...

This recording, yes must be CONVEYED by the turntable/dac and amplifier to the speaker with more or less distortions and success, but at the end must be TRANSLATED from the initial residual or chosen  acoustical choices of the recording , TRANSLATED in the acoustical environment of your uncontrolled or controlled room...

My point is a controlled room give the best possible translation from the first recorded acoustic event to your room acoustic which is, if controlled, ADAPTED synergetically for your specific speakers and specific ears structure and history...

We always listen to the speakers/room relation NEVER to the speaker alone in a small room ...

This is acoustic and psycho-acoustic scientific fact...

Then repeating a common place fact the way you did it : "this must be in the recording first " erase the most important audio factor for an optimal perceived experience which is the  acoustic control of the relation between the speakers and the room...

A common place fact is not enough to understand the key fact here... Acoustic and psycho-acoustic...

😁😊

The presentation of solid imaging within a wide and deep soundstage has to be available in the recording.

Then it is about the room, room treatments, and best placement of the speakers within.

Then it is about the speakers inherent ability to present the available soundscape.

Then it is about the ability of equipment to present this to the speakers.

And now we are back to the recording.

Having too much fun over coffee:-).

 

 

The presentation of solid imaging within a wide and deep soundstage has to be available in the recording.

Then it is about the room, room treatments, and best placement of the speakers within.

Then it is about the speakers inherent ability to present the available soundscape.

Then it is about the ability of equipment to present this to the speakers.

And now we are back to the recording.

Having too much fun over coffee:-).

 

Assuming the speakers themselves aren’t resonating excessively it is always the room and placement.

Also, keep in mind that B&W’s may sound a lot better on the mid axis than the tweeter axis. Experiment with sitting there. Also, toe them out a little.

Having said this, there are some recordings with instruments hard left or hard right, and that may break the illusion, especially if your soundstage is usually behind your speakers.

Sorry if I offended anyone….

Revel M126Be are a nice pair that work very well in older houses and or smaller rooms. Not cheap, but I liked them better than the cheaper priced B&W bookshelves. Just an opinion….

The only ones I suggest are Magneplaners, but you need to have them set-up properly and you need quality hardware.  They only reproduce what you give them, so speak to a good dealer and have them set up IN YOUR ROOM and see what you think.

Don't listen to any of us; make up your own mind ONCE YOU LISTEN.

Cheers!

...back to the op's original query...

Theft.

What is a Recel RSB106?

hondaron

1 posts

03-08-2022 at 06:09pm 

Frankly I have an elchepo Recel RSB106

@hondaron 

 

Whoa, check your ego at the door.

Frankly I have an elchepo Recel RSB106 and a 10 year old Velodyne servo powered sub with a new dangled Antham AVM 70 and a 15 year old Adcom GFA 7400 5x 125 or 150 whatever and a Bluesound streamer part old and part brand new and it will kick the crap  out of your B&W whatever’s.

The recording engineer is the key person in the operation. Given a good recording, the LXmini's that Prof. Linkquitz designed are famous for vanishing. You can build a pair for around $400. Madisound has a kit.

I forgot to say that i dont listen pop music nor rock because i hate most of the time the SOUND from studio manipulations but often also i dont like the commercial music..Not so more musicians rival the Beatles or Bob Dylan in pop culture... 😁😊

I listen mainly to Classical, and jazz and music from Asian countries...India and persia especially...

I disconnected for ever my only sub after controlling my room.... My 7 inches driver do the job now with enough bass to be listen by my body but the wall dont vibrate no.......I listen tuba or piano very well  not explosions anyway....

@larry5729 i have a pair of Rel s510 subs

My basic good but not high end speakers Mission Cyrus 781 never disapered when i installed them years ago in my non treated and non controlled room..

For sure disapearance of speakers is an experience related and coming from the way and good trade-off choices made by the recording engineer...

A mono recording will not sound stereo even in an acoustically controlled environment... 🤣For sure....

But there will be a big differences between a mono recording in a controlled room and in a non controlled one....The mono recording will MIMIC or SUGGEST a more 3-d sound like a sphere in the center and no more a dead surface between the 2 speakers...

And what means "speakers which disapear" for me?

They always disapear at some level and for some degree with all my stereo recordings, why and how?

The speakers disapear when the sound we listen to dont come from the speakers and the sound dont stay between the speakers like a dead body but fill the room, imaging is no more only in the direction back/front or left/right inside and outside the speakers locations, but also in some recording around the listener and in some recording behind my listening position, and sometimes for example voices directly beside my 2 ears like in an headphone and orchestra behind the speakers...

