Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy
"Audiophiles are Snobs" Youtube features an idiot! He states, with no equivocation, that $5,000 and $10,000 speakers sound equally good and a $500 and $5,000 integrated amp sound equally good. He is either deaf or a liar or both!
There is a site filled with posters like him called Audio Science Review. If a reasonable person posts, they immediately tear him down, using selected words and/or sentences from the reasonable poster as100% proof that the audiophile is dumb and stupid with his money. They also occasionally state that the high end audio equipment/cable/tweak sellers are criminals who commit fraud on the public. They often state that if something scientifically measures better, then it sounds better. They give no credence to unmeasurable sound factors like PRAT and Ambiance. Some of the posters music choices range from rap to hip hop and anything pop oriented created in the past from 1995.
Have any of audiogon (or any other reasonable audio forum site) posters encountered this horrible group of miscreants?
@amir_asrNo, you don't use terms like snake oil and fraud, your minions do. Just read today's new forum against Audiogon, audiophiles and expensive equipment Audiogon thread critical of ASR. There's the proof in 100+ posts.
Sure you're professional to a point. Your testing isn't up to par for many products including speakers and DACs you have reviewed. If you read all this forum's posts you would know of other review sites with much more extensive testing and testing parameters. I want more data, not less.
Your $20,000 DAC measured poorly. Yet, there are many DACs that are expensive that measure quite well. The sound differences are very significant. Not all DACs are made or measure alike. You got a bad one (design-wise). Now one knows which one it is. I guess we would find out by listening to it, huh?
@kota1 Your previous 4 posts would have earned you a permanent ban on ASR forums. I had a similar attitude to yours on the ASR forums earlier this year. I got permanently banned without warning.
I found the ASR thread mentioning this Audiogon thread. As expected ASR view themselves as the gatekeepers of truth. And they view Audiogon as delusional snobs with expensive cables. I don't think that either side will change their stances and find compromises.
I question why Amir chose to interact with this thread. He could just stay quiet and preserve his moral high-ground on ASR. If anything, Amir is "lowering himself to Audiogon's level". He is god (on ASR forums).
My dream is that someday ASR will bring an impressive and affordable system to Audiogon for people to enjoy. I just think that members on Audiogon want to be impressed with good sound, not schooled with "measurements and facts". Our ears cannot interpret an image of a graph and generate music that way. Ultimately, Audiogon members live in the physical realm. ASR members live in the theoretical realm. The two realms can converge on a venn diagram. Let's make that happen.
I mentionned this idea to ASR members on the ASR forum. I was basically laughed at. The ASR reference system is 100% theoretical. Picture target frequency response curves. Hey, I'm of the opinion that a pair of speakers is better than no speakers. But I'm delusional according to ASR.
"My hi-fi system is so great, it's out of this world. No really, it doesn't exist. You cannot listen to it."
@amir_asr No, you don't use terms like snake oil and fraud, your minions do.
Minions? How is right for you to use such derogatory term about ASR members yet you are outraged when they term a product those names?
You creating animosity for no good reason. How does this advance understanding of audio technology and performance? Why can't you say your "members" speak that way? Is it too hard to be professional?
And what you would you like them to say when I test a S/PDIF cable for $1,500 and does nothing more than a $20 video cable I use? They are supposed to smile and say, "good for them?" You get to be outraged about people on a forum but they should not about such high cost for a commodity performance cable?
Sure you’re professional to a point. Your testing isn’t up to par for many products including speakers and DACs you have reviewed. If you read all this forum’s posts you would know of other review sites with much more extensive testing and testing parameters. I want more data, not less.
Oh yes, there are people who push a button on batch script in the audio analyzer and produce 100 graphs. I call them measurebators: measuring for the sake of measuring. Measurements that don’t provide additional insight into the performance of a product are of no value to me. I much rather test 100 speakers than to test 10 and produce 10 times more graphs just to impress folks like you.
I test some 150 speakers a year. Full anechoic response together with distortion and listening tests. The data is state of the art and verified for accuracy by a number of major companies. If this is not good enough for you, no problem. Just know that without me doing this work, you wouldn’t have any data on most of them.
