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@simonmoon
Thank you for the information.
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@atulmajithia
On the assumption that this thread addresses DIY speakers in general, and apologies if I am slightly off-subject:
Has anyone here dabbed in a DIY kit for Electrostatic Speakers? I am tempted to build one, but have never built any DIY speaker yet, conventional nor ESL. I’d like to hear of which ones were built and the building experience as well as the sound compared to commercial ELS speakers.
This company located in Australia, has 2 high end electrostatic kits available.
I haven’t heard them, but they’ve been around for quite a long time, and I read some discussions about the end results on forums, and they are universally well regarded.
https://www.eraudio.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=128
And there is this guy, who DIY's electrostatic speakers from scratch.
He posts on various audio forums. People who have heard his speakers rave about them.
https://jazzman-esl-page.blogspot.com/
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I did hear a significant widening and raising of the soundstage this morning when trying a number of new panel placement angles(off axis rotating away from my listening chair). Very happy with the results.
..and I think I have a final design, considerably trimmed back from yesterday. Trim is extended from stock by 1/2 inch. With the round-over it'll be effectively less than that. Just enough to show some wood trim around the grills. But..finishing the SVs comes first.
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@devinplombier More Off Topic
The Local Vehicle Garage I use for maintaining a Vehicle, has a Proprietor who has a keen interest in renovating and modernising Scooters from a vintage era such as - Vespa - Lambretta Models.
In the UK, Italy and even from China, there are supporting services available that have a strong footing in the activity. There can be found many ways to move these forwards with onboard tech' if sympathetic restoration is not too concerning.
A Three Gear Change Scooter with a Max' Speed of 35 MPH, when entering the market if 50' 70's, is today a Five Gear Change, with over 100 MPH able to be achieved. I am confident 125 MPH was suggested can be attained depending on the engine rebuild selected.
When looking at the Design and those little, I mean little wheels, and knowing these Scooters are able to be used on Public used roads. One can only think anybody extending their MPH beyond 30 MPH has a death wish.
Man in Mancave comes up with their design for the fastest Scooter ever, and the follow up is a queue of Boys and their Toys wanting in on the act.
Mind You the fleets of Uber Delivery Workers on Electric Bikes in a City are with a selection of bike owners with modified Electric Bikes, which are easy able to hit 50 MPH, these things are rarely seen pottering along, the usual use makes the bike a silent assassin, especially with the typical user not caring to stop at a Red Light. Crossing roads is a new skill to be relearned and followed like never before.
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I understand what you’re saying. I’ve done a fair amount of research and have viewed a number of Danny’s videos on open baffles, dipoles, baffle width, baffle diffraction..etc.
As for one owner claiming something...good to be aware of, but lots of folks claim lots of things. If they all claimed the same thing then there’s a better chance of it actually existing. With the speaker model being around for 20(?) years, I’d think any tweaks would be pretty well documented by this time. The top trim piece itself is 1/4 of and inch thick. The grill tops are slightly (1/16-1/8th inch) higher than the trim piece. The grills are 7/8 of an inch thick. I’d be pretty surprised if there was any discernible impact of having the trim piece on or off. If the top trim piece has that much impact, I’d think the grills would have far more as they’re square and hanging off the front of the panel quite a ways. It’s very easy to remove the top trim..two screws into the side trim pieces. The side trim pieces(1 inch deep..same as the metal panel and 3/4 inch wide) can be removed by just a few screws. It would take a phillips screw driver and a couple minutes to remove them. This would be a very easy experiment, if folks were so inclined.
At some point I’ll be stripping off all the trim when the replacements are ready. Making the replacements would take about two days if I start with rough lumber and include finishing time. I’ll check how things sound with all the trim off at that time.
I asked Bruce if adding 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch width to the side rails(such that a little wood trim shows when the grills are on) would have any sonic impacts. He said no impact as long as the outside edges were rounded over with a 1/2 round over bit...which I was planning anyway (same as the appreciable round overs used in the Super V build, or any speaker cab/baffle build). I also asked him if I could mount new grills with rare earth magnets imbedded in the trim and grill frame. He said that would be ok also.
The top piece as shown above..I realize that may be a stretch with respect to no impact. I’ll mock up a similar piece and try it out before making something more permanent. I may well reduce it’s size when I start building it, depending on how it looks. I’d like to keep the overall streamline appearance. If I notice any impact, then I’ll reduce it to something similar to what’s on the speaker now.