The same recording listened in another non controlled room will not give this experience...

Then it is ACOUSTIC treatment but especially acoustic mechanical control in a dedicated room that make this experience possible with basic box speakers...

All is in the recording?

Yes, but the TRANSLATION of the recording choices acoutical cues are only completely audible in a CONTROLLED room...The acoustic choices of the recording engineer cannot be translated completely in a non treated and non controlled room... Simple...

Knowing that by experience, it is the reason why i never boasted about my speakers or dac and amplifier to be the main cause and main reason of my deep imaging soundstage and listener envelopment experience with an intimate sound which feel like i had headphones with none of the inconvenience of my 7 headphones...

It is not my brand name specific gear, so good it is, the main cause and reason of my S.Q. wonderful experience all time, it is not even the difference in recordings which is big from one recording to another one, no, it is ACOUSTIC CONTROL of the room mechanically tuned with Helmhotlz method...

The main reason of the disapearance of speakers is to be understood by acoustic and psycho-acoustic science not by brand name gear marketing tacttic nor because someone boast about his specific speakers or gear in a review saying that it is the cause...

ANY BASIC relatively good gear can give a wonderful S.Q. experience modulo acoustic control in a dedicated room...

For sure my gear is LIMITED and cannot be transformed miraculously in high end gear by acoustic and cannot beat high end gear but i dont lag so much afar and behind high end experience as publicity and audio magazine want to make us believe ... 😁😊

On the opposite i dont want to upgrade at all because my ratio S.Q. /price is over the roof...Upgrading really will cost me 15,000 bucks versus my 500 buck system now... For only a clearer sound and a better dynamic and a better timbre, but not so much better because i can enjoy music without any frustration at all NOW compared to anything i ever listen to in all my life...

Audio experience is acoustic experience ....First and last.....

By the way all my albums sound interesting now even the worst recording.... Why? Because now i can HEAR all the trade-off choices of the recording engineer in my room and it makes all albums interesting.... Calling them "bad" make no more sense, they are not so well recorded for sure but they are interesting acoustically and musically for their own sake now...

And i dont listen to my 7 headphones now because they cannot beat my 500 bucks audio system in my controlled room , not even for the intimacy aspect...My room give an intimacy experience like my headphones were giving me in the past...But the sound is not IN MY HEAD now but around me and near me...

And anyway no headphone has a dynamic and a bass so natural to beat my modest speakers now....

Acoustic is the key not some chosen well recorded album...I dont pick album for their sound recording quality now... It speaks volume about acoustic control...

When someone enjoy only some recording album because it is a way better album than the others he own, it is a sign and a clue about the acoustic limitations of his room and this manifest in the fact that he cannot enjoy many albums which has acoustic cues from their recording characteristiuc more difficult to manifest in a non treated and non controlled room...Then he pick the best album to enjoy a good sound...All my albums present something interesting, i never chose an album now for the sound ONLY FOR THE MUSIC...

In a word i want to be clear: Acoustic control dont make "bad" recording good one but make them interesting ANYWAY...Acoustic control dont transform my basic gear in high end one at all, but put them no so far behind... THAT IS THE POINT...

Dont upgrade ever BEFORE embedding rightfully what you already own....

 

 

By the way the speakers disapear ONLY when your room disapear...Read it twice and think about it twice...Or the speakers disapear when the room and the speakers are INTEGRATED synergetically by Helmholtz method...

 

«If there is no speakers and no room where is the music? »-Acoustical Koan

 

 

 

NO. A speaker- properly designed - will reveal the recording, regardless of quality of said recording. Many recordings, especially pop recordings or old tech recordings, are awful. Its just like movies, a good TV does NOT improve the way all movies look.  Amazing recordings sound amazing on great speakers and can sound just okay on just okay speakers.    

Brad

Count yourself lucky.  You must have a nice sounding system.  You might consider adding a pair of REL SHO subwoofers.  Their high-level connection allows them to play like woofers.  The trick is to dial them in until you cannot detect them.  I have a source where you can buy them brand new for about half the price.  If interested, I could let you know my source only if you do not divulge the source. 

I have noticed some recordings produce more db at the same volume settings.  I am not sure why.  I often have to adjust the volume on my amplifier downward.  Perhaps this also reduces distortion?  Certain recordings just sound better.  I have a number of recordings I play to show off my sound system.

NO. It’s all about the source.

Assuming your speakers are doing a terrific job of presenting imaging from superlatively recorded/produced recordings, thus ’disappearing’ within the sound stage, like your B&W’s do now:

the speakers ’disappear’ because they become instruments within a wide soundstage, the phantom center and phantom off center being present in the imaging are a large part of why the speaker’s disappear.

as you progressively reduce the effective skill of recording/producing, the speaker’s progressively reappear.