Finally, what is your reference? Both Soundstage and Stereophile produce a subset of my tests. Their speakers tests are much less accurate and non-standard compliant to boot.
@amir_asr the militia is not nonsense, ASR is not what I call a forum, non conformrity is flamed, shamed, and banned, it is a firing squad. I think you allow it because if the people paying your bills get good information from other sources it won’t be profitable for you, what do you have to say?
Non-comformity is in play every minute on ASR Forum. As I mentioned, look at every review I do and see the volume of complaints about my review. Heck we have entire threads dedicated to people just complaining about us:
As for my "bills," they don't need paying. I retired after 40 years in technology and can pay for my own bills thank you very much. I do this work because I enjoy it and gives me something rewarding to do. Members donate money because they like the enormous amount of data and information they get on the site. Unlikely many other youtubers, I am not reliant on any incoming. This is why there are no ads, or sponsorships on ASR forum or audio science review youtube channel.
People get themselves banned because they jump into a thread and claim to know this and that is true without an ounce of back up. "Oh my ears tell me this." Great. Keep them to yourself. If you want to convince us, you better come with some understanding of how your ears and perception work. Then folks will listen.
And oh, don't get insulting and personal and make false accusations like what I am responding to. This, will earn a temporary or permanent ban.
@amir_asr, welcome to the forum, will you reciprocate and allow members here to post on your forum without instant bans because we have a wide range of opinions that may not be popular on asr as long as we are respectful?
You know, your members simply lose it if anyone likes a component that they have 0 personal experience with, but is simply popular to bash. Is this a dialogue that goes two ways or did you just come here to tell us that you are right and we are all wrong?
The idea objective analysis of the performance of a product is that it no longer requires personal touch. An amplifier producing 10 watts vs 200 watts that another produces is a fact. You don't need to be present, own the amp, run it, etc. to know if that is a fact or not. You look at measurements and see the data. So the notion that only people who can have an opinion about a product are those that own or used one is no sequitur.
You seem to be used to people making up imaginary characteristics for audio which only they can experience by playing with such gear. To the extent the facts like this cannot be verified or depended on, then there is no there there.
BTW, the above attitude did not seem to matter to you signed up into ASR to say that the Audioquest Go-4 cable is too old to sound good even though you had not heard it. And the fact that the cable was introduced 7 years ago.
You went on to say that there has been amazing advancements on cable technology as to make that obsolete. And that I and others should abuse return privileges from dealers to keep borrowing cables and returning them. I responded to you that none of this made sense and that it would violate my ethical standard to borrow cables like this.
You then kept posting and posting with nary a single back up research, engineering, etc. Folks eventually got tired of wasting time and ban came. You are welcome to show up and lecture us but make sure you are sharing reliable knowledge and not just claims and chatter.
Finally, if getting banned is a loss to you, then I suggest next time not jumping into a review thread and lecturing how the world turns when it comes to cables. And keep at it for 22 posts straight. If it is no big deal, then move along. We are not shedding a tear and neither should you.
@amir_asrWell spoken amir. Although, banning someone for stating an opinion is quite harsh, could such in future maybe be solved via discussion or a PM?
OK ... so ... someone claims he/she has a nicer ’soundstage’ after installing an expensive ethernet cable, while if we measure this cable there’s no difference at all in the transfer of the bits and bytes. Or someone else claims more bass extension after upgrading to an expensive power cord ... while it’s inexplicable? These people enjoy their purchase, while others may say they are scammed. How can we live peacefully together?
I have no solution, other than please stay calm. There’s no reason for quarrel between objectivists who solely rely on facts and measurements and subjectivists who don’t discard the measurements but also rely on their feelings. If he/she hears a difference, who am I to deny this is even possible?
It’s like wine tasting ... we can objectively measure acidity and spectrum analyze the exact chemical composition, still people will smell and taste different things.
As long as measurements are not brought upon us as better or worse ’sound quality’ and as long as subjective hearing is not brought upon us as a fact, maybe we can all appreciate each others measurements and opinions and live peacefully together? Without bans?
Have you purchased Topping equipment yourself of the shelf and compared the insides to what is sent to you for testing to ensure they are the same?