At some point I’ll be picking up a microphone and doing some testing, but that’ll be after the dust settles with the SV build and new amps are installed.
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PBN audio makes several speaker kits Peter makes some nice cabinets
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@nogaps: One ET LFT-8b owner claims that when he removed the wood trim rail from the top of each speaker, the height of the sound stage increased. I haven’t tried it yet, but diffraction caused by speaker enclosures is a real thing, and can result in the sound stage being "locked" onto the enclosure (rather than floating free of it). If removing the top rail increases image height, it’s possible that removing the side rails may result in increased sound stage width (and improved center fill?).
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Like 'Go Faster' Stripes showing their dominating presence on a Vehicle, creating the sham, this thing in a speed king.
@pindac
When and where I grew up, go-fast stripes were a manufacturer's go-to way to making a humble sedan into a nimble sports machine. That, a pair of fog lights, a displacement bump all the way to an awesome 1300 cc, ridiculous rear-wheel camber and you were set.
Haven't thought about those bestriped family sedans in ages. A few of them were actually legit fast, but most were donkeys in race horse drag.
Kids would swap the stock carb for a double-barrel from the junkyard and claim phenomenal performance increases that existed only in their heads. But the engine would foul plugs and sputter and miss at idle like a real Italian sports car, so there was that.
The more it changes...
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aesthetics is in the eye of the beholder.
Like 'Go Faster' Stripes showing their dominating presence on a Vehicle, creating the sham, this thing in a speed king.
Will the Speaker be improved or any more bearable as an object with or without the intricacies added.
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A rough idea of what the re-frame might look like. The oval on top would probably a carving of some sort. I'm thinking maybe a walnut / bordeaux wine color dyed cherry mix.
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The LFT-8b retailed for $2499 when I bought my pair. I ordered them with painted black wood trim rails; I figured I'd be listening to them with the grill cloth/frame removed, and painted black they kind of disappear.
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@bdp24
I think the retail now is $3900. I paid $1300 and, given how they sound, that seems nearly free. I figured at that price I could move them along if they didn't work for me, but, they're not going anywhere, anytime soon. The previous owner drove them with a CJ pre and amp around 70 watts, so they haven't been pushed hard.
I sent an email to Bruce to ask a couple questions and he got back to me in a few hours.
After looking at the wood trim on the panels, I think I'm going to make a new set and make them a little wider so the wood stands wider than the grill edge(sort of a visual accent). Should be very easy, they're just straight sticks of wood. I asked Bruce about the potential width(increased from stock by 1/2 to 3/4 inch) and whether they would negatively impact the sonics. He said the width would be fine as long as I round the outside edges with a 1/2 round over bit. I'm considering designs and wood species now.
I had an audio friend over today to hear them and he thought they were amazing.
..and the beat goes on..
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Wow @nogaps, a $3500 pair of speakers (with the Sound Anchor stands) for $1450! And no shipping!!
I'm relieved you really like the LFT-8b, I'd feel guilty if you didn't. It's a shame so few people get to hear the speaker, what with Eminent Technology's limited dealer network and zero advertising. Even with all the great reviews the speaker has gotten in print mags, potential LFT-8b owners remain unaware of the speaker, and buy Magnepans instead. For the price of the MG1.7i you can get a pair of the significantly better (imo) ET LFT-8b. Bruce Thigpen really should participate in some hi-fi shows.
I filled my Sound Anchor stands with lead shot, to create a heavy low center-of-gravity for the 5' tall LFT-8. Mye Sound has made his stand design (very popular with Maggie owners) for a couple of LFT-8 owners, and I'm still intent on getting a pair myself.
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@simonmoon, Hi Simon I read with mounting interest that you owned Bagby's Kairos speakers. I design and build speakers and have a friend who asked me to help with assembling the XOs for his pair of Kairos. The components were reasonable quality budget units and the resulting sound I thought excellent and feel they would respond to better quality. After owning them for 4 years he wanted to upgrade. It' a long story with me now living in a different country and unable to help so he's looking at another kit.