..................................................

balance:

some very involving recordings, the balance is a speck off, a very small tweak to proper balance makes a large difference, everything, not just center get’s refined. best is remote balance from listening position.

note: it might be something in your system causing an inadvertent, perhaps inconsistent minor balance imperfection. My vintage McIntosh jacks were corroded, and very slightly undersized. move one cable, it disturbs another, .... Audio Classics changed all the jack panels to new gold plated, AND, I changed to locking RCA’s on my inter-connects. I think one of the benefits for short runs of XLR is they also are locking.

I still find tracks that benefit from a small tweak, most often on compilations where many different engineers/producers are involved.

......................................

 

mono was mentioned.

I used to use Mono mode on my McIntosh Preamp, but still used my Stereo Cartridge.

I took advice here, glad I did. recording teams, equipment and techniques were surprisingly good before stereo came along.

Vinyl: the best is a mono cartridge, mono lp, mono mode, played thru only 1 speaker. then listen from anywhere. do NOT let your habit of seeking imaging get involved.

Some are only minor improvements, some quite a lot.

Mono is horizontal vibration info only, mono cartridge has no output of any vertical movement. Stereo cartridge will find/pick up/make noise from any inadvertent vertical movement, warp, dust, ,,, there is more than you would think. It smears the content with noise. One speaker, some noise, two speakers, double the noise.

I have a compilation LP, mono, early Chicago jazz. Played stereo cartridge, even via mono mode, it is far from involving, just a history lesson, probably never play again. played with my true mono cartridge, even both speakers, it becomes an involving experience you will want to replay. not imaging, but the distinction of individual instruments is there. played mono/mono/1 speaker, even more involving/instrument distinction.

Totally agree with @zgas-music 

But there is a lot to be said for getting the speaker-room interaction as correct as possible.

What a great question!

In my experience some speakers 'disappeared' a little more than others.

My Tannoy Berkeley's don't disappear at all.

OK, they're better with some recordings than others, but I'm guessing a large wooden box made in the 1970s is never going to vanish completely.

I'm guessing it's something to do with both construction and presentation. Harbeth, for one, claim that the panel resonances in their speakers lie beneath the threshold of hearing.

And they have data to back themselves up.

However, unless a speaker is omnidirectional, I'm again guessing that you will always know the sound is coming from a pair of transducers.

 

@zgas-music ,

Closing my eyes is a must for me if I want to even get close.

It varies. As for those whose speakers throw a wide, deep soundstage, I’ve heard such speakers. They are wonderful but they also lack some of the precision in other speakers. From my experience, which is limited compared to many, a narrower sweet spot is compensated by more precise imaging in the soundstage. Some don’t prefer that. I kinda like it.

Oh, and that comment about needing a good (or well treated) room to do this? Absolutely. 1000% key.

My Spatial X5s throw a wide and deep soundscape that does not localize to the speakers.  Every recording ?  Not sure but on most recordings that is what I hear.

Recently switched from Martin Logan electrostatics 15a’s to vintage Von Schweikert’s VR10’s. The difference in imaging is truly remarkable. No more having to sit in that 2 foot sweet spot! You can be almost anywhere in the room, and still have a great sound stage, it’s unbelievable. Apparently due to the crossover, and rear facing drivers? Placement also doesn’t seem nearly as critical as the ML’s.

I also incidentally have never heard a speaker wherein I can understand the lyrics so well as the VR’s.

OTH, they are quite large, and not so aesthetic as the later models, as one of his earlier efforts. But that’s in the eye of the beholder. And, I didn’t buy them to stare at. 😁 I also just ordered a second Luxman M900u amplifier, as they seem to be really power hungry. But that’s another thread?

Do you listen with your eyes closed? Visual cues do affect the listening experience.  My Quads disappear all the time, but having my eyes open can interfere with that. This was advice I got as a young guitar student going to hear Segovia. My teacher told me to spend a good part of the concert with my eyes closed; to focus on the music and not be distracted from the music by the eyes. If sound comes from the right in my system, for instance, and I see the speaker it can make “disappearing act” harder.

Agreed with other responders about some jazz and pop mixes from the 60s. Big bands with an entire sax section panned hard left, trumpets hard right.  Not much you can do with that. They didn’t start mixing/panning sound stages, it seems, until the 70s.

I’m still trying to get my speakers/room/seating position right, but there are many Symphony recordings and Rock albums from the sixties that sound really really bad no matter what you do.

All the best.

JD