I too am running an ESL system: 2 Quad 2905's and 2 Quad 2805's perpendicular to the 29's (all modified). I am running an isobaric sub with a 50 Hz cutoff, but frankly it doesn't do very much. Almost all of the bass augmentation comes from Magnepan DWM bass panels, powered by big Brystons (a 7BSST3 per DWM). The 7B's are potent, fast, and clean enough to drive the DWM's flawlessly - overkill, really.
The DWM bass panels use the latest push-pull technology favoured for the big panels. They are very fast - basically indistinguishable from ESL's at 500Hz, an octave above middle C. The stock crossover is at 200Hz, but it's easy to bypass that and do it right with an electronic crossover. The DWM's are fairly flat to 2 Kz and still produce a decent signal at 5KHz, so they are ideal for mid-to-upper bass augmentation in the critical region of 40-300 Hz.
I like them very much. YMMV
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@drbond Yes please, you should. That will be a 60 dB/oct filter which is very slow. You might want to try setting the HPF to 100 Hz and the sub LPF at 80 Hz. I spent years with Acoustats, RH Labs Subwoofers and the Dahlquist LP1. To set the HPF you were given an assortment of caps and the formula for determining the 3 dB down point given your amp's input impedance. I tried every combination you can think of. It was a very euphonic system and anything but accurate. Getting subwoofers to disappear running up to 80 or 100 Hz is not easy. Most have enough coloration to stick out like a sore thumb especially if you have very uncolored loudspeakers.
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@mijostyn
Yes, in the theoretical world, adding a passive HPF around 80 Hz would decrease distortion in the rest of the sound frequency for the electrostatic speakers, but the distortion is so low in the electrostatic speakers, that I'm not sure that it would be worth it, although, in the interest of experimentation, I should try it. However, my next sonic experiment will be adding 2 more subwoofers to create a swarm. . .afterwards, I may look at creating a passive HPF using Duelund capacitors and a resistor in parallel, but that's another project. (And there's no way am I going to get wrapped up into bi-amping the speakers, although I commend you for your industriousness.)
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@drbond Yes is was. I had to add another set of input terminals too the back plate. Dr West was kind enough to send me an identical set. The holes had to be right on. All crossover components were removed leaving the two transformers, the bias supply and the output terminal block. Primary resistors were added to the high frequency transformers.
Initial results sucked. The bass transformer is way less efficient than the treble transformer and the Atma-Spheres have less gain than your typical SS amp including the Bricasti M25 I am using to drive the high frequency transformer.
Then because of the dipole nature of the Sound Labs the DEQX was having a terrible time getting measurements, comb filtering like crazy. I must have tried 100 different set ups. I realized that the only way I was going to get this to work was by blocking the rear wave almost entirely and adding about 12 dB of gain to the Atma-Spheres. I built two of Dr West's SALLIEs (Sound Attenuation for Low Levels of Interference Effects) except mine are 24" wide instead of 12" and 7 feet tall. I will have a picture of them on my virtual system page shortly. I purchased a unit that converts single ended signals to balanced signals based on a older op amp, set for unity gain. I substituted a Burr Brown op amp and raised the feedback resistor by a factor of 4 which will give me 12 dB of gain. I have a set of Burson op amps coming. These are the highest quality available but very expensive. I wanted to make sure this was going to work before spending that kind of money.
The bass control on your sound labs cuts or increases the volume of the bass transformer and functions from 500 Hz down. By lowering the bass you are taking the punch out of the music. Unless you are going to get a two way crossover I firmly believe you are better off without subwoofers. Adding more of them is simply going to increase coloration in the low end. The MAJOR benefit with your speakers is lowering distortion and increasing head room by removing 100 hz down from them. This is more important than the added bass. If you are every up in the Boston area I will prove it to you.
You are stuck in old school thinking, like late 70's old school thinking. You have a great system, but as it is it is extremely inaccurate. The amplitude curves for the individual channels are way different, up to 10 dB in places and anything but reasonably flat, think roller coaster. Get a USB measurement microphone and computer program and measure it. I promise it will set your hair on fire. The benefits of digital signal processing far outweigh any detrimental effects which with the best equipment are completely inaudible.
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Hi drbond, thanks for the question...
This servo sub replaced 2 $900ea Paradigm "Cube" - 10" subwoofers in this small dedicated studio: Rythmik L12 - sealed HT sub (rythmikaudio.com)
Texas to Maine was $629 delivered. This upgrade was months ago and I am still startled on occasion by its speed, depth (room responds slightly to 20Hz test tone!) and superb musicality overall...improving all frequencies...yes, research the importance of an accurate deep bass foundation in audio.