Have you heard the "Bordeaux" speakers that you are building? If I may ask, what would these cost, what lead you to these and in what way are they better? I suggested my friend upgrade the XOs, seal the ports and augment with subs but the nagging suspicion there's something better out there raises it's ugly head.
It's a disease 
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I'll be darned if a pair of 2017 vintage LFT-8b's weren't for sale in my hometown, just 45 minutes
It’s a sign
I'm digging the LFTs, a lot
Congratulations
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@bdp24
"@nogaps: I myself almost bought the GR Research Super V to build. Before that could happen I was introduced to the Eminent Technology LFT-8b, an open baffle/dipole planar-magnetic hybrid loudspeaker (p-m for 180Hz and up, an 8" dynamic woofer in a sealed enclosure for 180Hz down). I’ll provide a link to the review of the LFT-8b by Steve Guttenberg below."
DANG YOU!
I've been listening to a pair of LFT-8b's for a couple hours now. I picked them up this morning. On a lark, after you mentioned them, I did a quick a search and I'll be darned if a pair of 2017 vintage LFT-8b's weren't for sale in my hometown, just 45 minutes from me. Price (asking) was very reasonable. He had already sold off his power so I couldn't hear them, but..I took a flyer based on your comments and lots of research I did afterwards. That's what happens when I have time on my hands. Humping the Super V assemblies on and off the floor to the bench a few too many times (while building other parts) resulted in a rather sore back for a few days. So, while resting, I did some research and one thing lead to another.
Anyway, I'm still finishing the Super Vs, but in the mean time I'm digging the LFTs, a lot. They have sand-filled Sound Anchor stands too. I have been listening to a pair of Snell Type As for a number of years. They actually sound surprisingly close to the LFTs in a number of ways. Though the LFTs take things a few steps farther. Very nice speakers. I'm driving them with a McCormack DNA-1, tube pre, Titan ACI sub, and a streamer. For the cost..these speakers are one of the best deals on the planet. They're lovely. Thx!
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Additionally, Phenolic Plywood Board can be found at approx'900Kg /m3.
I own a board of this material type.
These and similar produced boards are not delignified or produced submerged in a high heat Phenolic within a Vacuum Chamber.
Again other Treatments being used that separated a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board from other Board Types.
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Yes the densified woods Permali, Jabroc, Panzerholz are very similar. I have used them all including Festholz. They machine very well but Festholz makes such beautiful parts.
Dial in your feed speed and approach at the correct rpm and you will not have to sand or debur your profile/edges cut when finished.
This is true whether you have 3mm Pz or 100mm on the table.
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I have seen the measured data for other Phenolic, produced using Paper - Cotton, and D/D Properties were poor in comparison to Densified Wood.
I do recall Compressed Phenolics in general share smillar m/3 weights.
I've suspected that the dignified veneer material is the substance that assists with creating attractive intrinsic to the material D/D Properties.
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@kennyc Buying Panzerholz in the UK is at the current times quite awkward, it id for the enthusiast wanting a stash like myself, to pick it up from a Supplier when in mainland Europe.
Permali EV6 which is a 50% Compression as a 25mm Finished Board is produced from 50 x delignified tiers of Veneer.
As a Cross Grain Structure this is equivalent to Panzerholz.
The Material that is being looked for is: Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board @ 1300 - 1400Kg / m3.
I have put links up to these products in the past, there are boards today that have Delignified Veneers of less that 1mm prior to compression 0.6-0.7mm.
As a Cross Grain Construction, these will have approx' 80 Plies to the 25mm Thickness and I class this increase in Plies as superior.
Increased channels for Damping / Dissipation which this materials type is known to be quite improved over many other materials, has potential to be improved over the 50 per 25mm.
I once had access to Damping / Dissipation Data for many materials, I even sent in to the guy producing the data, materials I had an Intertest in, that were not common in use in audio.
Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board is the killer material.
Heavily Compressed Bamboo 3xPly and Three Way Compressed @ 1100Kg per /m3 has received good reports and I have heard a Garrard 401 with it as the Plinth and that was quite special, especially as I have been an Idler Drive user for a larger period of years and used a 9 Stone Granite Plinth with my own 401.
REZYWOOD - gefärbtes, stabilisiertes & hochverdichtetes Ahorn Holz | Designholz
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I specced Trespa a couple of times on projects. It mills very well with standard carbide woodworking tools. The cost was very reasonable.