Why did you not speak up when 39% of the purchasers of the DS90 owners experienced problems - this of a Dac that you highly recommended? Should recommendations not take reliability into account as well?
Do you think it is reasonable that John Yang comes on your site to rubbish the products of other manufacturers, but runs away at the first sign of a problem.
If your site is not a cult, why have you thrown out members who have differing opinions to products and to measurement than you and your members? This site allows all opinions and views.
@laomanGiven your open hostility and generally confronting and aggressive manner, would it make any difference to you and the tag team here at AG were Amir to answer any of your leading questions?
In my culture we are taught to be gentle to those people who are not completely normal as they cannot help themselves. Consequently I will no longer respond to you. I wish you well.
In my culture we are taught to be gentle to those people who are not completely normal as they cannot help themselves. Consequently I will no longer respond to you. I wish you well.
I understand. Thankyou on this occasion for your generosity of spirit in explaining to others about your own predicament. In psychology it is called projectionism.
In the meantime, others may wish to know the answer to my quite simple question - is that too difficult?
Kota1, the militia characterization is indeed nonsense. Yes, some ASR people use terms like “snake oil” that AG people may find offensive but it it is overall a fair and square site. One has to retain a sense of humor with all this stuff—what would any normal person not bitten by the audiophile bug think about someone who spends thousands of dollars on a cable without an iota of hard evidence that it performs any better than an Amazon basic one. It’s funny, and I can’t think of another hobby where this type of situation arises.
I predict this thread is going to taper off now that Amir is providing such temperate and rational responses to critics who have misrepresented and misunderstood ASR and its “minions” (who aren’t losing any sleep over being called that.)
Non-comformity is in play every minute on ASR Forum. As I mentioned, look at every review I do and see the volume of complaints about my review. Heck we have entire threads dedicated to people just complaining about us:
We will see if you walk the walk then, I will see you on ASR today using this same handle and if you can actually keep your word about and an open debate going without sending dissenters to the instant ban firing squad if they don’t conform to your opinion, no flame wars, just a discussion.
BTW, you never answered my question. Do you keep non conformists and dissenters out of ASR because it might disrupt your cash flow?
Don't ever spend your cash on anyone elses evidence, just form your own evidence though auditioning gear and by using retrun polices, NP.
I really feel sorry for folks like you. Instead of sitting back and enjoying music, you keep worrying about the most mundane things like how your wires sound! Learn to take some things for granted. You know, like how you don't worry about the bolts that are holding your engine together while driving. Base your audio decisions on science and engineering and you become free of such anguish.
I suspect it won't be long until folks like you worry about your sock color impacting the sound you hear.....
Let's see if I have this right, amir_asr has purely altruistic motives for reviewing and measuring equipment. He has no credentials that I have seen for test and measuring nor has he shown any type of equipment certification. If I am wrong, now is the time to show that. I'm calling nonsense on this. No one does something for nothing. Whether he is feeding his ego gaining notoriety through controversy or is making a good sum of cash, he has a motive. The fact that he himself admitted he would not report on a $20,000 DAC that he claims had a flaw seems to go against his very agenda. Are not all of his followers now at risk of spending their money on this flawed DAC? It would seem that his own moral standards have been compromised by accepting equipment from manufacturers to test at no cost. That is different from testing other peoples equipment for them that they own.
Amir_asr makes some generalizations about, "audiophiles" that is not correct.
1) He says that we audio hobbyists in general cannot hear the difference in sound of various gear. And he has test data to prove it. I call that nonsense.
The people in this hobby and on this forum can hear enough of a difference to be willing to invest their time and money into it. Many of the persons here benchmark their systems to live sound either/both outdoors and inside concert halls. Many of us play musical instruments and therefore look for recreating that live sound in our listening rooms. If generalizing that most stereo gear sounds the same albeit cables, DACs, speakers or amps across price points then musicians must be deluded to prefer a specific more expensive instrument over a more basic, cheaper alternative.
2) He seems to think that the people on this forum, with the exception of the trolls and flamers are naive and have too much money to spend on gear. I call that nonsense.