A long-time friend who made his first visit from Massachusetts recently was appropriately wowed. He has focused on subwoofers and their design for decades, including DIY. More info can be found in my posts. The choice for the Rythmik came after much research and the advice of two channel, seasoned, music lovers. Mare on the topic can be found in my posts. Onwards! More Peace Pin (bold print for old eyes)
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I have a talon roc sub which has two 12" woofers it came with a bash 500 watt amp I had thought it sounded good and about a year ago the amp went. I found a triad platinum 1000 watt amp for sale and bought that and couldn't believe the difference it made it was like wow my sub never sounded like that before so a quality amp makes a big difference
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@carlsbad2 —
Of course not - why would you believe that from what I just wrote above?
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@phusis So do you consider the bone-shaking thump of a dance club or the bass in the car next to you at a stop light that shakes your car "natural"?
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@rhg3
yes, it looks like the swarm arrangement for subwoofers was a popular topic about 5 years ago: seems like many agreed that 4 subwoofers was ideal, and that using 4 subwoofers even precluded the need for DSP.
@mijostyn
No crossovers in use: just the LPF on the subs set at 55 Hz, and the low frequency knob on the Sound Lab electrostatic speakers turned to its lowest setting of -6, which I assume works as some sort of low level HPF. I don’t have any DSP, as I did not want to affect the SQ, since the tone of my system is reproducing acoustic music is so sublime. Even when I tried the REQ for the subs, while the bass sounded slightly sharper, it also sounded more artificial, and caused listening fatigue, which I had not previously experienced.
Your bi-amping of the speakers sounds like a real project!
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Another vote for REL and also to swarm subs.
REL subs are truly tuned differently...they seem to add a lot of space and air to the signal and aren't just about thump. They are also very fast.
Swarming has helped eliminate bass nodes.
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@drbond i recommend searching the forum for ‘swarm’ to find threads on swarm distributed subwoofer array.
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@tcutter
From what ai deduce from a cursory reading of that recommended presentation is that 4 subwoofers are best for most rectangular rooms, in most situations. Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
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@carlsbad2 wrote:
One thing i've noticed with subwoofers. there are two types of listeners: those adding subs just to make the bass natural--the way it was recorded. And then there are those who want more bass than is recorded on the track. I'm not criticizing anyone but these discussions go sideways as the two different crowds have 2 different answers. It is good to define which you are.
Due to the nature of bass distribution acoustically in domestic environments I'm guessing quite a few are missing out on what naturally present bass can really sound and feel like, as an uneven and less clean reproduction of the lower octaves is typically gained back to not be felt too conspicuous one way or the other in the overall mix. Making matters worse in the context of subs is poor integration with the mains that will only exacerbate the issue of lowered gain. That being the case there's often a lack of proper foundation in music playback without people really knowing about it, because the issues seem to have been dialed back - but with them the sense of natural presence and fullness of bass as well.
So, I'd argue that what many feel is a natural bass as found in the recording is really not a true indication of such, but rather a more or less anemic version of it. Don't get me wrong; subs dialed too loud with frequency irregularities/boominess, feeling like they're making an effort, marred by overhang and not properly integrated are a nuisance of which one is better off without. However, while the former scenario is less intrusive it's also, potentially, not enough of a presence to be felt truly natural as heard in live music - acoustically or amplified.
The lowest octaves require the most energy to be felt "linear," clean and natural, and for that one needs much more displacement that may at first be anticipated, in addition to efficiency and/or a lot of power. Seeing subs of typically smaller size than the main speakers, even significantly so, is the first indication of something gone wrong here, but try and get that through to audiophiles who'll mostly laugh at the sight of large and/or stacked sub towers per channel claiming that it's way "overkill." What it really is however is exactly what's needed: "overkill" is simply common sense where the lowest octaves goes, as this is a way to ensure proper energy, ease and physicality of reproduction.
I'm definitely an advocate of natural bass, but for that there's no way around the adherence to physics with all that implies, as well of course overall integration.
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I run the Audiokinesis distributed bass array. I found this article, recommended by Duke LeJeune, to be helpful for placement of multiple subs. Tried to post a link but it kept including the entire 30 page pdf.
So Duck Duck Go cut and paste:
"Subwoofers: Optimum Number
and Locations" by
Todd Welti
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Rythmik F12G owner here. I don't own electrostatics, but have Magnepan MMGs. The F12G is very fast and musical sub that has a very good array of controls to match your listening preferences, whatever they may be. Can't go wrong with a Rythmik, IMO. It marries very well with my Maggies. I cross at 80 after much experimentation with 60 (right around where the MMGs drop off) and 90. A 90 Hz crossover made the Maggies sound too thin, 60 was a bit too congested-sounding. 80 was the sweet spot that really crystallized the Maggies and tightened up the bass presentation.