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At the end of the day don't we all want to become better versions of ourselves?
@duramax747 most definitely 😃
I vaguely remember someone on here mentioning cabinets CNC-milled from Panzerholz for a speaker project a while back.
Considering Panzerholz supply issues in the US, I've been wondering whether phenolic-impregnated resin panels like those made by Trespa, Richlite and others might be worth a look.
I would think density is the factor that matters most to audio applications, but I'm more than willing to learn more. Anyway, ask AI and you shall be answered:
- Panzerholz, also known as synthetic resin compressed wood, is made by bonding beech hardwood veneers with exterior-grade phenolic resin and densifying the panel under high pressure. This process results in a density of up to 1.4 g/cm³ or 1400kg/m³.
- Trespa TopLab, particularly Trespa TopLab PLUS, has a stated density of ≥ 1.35 g/cm³. This density is achieved by using layers of wood-based fibers impregnated with thermosetting resins and a decorative surface, bonded together under high pressure.
Looks like the two products are neck to neck density-wise, which isn't too surprising given the similarities in their construction.
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devinplombier
Thanks for info on Linkwitz. Madisound and Linkwitz store appear to be slightly different so one needs to do their due diligence before pulling the trigger.
I've reviewed the plans and made notes of construction changes I'd most likely make. The overall look/appearance would stay the same but how its put together with certain joinery is what is under review.
Building stuff is more about yourself than the project on the table. It will test your patience, push your abilities and see if you're willing to go out on a limb where the branches are thin, but its where the fruit is.
You will invest more time into it than estimated so your endurance will be put to the test and if you can keep your eye on the prize and put out the best product you are capable of.
At the end of the day don't we all want to become better versions of ourselves?
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@kennyc
Panzerholz is a German product. I think LessLoss Audio used to sell it.
This thread might interest you.
Bit off topic, but I moved to a new house 2 years ago after 31 years in the old one so I completely empathize with your predicament 
Re Linkwitz, not all kits use the same driver complement as the factory-built ones. There are also significant differences in amplification and electronics. Factory uses analog active crossovers whereas many DIYers use DSP.
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Apologies for the late reply, just moved after 35yrs so I’m underwater with boxes of stuff. My garage is packed with boxes 4 high with a narrow path, and many more within the home.
@devinplombier : Consider Linkwitz
I’ve demoed Linkwitz several times. The first it sounded meh, but lately they sounded really good. I suspect the drivers were different. Their top drivers cost 20k, significantly more than I’d like to spend on a kit.
@decooney: If you have never designed or built anything like this before, and have very high expectations on how it turns out - its worth spending up a little more [first time] buying a proven kit with the right drivers and crossovers, with cabinet plans, or explore cabinets you can purchase through the product designer if desired.
Yep, this is were I’m at. The the transducers of upper end kits seem sonically promising
Panel speakers from scratch: I read that Stereophile Herb REICHERT visited Nelson Pass who had a homemade panel speakers that Herb loved. So I wrote down the individual transducers to maybe construct a pair of my own. In my layman’s mind it seems that it’s simple to mount the transducers, wire the terminals, then wire to a crossover (am I missing something). Problem is, besides knowing that they split the signal to run the separate transducers, I have no clue on how to choose and use a crossover. Additional crossover guidance/info/education would be appreciated.
Although woodworking seems fun and enjoyable, I have no experience and only simple cutting tools. So if I do a kit, I’ll use a premade box.
@pindac : The Panzerholz proved to be extremely attractive in use.
I struggled to find online sources for panzerholz or similar. Do you know of a source?
@devinplombier : https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/the-1000-budget-build-begins.430013/
Thanks for the link
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@nogaps: I also don't have room for the Tympani's, that's why they are sitting in their cartons in a spare room.
As for the power needs for the ET LFT-8b's: While they are a low sensitivity loudspeaker (84dB, the same as Maggies), they are an easy 8 ohm load. And if you don't use the woofer, the planar-magnetic panels are an even easier 11 ohm load, great for tube amps. And with no current demands from the stock woofer, a 100w/ch amp is plenty for moderately sized rooms. $3200/pr, a true bargain.