Most on this forum are well moneyed, motivated and successful people with a desire to reproduce music as accurately and enjoyably as possible. The idea that these type of people check their brains at the door and buy the most expensive, shiny noise making baubles they can afford is ludicrous. Most on these forums are skeptical and require verification of genuineness, value and reliability/customer support before buying.
The point of these forums is to help buyers beware. Plenty of accredited journals exist to review and assess the latest technology and offerings. Now and then a manufacturer comes along and tries to pull a fast one on the buying public. They don't last long. Enough people on these forums as well as the industry in general have the ability and influence to put a stop to shams.
Over the years I have seen a lot of "giant killer" companies come and go, or the ones that survive eventually improve and develop a reputation for their products. Reputation is everything in any business. Sure, many will always go for that promise of gold for the price of straw but those companies quickly run out of customers.
Amir_asr has the promise of uncovering bogus gear but falls short in terms of objectivity and fairness. Fairness in terms of accepting that people can hear more than that can be measured. Fairness in being able to counter a conclusion or debate it without a character assignation attack.
I don't think a healthy, civilized society like AG should censor / ban amir or any person like him as asr / amir did to others. But we could choose to ignore him simply because you could not win the argument with a dictator from a third-world community like putin. His seemingly non-toxic statements filled with toxic tone / attitude should always be ignored.
As long as measurements are not brought upon us as better or worse ’sound quality’ and as long as subjective hearing is not brought upon us as a fact, maybe we can all appreciate each others measurements and opinions and live peacefully together?
Another simple but yet insightful observation - thank you.
I appreciate that @amir_asrhas shown up amidst the noxious climate of this thread to respond to the many inflammatory statements. I don't need to believe or refute the information provided on ASR, but I can learn from it while abiding by their rules. For those who can get past the concept that everyone doesn't need to agree or think the same, diversity can be interesting and insightful especially when delivered with civility.
I don’t think a healthy, civilized society like AG should censor / ban amir or any person like him as asr / amir did to others. But we could choose to ignore him simply because you could not win the argument with a dictator from a third-world community like putin. His seemingly non-toxic statements filled with toxic tone / attitude should always be ignored.
This is a good example of how name-calling replaces meaningful dialogue and incites others, i.e., AG is a "healthy, civilized society" while ASR is run by a toxic, third world, dictator like Putin...really? I don’t need to be told what to ignore since I can think for myself. Pass the bong please.
@milpai "decooney, I was not even aware of Soulnote. Seems to be focused in Europe"
No credit due to me, I found the article link posted earlier by @nonoise in this thread. A fun and related read around the topic of measurement and sound, for anyone who may have missed it. Link is underlined below.
@tonywingaLet's see if I have this right, amir_asr has purely altruistic motives for reviewing and measuring equipment. He has no credentials that I have seen for test and measuring nor has he shown any type of equipment certification. If I am wrong, now is the time to show that. I'm calling nonsense on this. No one does something for nothing. Whether he is feeding his ego gaining notoriety through controversy or is making a good sum of cash, he has a motive. The fact that he himself admitted he would not report on a $20,000 DAC that he claims had a flaw seems to go against his very agenda. Are not all of his followers now at risk of spending their money on this flawed DAC? It would seem that his own moral standards have been compromised by accepting equipment from manufacturers to test at no cost. That is different from testing other peoples equipment for them that they own.
Is altruism so uncommon in this forsaken hobby that you assume not a single person with knowledge of audio engineering would do something for nothing? It speaks volumes to your character that you assume people are not inherently good by nature. Would you appreciate such criticism if you were in his shoes?
It's incredible how willing people on this site are to dismantle the character of someone through pure assumptions. Truly a disgrace of a place in my opinion.
@noskeWhat I may lack in youthful exuberance and naivety, I make up for in wisdom and treachery.
So buying cheap garbage that Amir (an old fart himself) is a badge of honor. Guess I will stay over here with the old guys that have disposable income and buy top shelf European and North American Class D Amplification that you can not afford. Clearly as you are complaining about a $750.00 CCP made DAC.