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Of the ones you mentioned, I'd recommend Rythmik. Adding another pair of decent quality subs will help even out nulls and peaks in your room and give you more headroom (the ability to reproduce those low notes with little strain on the sub) when there is deep bass present in the music. More subs can also increase the sense of "realism", that you're listening to live music, versus a recording.
The comment that SVS subs are only capable of "one note boom bass" is inane, or at best, uninformed. I have a SVS SB12-NSD sub in my computer room, where I'm currently listening. It's a small room and it's paired with small monitor speakers (Harbeth P3ESR) and quite capable of filling in the lower register that the Harbeths simply can't produce.
There is no "boominess" or "one-note" character because it's the right sub for the size of the room and the speakers and is properly integrated. It's very easy to distinguish the tone of bass notes. The combination of the small monitors and the single sub provide a very satisfying experience and the feel of much larger speakers without overwhelming the room.
In general, internet direct subwoofer manufacturers are going to provide the best value. The brands that dealers carry have huge markups for advertising and dealer margin.
My main system, which is in a much larger room includes two Rythmik F25 subs (dual 15" with 800 watts each) and two SVS SB13 Ultra subs (single 13.5" with 1000 watts each).
The levels on all four subs are barely on, and for the majority of the music I listen to, you wouldn't know they are there, but they come alive when there is a lot of bass content in the music. Not only that, but they create an immersive listening experience that is more like what you would experience listening to live music. My main speakers are KEF Reference 1, which have surprisingly good bass for their size, but can't possibly reproduce bass that would be in scale with the music in that size of a room.
Again, right size and amount of sub for the room (possibly overkill), and integrated so that they blend well and complement the main speakers.
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I would drop SVS from your list unless you desire one note boom bass
That’s a misleading and inaccurate statement. I have an SB2000 sub, and while certainly not SOTA it is absolutely not “one note boom bass.” Further, there’s a member here who had both the highly-regarded Rhythmik F12 and SVS SB3000 in his 2-channel system and found them to be very close in performance to the point of being almost indifferent between the two, which certainly would not be the case if the SVS sub was that bad. Personally I’d take Rhythmik over SVS albeit at a higher price, but categorizing SVS subs as “one note boom bass” is an over-the-top and ridiculous statement.
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I would drop SVS from your list unless you desire one note boom bass
Instead add Rel to your list. As well as KEF, Golden Ear, B&W.
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@drbond Your speakers are 7 feet tall. How high is the ceiling? If it is over 7' 2" tall the behavior of your speakers drop to point source at about 130 Hz. If you are crossing below 130 Hz it is probably more accurate to stick with the two subs you have, cross at 100 Hz and turn up the volume on the subs. They should be about + 10 dB. What are you using for a crossover?
I have succeeded in bi amping the Sound Labs. Roger helped with the conversion. There are no passive crossover parts in the system. It was not easy going, but the end result is pretty amazing.
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@vdotman
What are your impressions about the KEF vs SVS dual opposed subwoofers? (I realize that you also changed speakers, so a direct comparison may be difficult.)
Thanks.
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I had a pair of SVS Micro 3000's which sounded excellent with the Dynaudio and Graham Audio speakers I was using at the time. Now I have a single KEF KC92 sub paired with the Q Acoustics Concept 300 monitors, and I couldn't be happier. Great bass extension, definition, and the elusive texture people sometimes talk about when describing bass. I really didn't appreciate that until I experienced it first hand with the KEF. It allows one to hear the differences in bass instruments more clearly.
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I think I’m going to go with 4 dual opposed subwoofers, with the first 2 placed in a slightly staggered fashion just to the inside of the left and right speakers.
The easiest/most effective first shot may be to just place them in all four corners if possible as this is probably less likely to produce peaks/nulls. Better yet, put them at the midpoint against each of the four walls as that is supposedly optimal placement — that’s what I’ve heard from an expert anyway, and it’s free to try of course. FWIW.
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@decathlon1991
That sounds like a rather unique solution: 3 high on each side! One of many possible solutions, as the next post by @mrdecibel went from 2 subs to 1.
It's great to hear the variety of approaches hear to 2 channel music. I think I'm going to go with 4 dual opposed subwoofers, with the first 2 placed in a slightly staggered fashion just to the inside of the left and right speakers.
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My single RSL 12S replaced a pair of well known subs, and it is an awesome match up with my Lascalas.