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I just watched the video. Sounds like great set of speakers and mixed with the GR sub system..yikes, Cost is very reasonable if they sound like Steve says. I’ve always liked planar/EM types. Never owned a pair, but I make a point of listening to whatever is available at audio shows. But first! I need to get the Super Vs up and running. I’m a couple days work away form starting the final finishing. Still doing the final surface prep before the first coat of primer, You’ll see the build thread on GR’s AC site. I’ll be running the SVs with a Don Sachs DS2 pre and a DS Kootenay amp. I’m hoping this will be a long term system..but, we’ll see.
Sounds like the LFT-8b are power hungry. I currently run a McCormack DNA-1 (yes..still running wonderfully despite a gloom and doom thread here a few years back). Should do fine, if need be.
Thx for the (excellent) suggestion. It’s good to have options.
(oh, and I auditioned a pair of Tympani speakers..jeez..3+ decades ago. Wow..didn't have room for them at the time though.)
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@nogaps: I myself almost bought the GR Research Super V to build. Before that could happen I was introduced to the Eminent Technology LFT-8b, an open baffle/dipole planar-magnetic hybrid loudspeaker (p-m for 180Hz and up, an 8" dynamic woofer in a sealed enclosure for 180Hz down). I’ll provide a link to the review of the LFT-8b by Steve Guttenberg below.
Since you already own the amazing GR Research/Rythmik Audio Open Baffle/Dipole Woofer system (incorporated in the Super V), you can do what I did and use it in place of the stock LFT-8 woofer. The LFT-8b features two sets of binding posts, one for the planar/magnetic panels, the other for the woofers. Just leave the woofer disconnected, and use the OB/Dipole woofer in it’s place. You may then set the balance between the panels and the woofers with the controls on the Rythmik Audio plate amp that is included with your Super V kit. You will then have a completely OB/dipole loudspeaker that can reproduce the full 20-20kHz sound of music, and at a bargain price! I like Magnepans as well as the next fella (I bought my first pair in 1973, and currently own a pair of Tympani T-IVa), but I agree with Guttenberg: The LFT-8b is better.
https://youtu.be/Uc5O5T1UHkE?si=KdWi2ZuslOZvYSPk
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@tshark "...so how is something that I build (even a kit) going to give me exceptional sound?!"
You off-load the design to someone else. That's the point of buying a kit and not designing the kit yourself.
(..and many high end designs do get it right..you're buiding a straw man and then easily cutting it down..)
gdaddy1..yep DIY appearance can be an issue. Building a set of speakers from a pre-cut flat pack is pretty easy, even for someone with minimal woodworking skills. If you're at all handy around the house then building a set is very doable.
Then comes the appearance-finishing stage(gulp). I've seen many DIY finishes that are very nice, either painted or veneer, but that does take experience and some talent. I've seen many DIY stained Baltic birch speakers that may sound wonderful, but stained Baltic birch..ugh. (to me) One of the ugliest appearances on the planet as birch doesn't take stain well..at all. B-birch can look nice(r), but you need to know how to do it. So yes, appearance is a thing and either you need to have the talent yourself, or you hire it out, or..you do what you can. There's a couple build threads on the GR audiocircle site now where guys with little finishing experience are getting to very nice finishes because that's what they want and they're willing to do what's necessary to get there. Where many people fall down, in any endeavor in life, is they just are not willing to do what's necessary to get where they want to go. Such is life.
..and(not directed at you) many folks excel at coming up with a thousand reasons why things can't be done. In my working life, they were everywhere.(..and they were often boring people.)
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If you build a proven design like Linkwitz's 521 and you stick to spec, you will have audiophile sound in a world-class speaker.
It's easy to spend well over $10K (including amplification) on a 521 build, but it's still a bargain relative to the handful of retail speakers capable of equal or better sound quality, or even to the $30-35K linkwitz.store charges for the finished product.
Linkwitz 521 can be auditioned - look up "Linkwitz lounges". Have fun!
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I guess it depends what you are looking for. Audiophile sound (not just good sound), a neat project (commendable), or trying to save money.
I see it that even high end speaker Co can’t get it right so how is something that I build (even a kit) going to give me exceptional sound?!
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I highly encourage speaker building. It's really not that difficult and is very rewarding and yes, they can sound as good as any commercial units.
One area of DIY speakers that could use improvement is the cosmetic finish. Most of the DIY speakers look home made and not in a good way. Most I see are poorly done.