@tonywinga Amir_asr has the promise of uncovering bogus gear but falls short in terms of objectivity and fairness. Fairness in terms of accepting that people can hear more than that can be measured. Fairness in being able to counter a conclusion or debate it without a character assignation attack.
Yes!!! This is the premise of my forum. Amir has no more credibility for his "reviews" or his ASR site than any other and is particularly distasteful to a contrary opinion, factual or not. Character assassination attacks can get one a deleted post or even revoke a forum on Audiogon.
Typical ASR post, this one today by Finfet on the Audiogon critical of ASR- "There are people still believing these BS but there are more who quitely (sic) sold their expensive gears, bought cheap stuff instead, regretted so much money and efforts are wasted and finally started listning (sic) to music, without leaving a voting message in any forum. The process is gradual, slow, but powerful. Manufacturer will take far more efforts to get the same amount of people to believe their BS simply because ASR exists. So I'd say trust in the influence of your activities and don't let naysayers get in the mood.
No proof, just conjecture. Typical of ASR posters. ASR members are self-important and think they can control manufacturers through their site.
@amir_asrThanks for trying man (for those of us that know, the words in this thread are obviously from The Real Amir). I know it gets hard having this same debate over and over. They just don't speak the language of scientific method. And they have all sorts of techniques to try and make it sound like they do.
@smprather You just joined Audiogon so that you could post to support Amir. You've been an ASR member for 3 years and posted 3 times. Wow!!! Impressive.
@amir_asr Well spoken amir. Although, banning someone for stating an opinion is quite harsh, could such in future maybe be solved via discussion or a PM?
OK ... so ... someone claims he/she has a nicer ’soundstage’ after installing an expensive ethernet cable, while if we measure this cable there’s no difference at all in the transfer of the bits and bytes. Or someone else claims more bass extension after upgrading to an expensive power cord ... while it’s inexplicable? These people enjoy their purchase, while others may say they are scammed. How can we live peacefully together?
Thanks. No one gets banned for expressing an opinion. They get banned when they repeatedly try to convince others that they are wrong with no evidence to back it. Member @kokakolia had 117 posts for example before being banned. Member @kota1 had 22 posts in a short span of time with amazing claims of a 7 year old cable is out of date, etc.
Plenty of folks express opinions on ASR with no consequence. As I have said, our aim in ASR is to be able to back what we say. Standard claims of "my ears tell otherwise" repeated over and over again, with whole bunch of talking points thrown in there comes across as "trolling" and eventually we get enough reports to ban the member. Many such members also get personal and upset which accelerates their membership demise.
On PM, we have do that as well when a member brings value to the forum. if you all you have done is join and keep complaining, then you are eventually shown the door per above.
Just saying the tired expression of better soundstage, blacker background, faster bass, etc. doesn't add value and is not evidence of anything. Every audiophile tweak product comes with the same adjectives. Please don't come to ASR and try to convince people the objective data, research and engineering is wrong because you heard or read about such things on the product. We know. We have heard you and others say it. Post that here. Not at ASR.
Finally, purchasing expensive stuff is just fine. I routinely recommend super expensive products that perform well. Many put value on how things look, feel, support, country of origin, etc. What is much less tolerated is when the company makes outlandish claims of fidelity, and measurements, listening tests, etc. show that it is not true. Then, if you are an expensive product, you get an earful.
As an example of expensive product that is recommended is this Mola Mola DAC and streamer at $11,500:
@smpratherwelcome to the forum, I see you made your first post, do you want to expand your audio experiences and knowledge with some different points of view? Please share your gear, your preferences, etc. and I think you will find the process very non confrontational and supportive.
@amir-asr, I forgot to welcome you to the forum as well. Can you please post your personal system, preferences, and what you are trying to achieve? I think all of us here will be more than happy to be supportive in a non confrontational style.
For example, in your review of the Paradigm PW Link (which I also own and AGREE with your assessment, stone cold bargain, great room correction) you shared that you don’t/won’t use room treatments. This would be a GREAT topic to discuss in the appropriate thread. You can use room treatment and then place acoustically transparent fabric over them so they remain "invisible". If you like ARC or any DSP room correction you will find that it works MUCH better in a treated room.