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After 30+ years dealing with so many Hi End subwoofers, I was finally able to rest utilizing 6 JL Audio Fathom 110 subwoofers stacked 3 to the left speaker and 3 to the right speaker. Each speaker is specifically turned to a certain frequency so that the bass sounds natural and complements the speakers. I had plenty of help setting it up from the JL Audio factory team. They understood what I was trying to accomplish. Thanks JL Audio 😊
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I test drove all the major contenders and pretenders.
best I’ve heard : ATC
Here’s the one I bought for my 2-channel “A” system. Highly recommended
ATC C1 Sub Mk2
Under that real wood veneer, there's a hand-built, 12-inch ATC bass driver and 3-inch ribbon voice-coil – which is hand pressed and assembled.
and you'll also get ATC’s standard six-year warranty
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As amp power has gone up and group delay down I think servo based subs have less of an advantage or no advantage really.
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Rythmik and velodyne are both excellent options. I think u want something servo controlled to match the speed of the electrostatic. Rythmik has a pretty detailed write-up on this on their website.
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My local dealer recommended a Velodyne sub, sealed box, servo controlled. So I am on my second one, the DD-12. I really like it and it fills out the bottom end for my Maggie 3.7's. Those are all respected brands you are thinking about. Get one that has room correction that you can override. Then spend time listening and tweaking.
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I have two REL SHO subwoofers. I located them in the left and right corners behind the front speakers. I decided to go with REL’s because of the high level connection. The hook up to the left and right speaker channels and play the woofers to extend the bass smoothly. I am playing them at 40% volume. I do not like the sound of boomy bass. They sound natural and just fill in the bass.
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I have two rythmik F12. One is by the right speaker, the other in the middle of the left sidewall. The time delay of the F12 allows for such placement.
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I’m using a pair of Rythmik subs, F12SE-XLR3 and A370XLR3 amp with Magnepan 3.7i. I use an analog crossover at 60Hz. I started with one and it made a huge difference. A second sub was even better. They give the music a texture and a weight that was simply missing before.
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@mofojo
Since my first pair is balanced force 12” subs, I was leaning towards the Rythmik G22, which is also a 12” balanced force sub. I’ve heard many say that they mix and match subs without any untoward effect. I’m almost more curious to pair with a different brand to either validate or determine if my experience is different.
@gemoody
The crossover would be quite dependent on your own speakers. I have full range electrostats, and currently prefer the LPF set at 55 Hz, although I’ve tried everything from 25 to 55. I do keep the volume rather low, set at 35% of max volume, but I suppose that’s highly dependent on size of the sub, how many subs, and size of room, amongst many other variables.
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As an active learner…anything to say about crossover points? I experiment here, and have a hard time settling on settings…seems to be volume related.
Totem Forest Signature, powered by Accuphase E-380, and an REL Classic 98 sub. Small wood paneled cabin room.
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Others might disagree but if it was me if I liked the sub I had, I’d buy another one or 2 or 3. Lots of people recommend Rythmik. I had an F12 and while it was a good sub I found it lacking punch. I must be in the minority because I do not hear that complaint from others.
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@carlsbad2
Just prefer the natural sound, as I only listen to acoustic music.
@james633
The bass in the listening position is great. Near perfect, although perhaps slightly loose on occasion. I was just going to daisy chain the two subs off the first two, using only the incorporated LPF, and they’d probably only be a slightly different distance from the listening position. This would be more of an auditory experiment, as I’m not sure it’s going to be any better, and I suppose it could be slightly worse, although I doubt it. Many listeners have reported significant improvement with more than 2 subs, so I figured it should be worth a shot. If it’s worse, I suppose I would then compare 2 different brands of subs running in pairs, as an A-B and keep the pair that I prefer.
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I use 4 subs in a distributed bass array (swarm) and have never had better low frequency reproduction.
From what I have read, the integration of the subs is more a result of the interface/crossover and less about the brand of sub used. I have 3 Rel's and 1 SVS.
I use a MiniDsp 2 x 4 HD to set the crossover for individual subs.
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Velodyne DD-10 modded. Alex/WTA
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It’s really hard to see going wrong with a couple Rhythmik F12G subs and along with your MLs should be quite something using all four. FWIW, and best of luck.
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How is the bass in the main listening position? Most rooms only need two subs for even bass optimized for a single seat. More is always better but may not be need.
Far more important is how are you going to control 4 subs? Are you going to crossover to them (highpass) Keep them all the same distance from the main seat? If they are not the same distance time delays will be needed.
all the subs you mentioned are fine. I would just buy another 212 as it is a great sub too. My only issue with SVS is the very high group delay. It might be hard to tune those with electrostatic speakers. I personally would look at Rythmic in your list. The F18s are a great buy, and yes bigger is always better…
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One thing i've noticed with subwoofers. there are two types of listeners: those adding subs just to make the bass natural--the way it was recorded. And then there are those who want more bass than is recorded on the track. I'm not criticizing anyone but these discussions go sideways as the two different crowds have 2 different answers. It is good to define which you are.
Jerry
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