The world of veneers and stains and high gloss finishes requires very specilized tools and years of experience. These products are NOT available at Home Depot. You can get a decent appearence if you stay with basic finishes. However, you will NOT achieve the level of Sonus Faber high gloss finish. High gloss piano black requires a good deal of expertice.
It seems a shame to pay an auto body shop to paint speakers for the same as the entire cost of the kit, possibly more. It also seems a shame to have a new speaker end up looking like a high school project. Some do OK, but not many. It's a sore spot.
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nogaps
Thanks for the correction, I was bouncing back and forth between the Linkwitz site and Madisound....and forgot to correct my brain. The link was great thank you, though I have NO wood working skills and would have to get the best flat packs available.
I'm still considering building the 521s in the future, as I don't think I'll ever get to the point where I can justify a $20,000 speaker purchase......not when so many magical speakers exist in the $7,000 to $13,000 range
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@vthokie83
The price listed above is in EU, it runs about $6300 US for the kit. Their price also includes the VAT. I think the VAT(usually a hefty %) is excluded for people ordering from the USA.
Madisound also carries a Linkwitz LX521 "kit" of sorts for considerably less money.. I appears all the pieces are there in separate sub-kits(except power).
I came very close to committing to the Linkwitz Orions years ago(2010-ish), but I shied away at the required power options. The current LX521's still require a true commitment (the build, crossover, non-std power..), but it's much easier. I expect the path to an up and running pair of the 521s is well worth the effort. I ran across this build-blog recently on the 521s. While a fair amount of work, the process looks pretty straight-forward.
https://www.afterness.com/audio/lx521.html
At the time(2012) I did pick up a kit to build GR Research's Super V. Long story, but I'm now, finally, building them up. I have the cabinets built(from scratch, no flatpack) and I'm approaching the paint-finishing stage. I'll run them with a Don Sachs pre and power amp(speakers have 97 dB sens, 8 ohms).
Hopefully the Super Vs will be my forever set of speakers. If not, a pair of 521s would be on my short list. It's nice that since Siegfried has passed, his speakers continue to be available. Quite a legacy.
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KennyC
If I had the guts to attempt it, my number one choice would be the Linkwitz LX521, and this looks to be a complete kit with the wood flat pack for $5,350 https://linkwitz.store/product/lx521-kit/
The completed speakers are $16,500, so if the kit is complete it's a huge savings. I may give them a go sometime next year
GR-Research's NX-Otica are open baffle and look really interesting as well for $,3850 with the upgraded caps and foil inductors. I'd love to hear the NX-Treme, but I am not buying 7' tall speakers
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When one builds designs that are the creations of others, what they are building is another's take on what a frequency range and distortion is to be like for a particular audio device.
I have EE friends who have built and measured audio devices and friends adept at building audio devices that have built items that have been measured. Where the results of the measurements taken, strongly suggest the critical areas of sound production that relates to audio fidelity are not produced as a result of the design, not an issue with the actual build of the device.
The same is also known for Off the Shelf Branded Audio Products. Reports in the media have been made showing certain measurements but not all. Suggesting if all measurements that could be taken had been taken and shown, for those who read data with a good understanding, a product would have been identified for their not aligning to what is considered as having audio fidelity.
I like to think my choices I make with audio devices are tightly aligned to what is considered meeting the fidelity of an audio design, being how accurately sound equipment reproduces the original source, whether it's a master recording or live sound in a studio or concert hall. High fidelity (Hi-Fi) implies a high degree of accuracy in sound reproduction, with minimal distortion and a focus on clarity, precision, and realism
I am not keen to have a design that produces a sound that come from a bespoke circuit design which is not entirely conforming to attaining audio fidelity.
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On the assumption that this thread addresses DIY speakers in general, and apologies if I am slightly off-subject:
Has anyone here dabbed in a DIY kit for Electrostatic Speakers? I am tempted to build one, but have never built any DIY speaker yet, conventional nor ESL. I'd like to hear of which ones were built and the building experience as well as the sound compared to commercial ELS speakers.