@smprather You just joined Audiogon so that you could post to support Amir. You've been an ASR member for 3 years and posted 3 times. Wow!!! Impressive.
@kota1 Yes, if smprather wants to impart some information of substance on audio equipment and music, please do. Otherwise...
@mitch2 I am not attempting to belittle him (assuming it's a male) but I do find it just as coincidental that Amir decided to defend himself, his site and his view on the audio industry here as a new member while we cannot do likewise on "his" site. I certainly didn't want to start an argument when I joined ASR. All I did was comment on my own experience with the CD trimmer (trial) and I will end up selling it for possibly a 10X profit. ASR members could not appreciate a trial of equipment. And Amir is "hiding" the results of a poorly designed/measured $20K DAC because the manufacturer was "kind" enough to lend it to him for testing. Boy, that's benefiting audiophiles. Not!
I just have to say I love the sound of my stereo system. It has a black background with excellent imaging and a holographic sound stage with fast, punchy bass. But please take everything I say with a grain of salt because I use cable lifters, room treatments and expensive power cords. Oh, even worse, I have mechanically isolated all of my stereo components from any vibrations above 3 Hz. I'm completely irrational. I don't know what else to say. I have no defense. I'm a half step away from tube rolling- if only I could get some tubes.
Oh, and let me add this in defense of my irrational behavior regarding stereo playback reproduction. I played MJ's Thriller last night. It gave me goose bumps on both arms and the back of my neck. I have owned that vinyl record since 1983, or whichever year it came out. After 40 years of playing that record my stereo can still affect me so. If your stereo can give you goosebumps then you are there. Sit back and enjoy.
Amir welcome. So are these negative posts having a negative impact on your collection basket? I know the bad press did not help Falwell or Baker. And who was the guy in Tulsa that said a 900 foot Jesus was going to kill him if he did not raise a million dollars?
Thank you kota1 for those kind words. I'm typing between songs. I just played Eminence Front, by The Who. Can't get enough of that song.
I'm getting old and have been retired for about 20 months now. I am so grateful to have the time and means to invest in my audio hobby. I enjoyed listening to music from college days through my career as a form of stress relief. Now it is more enjoyable than ever.
Was working high stress? Well, I tell people that when I was working I used to sleep like a baby. I would wake up during the night crying every 2 hours. Now I sleep through the night- except for when my shoulder hurts...
Amir,Thanks for coming here and responding in a level-headed manner.I do not agree with your approach to assessing audio equipment because I believe it is too narrow in its focus but I believe your intentions are good and your methodology is sound and professional.The idea is fine but like a lot of good ideas the enforcement becomes the problem.And that is the problem with ASR forum.There does seem to be a hardcore group of enforcers at ASR that seem to take delight in headkicking and kicking off anybody that questions the narrative.In my experience the worst of these are B.D.Woody,SIY and Jim Taylor.Naive objectivism has created a monster.Which is a shame.The topic deserves better.You deserve better.
It’s like wine tasting ... we can objectively measure acidity and spectrum analyze the exact chemical composition, still people will smell and taste different things.
The wine equivalent is the music you play. The right analogy is the glass. Testing is to make sure your gear like that glass doesn't impart it's own coloration and distort the art.
Please don't come to ASR and try to convince people the objective data, research and engineering is wrong because you heard or read about such things on the product. We know. We have heard you and others say it. Post that here. Not at ASR
Interesting attitude. Don't teach us, but we will teach you. Wonder how they measure emotions. As far as I know, no one can measure emotions. Nor can they measure how one person's hearing is different than the next ones. Science has not figured the entire human brain. We are limited with "what we know".
Also research is still going on as to why 2 people hear the same sound differently. There are so many articles you can look up on Scientific America and such sites. Hearing loss, internal/external ear structure, skull structure, etc leaves so many variables on the table that the "measurement folks" simply will not be able to measure - at least for now. For me, scientific validation is good and that is how humans have progressed. But keep your mind (and ears) open to new advancement and simply don't rely on measurements alone. You have a hearing sense that is NOT the same as anyone else's. It is impossible that everyone hears the same. If that were the case everyone would prefer the same genre of music.
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