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Hello kennyc! By all means build a kit! If you choose an open baffle kit,you don't even need to build a box! In a "bought in a showroom" or from a catalog speaker, you are paying for the finish, the labor, the shipping, the dealer mark up - all those considerable expenses. About 20%. if you are really, really lucky, is for the parts that make the sound. There is an ad running in the back of the audio mags: XXXROGX speaker, kit $350 Built $2800. That speaks volumes. It costs more to get that "piano black finish" than it does to buy the drivers (at wholesale - large quantity prices). I have built the Pluto, LX Mini, LX 521-4 kits from Madisound. No conventional cabinets, easy-peezy! Truly excellent performance. Buy the best crossover parts (get them fully assembled if you can't solder). It will make a big difference. You may have heard that manufacturers tend to skimp on crossover parts. I'm always on the lookout for discarded speakers in the trash (in good neighborhoods) and thrift stores. The owners might not have thrown them out if they had high quality parts in them. The best drivers in the world cannot make beautigful muisic if the music never makes it to the driver! Use at least Mudorf KRP capacitors and 14 gauge copper open air inductors. There are better parts but a $200 capacitor does not sound 4X better than a $50 capacitor (but it might sound twice as good). I bought the same driver (5" coaxial, $175 each) used in a very well regarded speaker (reviewer said "the best small speaker I ever heard" - $3500/pair), got the manufacturerer's suggested plans for a suitable cabinet (free), got the crossovers assembled with the best parts ($110/each, Madisound), spent less the $100 for plywood and had a better sounding pair the $3500 would buy (my crossovers were better) with a painted cabinet for less than $700. 'Nuff said?
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I built a speaker for the same reason I build amps — to understand better how they work. At the same time, I’ve been pleasantly surprised how well they work. I’m talking Pass diy electronics and a Parts Express-sourced speaker. All the Pass diy stuff is fairly low power, from 8 watts to about 15 watts. That meant the diy speaker needed to be high sensitivity, and I went with a full range driver rated at just under 95 dB, then put it in an appropriate box that came as a precut flat pack. I’ve done woodworking, but I can’t match CNC machinery precision. You can find everything you need regarding internal volume, ports, resonance, stuffing and other specs online or in one of the speakers building books. A member of our local audiophiles club has the X-Otica speaker kit from GR Research and it is outstanding, not to mention a beauty. (He had it painted Ferrari red — just the paint cost more than my speaker project!), Finally, a word about Mark Audio. Nelson Pass himself is a diy speaker maker. He has designed a small EQ circuit aimed at fullrange drivers aimed at improving frequency response, and I use it. But in a post on DIYAudio, he noted that if you’re using a Mark Audio driver, don’t bother with EQ. They don’t usually need any help, he said. Quite a compliment, I’d say.
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I have built/assembled the Seas A26 and Satori Helios Textreme kits available from Madisound.
In both cases I concluded the resulting performance is on par with commercially available speakers that retail for >3X the price of the assembled kit. They are indeed a bargain in that sense.
The Helios performs better, but it’s also the more expensive kit with costlier drivers.
That said, for those who want a complete speaker that gives similar performance value, look no further than the Philharmonic HT Tower speaker—stupidly good value in the world of finished speakers.
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FYI,
Not sure if this was mentioned but Solen.CA is not only an excellent alternative source of drivers but provide 3D cad design and manufacturing of custom cabinets.
I'm not 100% sure if Maidsound does as well.
Best,
Erik
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As said I have heard Troels Graveson Designs and am impressed with the experiences had.
There is seeming to be the suggestion that Cabinets are to be produced by the DIY Builder.
This is quite askew, most DIY Produced Speakers I have heard have the Cabinet produced by a Machine Shop.
A CNC Machine is the perfect tool to produce the parts to be assembled.
Some CNC Services will not tie one into using the board material.
The the option is to assemble oneself or have a professional assembly, the Matching Service can possibly offer the assembly service.
A Basic Cabinet but well braced is approx' $400
A Complex Cabinet, with chamferring on Baffle and Bracing is approx' $700—$900
Aesthetics are again quite an easy option.
CheapO - Tart the Cabinets Up by ones own hand.
Mid Range Expensive - Custom Paint Coating - 2 - 3 Coatings and Multi Coats of Laquer, or a not too rare wood Veneer. It
Most Expensive - Rare Wood Veneer from a Cabinet Maker.
Range of Cost will extend from $50 - $500
Drivers if acquired New and a Three Way Design will be close to $2K - $3K
Xover if Passive can easily extend from $800 to $2.5K.
A Speaker Design from TG costing approx' $4.5K - $6K using PC Triple C Wire within the Cabinet. When properly Broken In is going to need a Particular Speaker (not any Speaker) approaching $40K to show where it has shortcomings.
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..yikes..lots of armchair, spit-balling going on here from folks that really haven't a clue, but are compelled to say..something, even if it's embarrassing.
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OP
DIY speakers? why Not.
you get to choose the parts and design of the speaker you want. that's good reason
and you get to save money and importantly, it will sound as good as you can get
I have done DIY speakers when i was younger as I did not have the budget to buy any "branded" speaker. it was fun and you get to do what you want
However, .........
what you hear is what you want to hear, good enough, but not for me. why, because you don't know what you are missing unless you know what you are looking for.
For me, people who DIY must contend with the end product they want to build. period, BUT, if they compare what they have done versus say the top brands of speakers in the market, then how will that fair? Note, a lot of R&D has been put into top branded and $$$ speakers. Then how can that Tech flow into a DIY box
don't think so
For me, the closest speaker I can DIY will be an Open Baffle speaker. I will buy the most optimum drivers and design a crossover (or copy) for optimal use. I will not have to contend with the speaker box design or materials used on the box.
IN the end, the final product, I must compare it with similar designs and see/listen where I am lacking or gaining. in my opinion, it's too time consuming/tiring that I rather pay for tech that is already built in the most popular speaker.
besides, if we talk about it in forums, how will other people know how one speaker sounds if it was DIY? I will stick with a built one.
My last point is, if you just want to build what you want to hear, then go with DIY.
just my opinion
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At the end of the day, how much is your time worth? If you are going DIY to "save money", yet it takes you 100 hours of your dedicated time over a few weeks to build them and make them look pretty, is that 100 hours worth it to you?
@moonwatcher
That's why they call it a hobby, isn't it?
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If you have the room and much of the proper equipment to do a good job of building the cabinet, then go for it with one of the established companies’ great kits. But economically, if you don’t already have all that fairly expensive equipment and know how to use it to good effect, then it doesn’t make much sense. Those who do can enjoy the building and view that as part of the "fun". I know a few people who build custom furniture for "fun". Are you willing to put off your gratification until you can get the speakers done and finished in a way that you or your wife are going to appreciate for a long while? But there is something nice about pointing to a great set of speakers and say "I built that."
At the end of the day, how much is your time worth? If you are going DIY to "save money", yet it takes you 100 hours of your dedicated time over a few weeks to build them and make them look pretty, is that 100 hours worth it to you?
I mean, there are people who build airplanes in their spare time, so speakers aren’t a big stretch for those who have the means and the time. If you do this, enjoy and good luck.
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As a long time DIY’s, I would say that kits are an excellent way to go.
From a sonic standpoint, the end results well end up sounding like a commercially available speaker at several times the price (5X is not unusual.
That difference will drop a bit if you buy kits that include flat packs.
If you can live with the cosmetic results, and the lower resale, DIY is the way to go sonically speaking.
My current (hopefully my last*) DIY project is a pair of Curt Campbell’s and Jim Holtz’, "Bordeaux" designs. They are semi-open baffle.
They use Aurum Cantus Aero Stricture tweeters, Accuton ceramic mids, and 2 8" woofers per speaker. I have about $3000.00 invested, but the end results are easily comparable to speakers at around $12-$15K.
Full disclosure, These are not mine, I haven’t decided on the finish yet.
Other sources to check:
Troels Graveson - one of the best designers out there, Has many great designs. His high end level designs are pretty special.
CSS
SpeakerHardware.com - Source of several of Curt Campbell and Jim Holtz’ kits and flat packs. This is where I got my Bordeaux flat packs.
Speaker Design Works - Campbell’s and Holtz’ own site. Their new Anthology II are fantastic. Just a small step below my Bordeaux.
Javad Shadzi is a fantastic designer. His Helios CM designs are a extremely good.
*yeah, I've said that before. My previous pair of speakers, the late Jeff Bagby's Kairos and woofer modules were supposed to be my last.
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Audiogon needs more actual builders and less arm-chair builders. The more people we have with hands on practical experience the better overall our hobby will be.
Word.
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